Does treasure sink in the ground?

[Frankn]

The short answer is NO. There are exceptions like quicksand, but I doubt you are T.H. in quicksand! If a coin is dropped on the ground, a certain amount of dirt is blown on it by the wind. A certain amount is shoved on it by passing people or animals but the main coverage is done by dying vegetation. The coin does not sink,it is covered. If gold, which is heavy, sunk in the ground there would be no placer gold. It would all be at the center of the earth by now. I have been on the beach and seen old coins sitting two inches above the beach on small "sand towers". The wind and tide had removed several inches of sand from the beach. When I dig here in Md. I can tell how long an object has been in the ground by the depth. It makes no difference how much it weighs. I found several objects on a past hunt that were between 3" and 4". I knew they had been in the ground since the mid 40"s in fact two pennies were dated early 40's. I found an ax head,very rusty, at 10+". I knew it had been in the ground for over 200 years. Areas with little vegetation get most coverage from wind and water. All right lay it on me, but back it up!!

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[mts]

Well I don't think that it is an either-or situation. I think that it also depends on the location. I agree that things tend to get covered up with dying vegitation, blowing sand, and dirt. But I also think that they can sink a little too depending on what the topsoil is like. There is a point though where they will stop sinking and any additional coverage comes from the top. Here in ohio we have very little natural topsoil and things will sink down to the clay layer where they tend to stay.

 

[wwace]

Placer gold sinks to bedrock where it will stop, it sinks because of agitation of the soil, sand or gravel in which it resided. Mind you this agitation may only be a drop of water or a river but over millions of years it adds up. Coins and other objects sink for the exact reasons you describe and the action of plant roots and decomposition into new soil. Items on a beach will sink into sand from feet or the wave action. No arguments needed

 

[bazinga]

You should probably publish your observations since you obviously know everything and the rest of us need to be educated.

 

[stefen]

You should probably publish your observations since you obviously know everything and the rest of us need to be educated.

Ace250isthecatsm,

Funny comment

As long as your in the learning mode, rain, snow, ground freeze and plowing may also contribute to coins and metal objects sinking into the ground.

There will be a quiz later.

 

[Cool Hand Fluke]

I wonder if objects in the ground on the east coast tend to be not as deep as objects west coast? North east and midwest states have frozen ground 4 months out of the year, so this may prevent decomposition?

 

[mts]

Yes, ground freeze is definitely a factor that needs to be considered. There is no easy answer that works for all conditions. And don't rule out those pesky gophers!

 

[Frankn]

MTS: There is a law in physics that states- A body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. Believe me things don't sink, maybe get covered ! Ace250isthecatsn: I read a lot and I have 73 years of experience, But I am a drop of water in a bucket of water when it comes to knowing everything. Stefen: ground freeze pushes things UP.! It is known as frost heave. Have you ever seen the road buckled up? O.K. Ace 250 got me! I can't figure out what the"n" on the end of his callsign stands for!

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[extractor]

 

[Deepdiger60]

Out here on Long Island most of the ground is a mix of sand and soil or mostly sand once you remove the plug you can just about dig with your hands , at a relatively new school built in the early 1960,s we find clad coins about 5 to 6 inches deep that includes gold rings and even old silver coins you cant say kids walking over them pushes them that deep in the ground ,each spring you can see the whole field is cracked open by the thaw big enough to let a coin fall into a inch or two our winters here it gets very cold for 4 months out of the year, on the other hand in the same area our fields that go back to the mid 1600,s where i dug lots of coppers LC,s buckles even lead items and lots of iron axes etc. all at about the same depth 6 inches, ok there are exceptions some finds go down to 8 to 10 inches and those were early KG I and KG II coppers i just think the weather and soil conditions have a lot to do with how far items will sink !! and yes get covered also .Dd60

 

[stefen]

MTS: There is a law in physics that states- A body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. Believe me things don't sink, maybe get covered ! Ace250isthecatsn: I read a lot and I have 73 years of experience, But I am a drop of water in a bucket of water when it comes to knowing everything. Stefen: ground freeze pushes things UP.! It is known as frost heave. Have you ever seen the road buckled up? O.K. Ace 250 got me! I can't figure out what the"n" on the end of his callsign stands for!

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Probably stands for not putting up with anyone who thinks he knows it all and likes to talk down to people....

 

[mts]

MTS: There is a law in physics that states- A body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. Believe me things don't sink, maybe get covered ! Ace250isthecatsn: I read a lot and I have 73 years of experience, But I am a drop of water in a bucket of water when it comes to knowing everything. Stefen: ground freeze pushes things UP.! It is known as frost heave. Have you ever seen the road buckled up? O.K. Ace 250 got me! I can't figure out what the"n" on the end of his callsign stands for!

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I know all about physics as I had to take quite a bit of physics in college to get my degree. There is this force called "gravity". And again, I'm not saying that things only sink or that gravity literally pulls things into the ground. But frost heave does impart forces on the ground which includes lifting some soil which causes other soil to fall. If soil is lifted it creates a void that eventually gets filled by the spring rains and the looser soil. A quarter sitting on the surface also tends to sink into any soil that has been turned into soggy mud by excessive rains. Granted, it doesn't sink 6 inches due to rain. But it will sink half an inch to an inch just from a good soaking. And of course, another part of it is that stuff gets covered up.

But I can tell you this... just last week I dug a nickel at 6" in my yard. It was a modern nickel that was evidently lost by a previous owner. I can tell you for a FACT that my yard has not RAISED up 6" in that spot as it was right next to the sidewalk. I would know for sure if my yard was putting on 6" of dirt every few years. My yard would end up being a foot above my sidewalk and that is not something that would go unnoticed. And it wouldn't just be my yard. It would be happening everywhere. If that was the case you'd have parks and recs departments going crazy trying to keep the ground level around sidewalks so that people weren't tripping all of the time. There is no noticeable difference in ground height in relation to the sidewalks in parks so your theory about things being buried solely by top soil is pretty much bunk.

So although I might be able to attribute an inch to thatch and other materials being deposited on top of a coin, the majority of the depth for most coins is due to sinking. There is no two ways about it. Stuff sinks in certain locations. You simply can't attribute depths of 6"-8" solely from "stuff" ending up being placed on top of an item. Maybe at the beach, but not in my yard.

 

[The-Bone]

don't forget the impact that worms, grubs and other insects/animals have on topsoil......a worm burrow will certainly cave in over time lowering whatever is above it

 

[bazinga]

MTS: There is a law in physics that states- A body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. Believe me things don't sink, maybe get covered ! Ace250isthecatsn: I read a lot and I have 73 years of experience, But I am a drop of water in a bucket of water when it comes to knowing everything. Stefen: ground freeze pushes things UP.! It is known as frost heave. Have you ever seen the road buckled up? O.K. Ace 250 got me! I can't figure out what the"n" on the end of his callsign stands for!

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My screen name scrolls. The n then becomes meow.

 

[Frankn]

MTS:This is just a theory game, remember I started this thread, Where we express our points of view. It should be taken lightly and possibly with a grain of salt. A lot of us here went to college and beyond, but experience in life counts more! ---Now lets go! Gravity is an extreme weak force. If it would pull a nickle in the ground 6" in an extremely short time, I would say don't stand still to long. You say you found it next to the walk. I would guess the previous owner used an edger. I said I found a 200 year old ax at 10". That would be 200Yrs.= 10",100Yrs.=5",50Yrs.=3.5" beyond this other factors enter the picture, like surface erosion the decay rate of the vegetation Yes and even THE-BONE's worm theory, wish I would have thought of that one! Now MTS buddy, lets have a smile. It's all in fun!!

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[bazinga]

But you are also forgetting the most obvious thing. Just because the axe is 200 years in age does not mean that it was lost 200 years ago. It could have very well been lost 100 years ago. Back then, items were made to be used. And people would use them for generations. Heck, I've used tools that were used by my family back in the 1920s. So by your argument, if i lost it today and it was an inch deep by next year, then 1" per 90 years is the new rate of grass clipping piling on top of it.

Then there is the argument that the axe could have been lost in the woods where items don't sink as quickly. Or maybe it got stuck in a tree and it took 30 years for the tree to die and then decay into the ground. So many variables.

So, in closing. Coins do sink. It happens.

 

[mts]

MTS:This is just a theory game, remember I started this thread, Where we express our points of view. It should be taken lightly and possibly with a grain of salt. A lot of us here went to college and beyond, but experience in life counts more! ---Now lets go! Gravity is an extreme weak force. If it would pull a nickle in the ground 6" in an extremely short time, I would say don't stand still to long. You say you found it next to the walk. I would guess the previous owner used an edger. I said I found a 200 year old ax at 10". That would be 200Yrs.= 10",100Yrs.=5",50Yrs.=3.5" beyond this other factors enter the picture, like surface erosion the decay rate of the vegetation Yes and even THE-BONE's worm theory, wish I would have thought of that one! Now MTS buddy, lets have a smile. It's all in fun!!

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I understand that it is all in fun. Don't worry, I'm not getting upset.

I think the main issue with your theory is that if coins were being covered with 6"-8" of dirt then that would mean you would see the ground literally rise everywhere. Over that 100 year period that a coin accumulated 8" of top covering you would also expect the ground to have risen that far above the layer of the sidewalk. This wouldn't be a one time occurrence. It would be happening everywhere you looked. It would be a known phenomenon. When was the last time you saw ground raised 8" above the sidewalk? We have 100 year old sidewalks in the area and the effect is usually the opposite. The ground around them sinks due to compacting/rain or frost causes them to heave well above the surrounding ground. But at no time have I ever witnessed a sidewalk that had 8" of top soil accumulation towering over it. It just doesn't happen.

As for gravity, I never said that I expected gravity to "pull the coin 6" into the ground". Gravity is simply a force that acts along with other forces to cause things to sink (as opposed to floating upward). For example, when frost causes parts of the ground to heave, it is gravity that causes items in the vicinity of the resulting void to drop into it to fill the void. There are a lot of different forces at play here so you can't really state a simple all-inclusive theory as to why coins end up where they do. In some places coins barely sink. And in others they sink way out of reach of most detectors. But one thing that I think you can say is that coins obviously have to sink somewhat as you can't account for their depth solely with the theory of top soil covering them.

One more thing to point out, coins and objects do not just move vertically up and down. They can also move horizontally. It has been known to happen. Items that were apparently dropped together are found over a foot apart many years later. This cannot be accounted for by the theory that items are only covered from the top and do not sink.

Take care!

 

[Frankn]

MTS: I think I have a tiger my the tail. This is getting to be fun, but where is every one else? It has been proven that the force of gravity provides equal force on all objects. So you state that gravity, along with other forces pulled a nickel down 6" in a short period of time. Gravity pulls equal so has your house, your sidewalk, the tree,etc. sunk 6" in that same short period of time? If not why not? It seams to me that saying that gravity pulls some things down thru the ground, but not other things violates the basic principal of gravity! As for your theory that things move Through the ground horizontally, that has been around since I was a kid. What force would you say moves them? As a kid, I heard this rumor and it did not set well with me so I buried two marbles 1" apart and app.2" from a brick wall. I painted a red mark on the wall by each marble. Being a kid I forgot about them. While visiting my mother years later, I retrieved her paper from that spot and saw the red marks. I couldn't resist it. I got her trowel and care fully dug. Yep! about 1" apart and app. 2" from the wall!Theory debunked unless that force is selective too! The ax was beside a 200 year old house in Md. It is balcksmith made Half the front blade is broken off. I still Have the ax. Haven't you ever seen the Arches counting the layers of earth to date something? YOUR TURN!!

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[mts]

MTS: I think I have a tiger my the tail. This is getting to be fun, but where is every one else? It has been proven that the force of gravity provides equal force on all objects. So you state that gravity, along with other forces pulled a nickel down 6" in a short period of time. Gravity pulls equal so has your house, your sidewalk, the tree,etc. sunk 6" in that same short period of time? If not why not? It seams to me that saying that gravity pulls some things down thru the ground, but not other things violates the basic principal of gravity! As for your theory that things move Through the ground horizontally, that has been around since I was a kid. What force would you say moves them? As a kid, I heard this rumor and it did not set well with me so I buried two marbles 1" apart and app.2" from a brick wall. I painted a red mark on the wall by each marble. Being a kid I forgot about them. While visiting my mother years later, I retrieved her paper from that spot and saw the red marks. I couldn't resist it. I got her trowel and care fully dug. Yep! about 1" apart and app. 2" from the wall!Theory debunked unless that force is selective too!

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Frankn, now you are just being silly. If you want to have an intelligent discussion then let's have at it. But don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say just to have something to continue arguing about. I specifically stated in my previous post that I did NOT say that gravity pulls a nickel down 6" in a short period of time. I said that gravity has an effect on things and is one of many forces that act on coins to cause them to sink. Without gravity things float in the air. With gravity, things fall as far as they can without resistance. That includes sinking in viscous mud and falling into voids that are opened by other forces moving the earth such as the freezing and thawing of the soil. Without those other forces gravity can only cause a coin to sink so far. And unless the ground is pure soup then gravity is not going to pull a coin 6" deep by itself. But coupled with other known forces gravity helps to get the job done. Athough gravity does pull on all things, only those things that have freedom of movement can sink into the ground. So that penny can easily fall into that void created by the freeze/thaw cycle. But my house stays relatively stable (although some settling does occur) because there is nowhere for it to really go if it has been constructed correctly.

As for things moving horizontally, your single data point does not disprove the idea that things can move horizontally. I do not believe that things move horizontally as readily as they move vertically. And I would even say that things probably do not move horizontally without also moving vertically somewhat. If a freeze/thaw cycle causes the ground to rise at an angle instead of purely vertical then it is reasonable for a coin to follow that rift further into the ground at an angle which results in both horizontal and vertical movement. HOWEVER, proving that things do move horizontally completely debunks your theory that items are only covered and do not also move.

Finally, you have yet to address the crux of my argument against your theory and that is that the ground would have to be constantly rising above the level of the sidewalk in order for coins to end up buried 6" deep below the surface. I have seen a lot of tap dancing on your side but to me this is the nail in the coffin of your theory. There isn't a person around who will agree that it is a common occurrence for the ground to be raised up above the concrete as much as would have to happen for coins to end up buried as deep as we commonly find them.

I think at this point any further discussion about this is futile as you appear to be one of those people who can't accept that he could be wrong. I am not such a person. If I have misspoken or others think that I am way off base then I am glad to hear their arguments and concede the discussion if I believe they have proven me wrong. What I will NOT do is twist their words and completely ignore their points in an effort to continue pushing my viewpoint so that I don't have to concede that I was mistaken.

If anyone else wants to chime in I'd be happy to step aside and hear other arguments on the matter. As always, the world is not black and white. Saying that treasure doesn't sink at all is one of those absolutes that I am not willing to agree to.

 

[ivan salis]

while it might not SINK all the time* with exceptions made for loose watery ground or quicksand type places --it can and often does get "deeper in depth" over time -- from overburden covering it up