Dr. Thorne's Gold

[Crow]

Gidday All

Here is news paper clipping from Los Angeles Herald July 12 1884

Crow

 

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[Crow]

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is 1935's version. It should be noted there are several versions of story in several later treasure hunting books. details varies. I have no opinion either way on the story. I try search to prove what fact from fiction. Writers use creative exaggeration added onto such stories over the years.

One thing we can take from the 1884 article that Doc Thornes story regardless of being truth or not evolved from before 1884. So we can rule out the story just being a 20th century fabricated treasure yarn.

Rule of thumb the earliet version in general will be more factual. I suspect there are earlier written versions out there in earlier newspapers somewhere?

Crow

 

[Crow]

There are several version printed in various treasure hunting books that some claim the indenity of Dr Thorn was Dr Abraham Thorne?.

I did find an A D Thorne Physician in New Mexico, us IRS TAX ASSESSMENTS 1862 -1918

It appears he was there in 1864 and 1869 as well. He was born in 1826 and died on 21 of November 1895.

In the US, General land Office Records, 1776-2015 it appears he had Land in Socorro , New Mexico, USA. Listed as Abraham D Thorn 6 march 1911. Socorro New Mexico. Lot/ tract number 2462.

A D Throne is buried at Composanto Viejo Cemetery Lemitar, Socorro County, New Mexico, United States of America.

Below is information that was transcribed from the monograph "A Cultural Resource Investigation of Two Historic Sites in Lemitar, New Mexico" by Don Scurlock. Bureau of Land Management, Socorro, NM, 1982. Library of Congress Call # F 804 L46 S29 1982.

"Luz Chavez identified individuals interred in the Camposanto Viejo cemetery from her family records. They are, with date of death :Medardo Chavez (1883), Fabriciana Gonzales (1887), Maria F. Chavez 1891), Felix Chavez(1891), Maria de los Reyes Chavez (1895), Adela Chavez Chavez (1896.")

"Other people buried at the cemetery include: Miquella Castillo Chavez(1896), Dona Manuelita Vigil, Jacovo Pena,Dr. A. D. Thorne (buried within a few meters west of the cruz de perdon), Germicendo Benavidez,Amarita Benavidez, Anastasia Baca, Ramon Baca, Luis M. Baca (1895),Manuelita Gonzales & Hilario Gonzales."

Today there is no headstone or cross surviving of his burial site.

Ironic to think at the possibility That DR A D Thorne now lies in A obscure unmarked grave might of started what has evolved into Dutchman legend?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is his obituary dated 22nd of November 1895. It states he was physician for nearly 30 years. that tells us that he was possibly practicing after 1865. The first fort Mc Dowell was built in 1865. So if spent time their it appears from his tax records that in between 1865 and 1869 his encounter with Apaches may of happened? This ties in with later expeditions that followed.

Interesting to note. Fort McDowell, Arizona was established by the California Volunteers on the west bank of the Verde River in September 1865. Situated amid Indian country and surrounded by mountains, the area around the isolated location still contained several often used travel routes. Created to protect the area from the fierce Apache who roamed the Salt and Gila River Valleys, it was built to be one of the most solid posts in the territory.

The camp was first called Camp Verde but was later renamed Camp McDowell after Major General Irwin McDowell, made famous for losing the first large-scale battle of the American Civil War the First Battle of Bull Run.

The fort became an embarkation point for many of the expeditions against the Apache, including becoming the base of General George Crooks Tonto Basin campaign in the early 1870s.

During the winter of 1872-73, nine detachments, using Apache scouts recruited from the reservations, crisscrossed the Tonto Basin in constant pursuit of the Apache. Wearing down their opponents, the soldiers forced as many as 20 different skirmishes, resulting in the deaths of about 200 Indians.

The fort’s most decisive victory was the Salt River Canyon battle in December 1872, when two companies of the 5th Cavalry, along with 30 Apache scouts, surprised a band of more than a hundred Yavapai as they tried to emerge from a cave deep in the recesses of Salt River Canyon. the victory was instrumental in bringing the campaign to a close.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Here is 1935's version. It should be noted there are several versions of story in several later treasure hunting books. details varies. I have no opinion either way on the story. I try search to prove what fact from fiction. Writers use creative exaggeration added onto such stories over the years.

One thing we can take from the 1884 article that Doc Thornes story regardless of being truth or not evolved from before 1884. So we can rule out the story just being a 20th century fabricated treasure yarn.

View attachment 2098303

View attachment 2098307

View attachment 2098308
View attachment 2098309

View attachment 2098310

Rule of thumb the earliet version in general will be more factual. I suspect there are earlier written versions out there in earlier newspapers somewhere?

Crow

Just for the record - "J. Lee Lovelace" is, based on my research, Bessie Barkley - Mrs. John Lee Lovelace - aka "Leland Lovelace" quoted on page 3 of this thread.

Her Lost Mines and Hidden Treasures (1956) is a favorite ever since I borrowed my brother's Ace paperback edition (with the cowboy entering the treasure cave on the cover). She was a very entertaining writer - some of her yarns are more reliable than some of the others.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Great work, Crow. Thorne was from Spafford, NY (born 07 May 1826). I had posted a lot of info on him somewhere else on TNET, too lazy to look up where He married Paula Gonzales in Socorro, but he was older and as far as I could tell he had no children with her (but did have a ward).

Here are the earliest sources I've been able to find in the newspapers on the Doc Thorne legend. I think might be an early/the earliest search, but I've always believed there were earlier stories that predate this 1869 search described by Corydon Cooley. He was with Wood (edit: Henry Wood Dodd) and Banta (Banta was using an alias at the time, Charley Franklin).

 

[Old Bookaroo]

View attachment 2098198

Crow

Crow - From time to time we read about people using silver bullets. It didn't start with the Lone Ranger. These yarns never explain how the silver was melted before it was poured into the molds. Did these brave pioneers and native peoples haul around small blast furnaces?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

The Dr. Thorn mine, the supposed richness of which has caused many a weary step in search of it, is still incognito. We learn from Mr. J. H. Baker, of Salt river, that a party passed that way, some days since, full of hope that they would prove the "lucky cusses" to find it. We wish them luck in the undertaking, and as we are not one of the Job's comforters, we will not suggest a storehouse of disappointment on their trail. We have lived on the frontier for twenty-nine years, and are familiar with fireside stories of fabulously rich mines whose discoverers have withered from the land, leaving no trace of "the find" other than that of its traditional existence.

~ Arizona Weekly Citizen [Tucson, Pima County, Arizona Territory] 28 July 1888 (VOL XVIII NO 28)

------- o0o -------

DR. THORNE'S STORY.
HIS CAPTIVITY BY APACHES AND
FINAL ESCAPE.

His Life Saved by his Professional Skill
Life Among the Indians Discovery
of Gold - His Wanderings
and the Result of a Tiswin Spree.​

The true story of the capture of Dr. Thorne by the Apache Indians and his life while held a prisoner among them has never appeared in print, and indeed, the interest in his career among the Indians has heretofore centered solely upon the wonderful discovery of gold it was reported that he had made, to the exclusion of the details of the circumstances that led up to it.

Through the kindness of J. B. Hart, who visited Dr. Thorne at his residence at Casa Blanca three miles above Socorro, New Mexico, in 1881, THE ENTERPRISE is in possession of the story as detailed by the doctor only a year or two before he passed away to his final rest.

In 1852, Dr. Thorne formed one of a party of seven persons, all Georgians, who left Marysville, California, by the southern overland route, to go to New Orleans. They first proceeded to San Diego and there recruited their stock and placed in good order the ambulance and wagon in which they journeyed for the long, tedious and dangerous trip across the deserts.

They reached Yuma without experiencing any adventure or mishap worthy of note and remained a week. They sold their wagon at this place and up on one bright morning in early spring they resumed their pilgrimage with the ambulance and six horses, making easy stages eastward.

Dr. Thorne had come prepared for sickness and accidents and his medicine case and surgical instruments were always convenient and in perfect order and condition. They were well aware of the danger they run in entering the Apache country, but trusted to good luck to escape the vigilance of the hostiles.

Their last camp was made at Gila Bend and the following day promised them safety, for they were gradually approaching the friendly Maricopas and Pimas and every mile lessened the chance of attack by the roaming Apaches. It was late in the afternoon and while yet a long distance from Maricopa Wells, they were suddenly "jumped" by the Indians. It came like a clap of thunder from a clear sky and the surprise was absolute,

At the first shot the driver dropped the reins and fell forward, dead. The horses became frightened and in turning abruptly around, upset the ambulance; the front wheels became uncoupled and when Dr. Thorne, who was inside the wrecked vehicle, raised his head to look out, he saw some of the Indians making off with the horses.

The Indians took Dr. Thorne and one of his companions named Brown and started in a northerly direction, Of the remaining members of the party he never learned their fate, but believed them to have been killed and it was probably the intention of the Indians to make their captives a sacrifice to their love of torture.

After dark a halt was made and both captives were stripped of their clothing and forced to march until near daybreak, when they reached a stream supposed to be the Gila river, where they camped in the thick brush, securely secreted, during the entire day. They evidently feared discovery by the Maricopas and were not anxious for battle with such a superior numbers [sic].

At night they crossed the river and took an easterly course, traveling two days, when they came to a stream of fresh water, timbered with large cottonwoods in a grove of [sic] which they camped. The Indians here made a big fire and by signal smoke informed the scattered members of the tribe where they were located. Three or four days later the Indians began to arrive from all directions with their squaws and children.

In the meantime there was an Indian boy in camp with a broken knee cap from a recent wound, who made a great deal of fuss while a squaw was dressing the wound. The Doctor told an Indian who spoke the Spanish language, that he could cure that boy.

This Indian informed his chief who sent one of his Captains-- who also spoke Spanish fluently -- to summon the doctor to his presence. The chief questioned the doctor as to his ability to cure the wound and was informed that he could amputate the leg with-out causing the boy any pain if he had what was lost in the ambulance. The chief then arose and talked earnestly to the Indians about him and in less than an hour every article taken from the ambulance, even to the bridles and pieces of the reins of the harness was arrayed in a semi-circle before him. Dr. Thorne gathered up all his own effects and found his pocket case and instruments undisturbed.

The following day he administered chloroform to the boy and amputated the injured limb in the most approved manner, and, to the surprise and wonder of the Indians gathered about to witness the operation, the nervous and troublesome lad never moved a muscle under the knife. This remarkable feat at once raised the doctor in the estimation of the Indians to the exalted station of a supernatural being and old chief Pedro immediately ordered his followers to dress the doctor's feet that were cut and blistered from the long walk over rocks and rough ground; had him provided with clothing; a shade built of willows close to his own camp for his own use, and meat cooked for him to eat. The chief even told him that anything he wanted in the way of food that he could get for him, to mention it; that the Indians could not kill him; that he liked him, and then gave to him a strong Indian boy about twelve years old as a servant and body guard. The boy accompanied the doctor from that time on in all his walks about the camp and beyond its limits, but it was soon discovered that he was a spy upon his movement as well as his servant.

The doctor asked the Indians what had become of his friend Brown, from whom he had parted company the first night after their capture, and the others of the party, and they pointed to the west and said they had all gone with other Indians.

They remained at this camp about a month, supposed to be about the mouth of the Verde, and then they moved camp from time to time always towards the east and over a big range of mountains, and during the summer of 1852 they remained in the mountains. In the fall they went in to the valley where another stream emptied into Salt river -- on the north side, and lived all winter. The boy servant and the boy who lost his leg were his constant companions. He taught them to speak English and Spanish and they learned him the Apache language.

The following spring, summer and winter were passed at another camp about two days travel to the eastward and from that stream and between it and the White Mountains they spent four years. The Indians roamed about an area of perhaps a hundred miles square during those four years. They then went back to the first big mountains they had crossed after the boy's leg was amputated, to bury one of their captains, who had died there. All the Indians moved out of that mountain to another high mountain to the eastward, having a superstition that death in a camp portends misfortune.

In this mountain they made a permanent camp. One day Dr. Thorne went out with his two youthful companions to hunt with bows and arrows, and the boy with a willow leg that the doctor had made for him, accidentally stepped into a crevice and broke it. The Indians thought it to be a bad omen and at once moved camp eastward one day's travel, and camped in a cotton wood flat where the Indians planted beans.

At this camp the running waters of the Salt river could be heard at night. The doctor went out hunting almost every day with one of his companions and on one of these trips the boy picked up a nugget of gold from the bare bedrock in a wash west of some small, very red hills. At this place there might have been perhaps five thousand dollars in gold nuggets in sight. Dr. Thorne was so disgusted with the Indians that he didn't want to have anything more to do with them than was possible and he told the boy that it was of no account.

The young Indian replied that it was good, and that the Indians could get powder and caps with nothing else. Dr. Thorne told him to throw it down; it was of no value, and walked away apparently unconcerned, but from that time forward he took close observations of the surrounding country in order that he might recognize the place again if he ever got free.

After a long residence with these Indians the Apaches and Navajos had succeeded in making a treaty of peace between the two tribes, and the Indians with whom Dr. Thorne dwelt journeyed to the eastern side of the Mogollon mountains to participate in the grand ratification of the event and to complete its conditions. Navajos were to give the Apaches eight hundred sheep for the return of some of their squaws held in captivity, and to forever remain at peace. The meeting was a pleasant one and the exchange was fully completed when, to make the event more memorable a vast quantity of tiswin was brewed and the Indians all got drunk and began fighting. The Navajos succeeded in whipping the Apaches and took away the sheep they had just given them. In the confusion of the melee Dr. Thorne got among the Navajos and subsequently escaped to Cuvero, a little town out from Fort Wingate, and to civilization. He afterwards settled at Casa Blanco, near Socorro, where he married, raised a family of children and finally died in 1882 or 1883.

He made several efforts to find the place where he saw the gold, and bankrupted himself on two different occasions in outfitting expeditions at Socorro to find it. The first time he became snow-blind in the Mogollons and was taken back to his home; on the second attempt the party became disgusted because he could not find it in the White Mountains and would go no further. Some of the old Mexicans in the party contended that they had already gone close to the borders of California and so they turned back when they reached Cibicu creek.

Since that time Dr. Throne was never able to fit out another party in New Mexico, and when the Apache troubles became settled he found himself too old to sleep in the hills and prospect, but was willing to give anybody such information as he could that might assist in its discovery. He told Mr. Hart that he never made an affidavit as to the quantity of gold that he saw; he was familiar with the value of gold in California and to the best of his judgment the amount exposed was worth about five thousand dollars.

He never told Cooley, Woodod [Wood Dodd] or Franklin, as has been stated, that he could load a burro with gold in a day.

This is the story of Dr. Throne. Men have searched time and again for the golden treasure he described; and are still hunting for it, but its exact hiding place is still as great a mystery as ever.

~ Arizona Weekly Enterprise [Florence, Pinal County, Arizona Territory] 5 August 1890 (VOLUME X. NUMBER 1)

------- o0o -------

Dr. Thorne Not Dead.
-------​

EDITOR ENTERPRISE : -- In relating to you the “Dr. Thorne Story,” Mr. John B. Hart, my old friend tried and true, inadvertently perhaps, made a few minor misstatements.

I had the honor of writing up certain “reminiscences” recently published in the Prescott (A. T.,) Journal-Miner, and do not now remember making the statement that Doc. Thorne had said, either to Cooley, Dodd or myself,, “a burro” could be loaded with gold in a day. Even had I said so, it would or should have been construed as simply hyperbole, and only that gold was unusually plentiful thereabouts.

Mr. Hart says his interview with Doctor Thorne occurred in 1881 ; that the Doctor died in 1882 or 1883. Now my “reminiscences” were first published in 1890, several years after the alleged death of Thorne. Therefore the foregoing premises being true, how then did Mr. Hart obtain his information? Perhaps this knowledge was obtained from Doctor Thorne (he being dead,) through the medium of “slate-writing” or perhaps “table-rappings.” So much for applied logic.

Notwithstanding my friend’s asserting that the Doctor died in “1882 or 1883,” Thorne has since that time sojourned for awhile in St. Johns, and is now a hale and hearty old man, or he was but a short while ago, residing at the little village of Manzano, in the Manzanita mountains, New Mexico, east of the Rio Grande and about forty miles southeast of Albuquerque. It will be “fresh news” to the old Doctor to hear that he “shuffled off” some six or seven years past.

To be serious however, I am of the opinion the Doctor saw a quantity of pyrites, and at that time, as he says himself, being “partially snow-blind,” it was quite natural for the Doctor to have been mistaken, in what he then saw and took to be gold. As an instance of the deceptive nature of pyrites, my friend Hart will readily call to mind a place in the Santa Catalina mountains, about thirty-five miles, “as the crow flies,” to the east from Tucson, where a ledge of pyrites crosses a small stream of clear water, covering the bed of that stream with a great quantity of yellow nuggets, that ordinarily would likely be mistaken for the precious metal, and particularly to one suffering from partial snow-blindness.

Pesh-be-chee in the Apache language signifies “yellow metal,” and everything seen by Apaches resembling “Pesh-be-chee,” is called gold. This I know from my personal experience with them. Therefore, the bare that that the “Apache boy” said it was gold, and that the Apaches could buy with it powder and caps, carries with it no weight in the argument whatsoever.

My esteemed friend, “Johnny” Hart, is one of the Pioneers of Arizona, and withal an all-round good fellow, and one of the many old pioneers for whom the writer always holds a warm spot in this heart; within the closets of my memory are stored many very many anecdotes and reminiscences of those old pioneers – my friend Hart being amongst the number.

St. Johns, Ariz., April, 1890.
Albert F. Banta

~ Arizona Enterprise (Florence, Pinal County, A. T.) 19 April 1890 (VOLUME X. NUMBER 3]

------- o0o -------

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27

REMINISCENCES.
Personal Experiences and Recollections of Arizona,

During the Past Thirty-Three Years,

BY A. F. BANTA.
A TYPICAL ARIZONA PIONEER
​

...On the 12th day of July, 1869, C. E. Cooley, H. Wood Dodd and the writer of these "reminiscences." accompanied by a party of Coyotero Apaches, pulled out of the Pueblo de Zuñi on an unsuccessful search for the fabulous gold placers of Doctor Thorn. Reaching Jack Swilling's ranch on Salt river a little above the
present city of Phenix the latter part of August, 1869; here we camped for two weeks after which each of us three went our several ways. Dodd remained in Arizona and engaged in prospecting, trading and serving the government as guide and scout until 1886, when he was thrown from his horse sustaining injuries from which he shortly afterward died...

~ The Argus [Holbrook, Arizona [Territory]] 12 February 27, 1896 (Vol. I. No. 12]

------- o0o -------
​

To be continued...

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

​

 

[Crow]

Hello Bookaroo so fantastic stuff as always.
As we can see the details in some of the later versions vary considerably.

It is good question you ask? Was it possible for Apache to make silver bullets? Well considering the Apache was displaced plains Indians that moved into south west fleeing white encroachment in their territories. In essence their culture was hunter and gathering society. There is encounter with white population gave them access to many things. For example the Spanish brought horses.

As the Apache fled south West they encountered other Indian tribes that grew corn , baked pots and from earlier encounters was exposed to metal working that was done in pre Columbian Mexico.

The Spanish has been making inroads into Arizona. The earliest written record of a significant milling operation in Arizona was for gold and silver at the Lon-goreiia mine (aka. Longuerino or Longerena) in Fraquita Wash near Arivaca (or Aribac) in 1763.

Some antigua evidence remains from these early operations: several large arrastra sites, charcoal ovens and traces of crude
mercury retorts.

What little mining and ore processing as was done in
the 1700's and 1800's was performed by the Indian converts of the Catholic Church.

After the Jesuit expulsion in 1767, another Spanish
government report dated 1774 mentions a rich silver mine
at Aribac. The property was again active in 1857 when
a 20-stamp mill ran intermittently for a few years prior
to the Civil War.

Arizona was full of native silver which is soft. The early pioneers did not need a blast furnace to melt native silver. Small furnace was make by iron age people in Europe which was done with very simple things ready at hand.

The melting point of raw native silver 960.8 C Iron Ore melts at 15860 C. A Furnace made of clay and sticks using firewood can melt and produce iron ore. So native silver heated in A Clay furnace could easily melt in the pure, free elemental form ("native silver")

These furnaces cane be made anywhere. as long as there is clay wood and water and fire.

primitive draught furnace

And here is another clay furnace this technology could off been easily available to local native Indian population to make silver bullets. It does not however prove that Apache made silver bullets or even fired them? As for as we know the stories of Indians firing silver bullets could of just been exaggeration? But it does show it was not impossible.

Here is another furnace made from clay. Utterly fascinating to watch. this was getting temperature to melt iron. So for silver there was more than enough heat. bullets could be made with bullet pressed in wet clay leaving an impression then pour the molten silver into them.

So not by no meaning impossible to do? If the Apache had been firing silver bullets? I was suspect it obtained from through barter from other Indian tribes that had exposure to early Spanish miners who knew how to smelt silver.

Interesting stuff all the same.

Here is an ash lined furnace. Just incredible to watch.

Primitive clay ash furnace

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

... Here is another furnace made from clay. Utterly fascinating to watch. this was getting temperature to melt iron. So for silver there was more than enough heat. bullets could be made with bullet pressed in wet clay leaving an impression then pour the molten silver into them.

So not by no meaning impossible to do? If the Apache had been firing silver bullets? I was suspect it obtained from through barter from other Indian tribes that had exposure to early Spanish miners who knew how to smelt silver. ...

Crow

I've always taken the silver bullet anecdotes to be just campfire yarns, but Spanish/Mexicans knew about adobe furnaces for sure. Even though silver was money, bullets could well be worth more than money at times in those days.

I've never seen accounts relating to Apaches using primitive clay furnace technology capable of crude metal casting, but again, quien sabe? One thing's for sure, they certainly knew what precious metals were and were known to barter with Spanish/Mexicans and early Anglos for what they needed, and bullets fit that bill - lead or silver, all good.

 

[deducer]

Hello Bookaroo so fantastic stuff as always.
As we can see the details in some of the later versions vary considerably.

It is good question you ask? Was it possible for Apache to make silver bullets? Well considering the Apache was displaced plains Indians that moved into south west fleeing white encroachment in their territories. In essence their culture was hunter and gathering society. There is encounter with white population gave them access to many things. For example the Spanish brought horses.

As the Apache fled south West they encountered other Indian tribes that grew corn , baked pots and from earlier encounters was exposed to metal working that was done in pre Columbian Mexico.

The Spanish has been making inroads into Arizona. The earliest written record of a significant milling operation in Arizona was for gold and silver at the Lon-goreiia mine (aka. Longuerino or Longerena) in Fraquita Wash near Arivaca (or Aribac) in 1763.

Some antigua evidence remains from these early operations: several large arrastra sites, charcoal ovens and traces of crude
mercury retorts.

What little mining and ore processing as was done in
the 1700's and 1800's was performed by the Indian converts of the Catholic Church.

After the Jesuit expulsion in 1767, another Spanish
government report dated 1774 mentions a rich silver mine
at Aribac. The property was again active in 1857 when
a 20-stamp mill ran intermittently for a few years prior
to the Civil War.

Arizona was full of native silver which is soft. The early pioneers did not need a blast furnace to melt native silver. Small furnace was make by iron age people in Europe which was done with very simple things ready at hand.

The melting point of raw native silver 960.8 C Iron Ore melts at 15860 C. A Furnace made of clay and sticks using firewood can melt and produce iron ore. So native silver heated in A Clay furnace could easily melt in the pure, free elemental form ("native silver")

These furnaces cane be made anywhere. as long as there is clay wood and water and fire.

primitive draught furnace

And here is another clay furnace this technology could off been easily available to local native Indian population to make silver bullets. It does not however prove that Apache made silver bullets or even fired them? As for as we know the stories of Indians firing silver bullets could of just been exaggeration? But it does show it was not impossible.

Here is another furnace made from clay. Utterly fascinating to watch. this was getting temperature to melt iron. So for silver there was more than enough heat. bullets could be made with bullet pressed in wet clay leaving an impression then pour the molten silver into them.

So not by no meaning impossible to do? If the Apache had been firing silver bullets? I was suspect it obtained from through barter from other Indian tribes that had exposure to early Spanish miners who knew how to smelt silver.

Interesting stuff all the same.

Here is an ash lined furnace. Just incredible to watch.

Primitive clay ash furnace

Crow

Fascinating! Thanks for the link.

 

[Idahodutch]

Fascinating! Thanks for the link.

That primitive ash lined furnace video was absolutely amazing. 😁👍

 

[Crow]

Gidday All

John lives in Nth Queensland jungle. He is keeping alive skills our forefathers once had in keeping alive the knowledge on how things was done. By learning off ancient cultures.

Primitive Technology: Pit and chimney furnace

For us it sobering thought. What if we ended up in situation with no modern tools or technology and had to start again. I will put my hand up I will be stuffed.

Crow

 

[releventchair]

Charcoal and a blowpipe would generate some heat.
So too a teased good bed of coals.
Coal in the Est , I dob't know about West.

Casting roundball / (yes bullets too )wants a well heated mold/mould. IF insisting upon a quality product.
Wrinkles and uneven weights show in early couple castings before getting good heat. Those roundballs can simply be remelted if time is a luxury enough.

Stone molds were doable. Given silver or gold though a metal mold would be worth a haggle. Or a body check on a "sleepy" customer /victim .
For ease of getting a good heat for starters.

Apache or anyone would want a ladle spoon or crucible as well.
Heat shouldn't have been a barrier when given intention.
Glowing iron heating from coals takes coals is all . Hardening and tempering likely familier to folks around mining. With qualities and malleability ruined or improved when temp color gets studied by trial and error or confirmed through education..

 

[Clay Diggins]

A lot of mining experts on here.

So native silver melts at 960.8 C? (in your dreams) No calories involved? Maybe read a better book. 1200 C minimum sustained heat throughout the furnace cavity needed. Impurities? Sulfides? Even more heat.

Apaches smelting and casting silver bullets? Do you really think silver ore can just be heated and voila pure silver is produced? It doesn't work like that. Smelting is just the first step. I'm sure more wild theories about how the Athabaskan raider societies produced fluxes and nitric acid while they were running away from white settlers will emerge as needed.

The Athabaskans (Apache, Navajo) arrived in the southwest just 800 years ago raiding their way down the front range - long before evil white people. In fact they pushed the pueblo people west while they raided their eastern most villages.

Clueless theoretical explanations not founded in reality to prove a theory that doesn't fit any known facts. That's one heck of an invisible rabbit hole being dug. Good luck.

 

[releventchair]

A lot of mining experts on here.

So native silver melts at 960.8 C? (in your dreams) No calories involved? Maybe read a better book. 1200 C minimum sustained heat throughout the furnace cavity needed. Impurities? Sulfides? Even more heat.

Apaches smelting and casting silver bullets? Do you really think silver ore can just be heated and voila pure silver is produced? It doesn't work like that. Smelting is just the first step. I'm sure more wild theories about how the Athabaskan raider societies produced fluxes and nitric acid while they were running away from white settlers will emerge as needed.

The Athabaskans (Apache, Navajo) arrived in the southwest just 800 years ago raiding their way down the front range - long before evil white people. In fact they pushed the pueblo people west while they raided their eastern most villages.

Clueless theoretical explanations not founded in reality to prove a theory that doesn't fit any known facts. That's one heck of an invisible rabbit hole being dug. Good luck.

Depends on date.
When an 1857 stamp mill is mentioned as above , were silversmiths at work during that era? Certainly they were.
Were silver cons nice material to work with? Sure they were.
What you have to acquire them with?
what about alloys? Did they exist in the era of early native silversmiths?

Did they or would they isn't the question as much as could they have.
When is the matter. They could eventually!
Impure silver being cast would matter little in the case of casting a crude bullet.
trading something for lead or even precast bullets and or powder might as well be a measured option. Till you've no lead left!

How many recipes existed to make gunpowder? Was every case of such documented? Heck no.
Is there written account of a Euro using screws as projectiles out of desperation? ( Osborn Russel (sp.) on plains)?
What has been run down bore in desperation over time likely ranges over what was at hand.

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Santa Fe New Mexico and Canyon Road Art Gallleries website links the complete resource for Santa Fe.

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A History of Southwestern Silversmithing | The Cameron Trading Post

The beautiful works in silver and turquoise jewelry that we visualize when we think about Southwestern Native American jewelry are the result of a century and a half of innovation. The working of metal into jewelry by Natives of the Southwest is credited first to the Navajo. The first Navajo to...

camerontradingpost.com

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I've always taken the silver bullet anecdotes to be just campfire yarns, but Spanish/Mexicans knew about adobe furnaces for sure. Even though silver was money, bullets could well be worth more than money at times in those days.

I've never seen accounts relating to Apaches using primitive clay furnace technology capable of crude metal casting, but again, quien sabe? One thing's for sure, they certainly knew what precious metals were and were known to barter with Spanish/Mexicans and early Anglos for what they needed, and bullets fit that bill - lead or silver, all good.

Steve, I too think the early stories of Indians having, or shooting, silver and/or gold bullets was just a good way to spread stories that the Indians had a source of gold in a given area, etc.

In perhaps the first printed "treasure story" that applies to the Superstitions (January 1864), a claim is made that Indians at the Bloody Tanks massacre had a shotgun that was found with a pouch of gold "bullets". (snipping af a letter from John K. Simmons, a participant, attached).

Having cast my own lead balls for muzzle-loading guns, and lead-alloy bullets for cartridges, it's a lot simpler for muzzle-loaders and I think it's safe to say that Indians would have picked up knowledge of how to cast their own projectiles. They would've seen French and American trappers and explorers doing it. But they still needed powder and percussion caps unless it was a flintlock, which would've been used in the early 1800's...then they would just need powder.

That being said, if they had a bullet mold and cast their own projectiles, they probably would've used lead shot, re-melted bullets of the wrong diameter for their particular firearm, lead bars which were carried by most trappers/explorers/settlers, and possibly even pewter obtained by trading or during raids.

I personally don't believe the Apache ever cast a bullet from any other metals than lead alloys. It seems possible to me that they may have loaded muzzle-loading shotguns with chunks of native metals, rocks, nails, whatever was to hand.

Once cartridge guns became widely available, I think these "golden bullet" stories pretty much dried up as fodder for new treasure tales.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

A lot of mining experts on here.

So native silver melts at 960.8 C? (in your dreams) No calories involved? Maybe read a better book. 1200 C minimum sustained heat throughout the furnace cavity needed. Impurities? Sulfides? Even more heat.

Apaches smelting and casting silver bullets? Do you really think silver ore can just be heated and voila pure silver is produced? It doesn't work like that. Smelting is just the first step. I'm sure more wild theories about how the Athabaskan raider societies produced fluxes and nitric acid while they were running away from white settlers will emerge as needed.

The Athabaskans (Apache, Navajo) arrived in the southwest just 800 years ago raiding their way down the front range - long before evil white people. In fact they pushed the pueblo people west while they raided their eastern most villages.

Clueless theoretical explanations not founded in reality to prove a theory that doesn't fit any known facts. That's one heck of an invisible rabbit hole being dug. Good luck.

TreasureNet is a member organization. Let's all find a way to disagree without being disagreeable - that will be a lot more fun, as it will encourage cordial conversation and information sharing.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Steve, I too think the early stories of Indians having, or shooting, silver and/or gold bullets was just a good way to spread stories that the Indians had a source of gold in a given area, etc.

In perhaps the first printed "treasure story" that applies to the Superstitions (January 1864), a claim is made that Indians at the Bloody Tanks massacre had a shotgun that was found with a pouch of gold "bullets". (snipping af a letter from John K. Simmons, a participant, attached).

Having cast my own lead balls for muzzle-loading guns, and lead-alloy bullets for cartridges, it's a lot simpler for muzzle-loaders and I think it's safe to say that Indians would have picked up knowledge of how to cast their own projectiles. They would've seen French and American trappers and explorers doing it. But they still needed powder and percussion caps unless it was a flintlock, which would've been used in the early 1800's...then they would just need powder.

That being said, if they had a bullet mold and cast their own projectiles, they probably would've used lead shot, re-melted bullets of the wrong diameter for their particular firearm, lead bars which were carried by most trappers/explorers/settlers, and possibly even pewter obtained by trading or during raids.

I personally don't believe the Apache ever cast a bullet from any other metals than lead alloys. It seems possible to me that they may have loaded muzzle-loading shotguns with chunks of native metals, rocks, nails, whatever was to hand.

Once cartridge guns became widely available, I think these "golden bullet" stories pretty much dried up as fodder for new treasure tales.

PBJ - Silver bullets are featured in many lost mine yarns. They are central to Nevada's Black Rock Desert Lost Hardin Mine. And in some versions of Death Valley's Lost Gunsight (in others the site is whittled or made by a blacksmith).

Crow, as always, published some very interesting information. I remain skeptical - open to new data, of course.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo