Establishing Facts?

[Mitchell_78613]

I am new to the site and just trying to establish facts on a lot of these legends. On the Lost Dutcman mine, how big is the area that the mine is supposbely in? Has there ever been any verified facts that there was a real mine there? I am super curious about this one.

 

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[pronghorn]

I am new to the site and just trying to establish facts on a lot of these legends. On the Lost Dutcman mine, how big is the area that the mine is supposbely in? Has there ever been any verified facts that there was a real mine there? I am super curious about this one.

A good start would be to read the 100 or so threads
in this part of the forum...
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/board,76.0.html

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning pornghorn: I agree wholeheartedly. *****

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

I am new to the site and just trying to establish facts on a lot of these legends. On the Lost Dutcman mine, how big is the area that the mine is supposbely in? Has there ever been any verified facts that there was a real mine there? I am super curious about this one.

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Mitchell!

How big an area is a matter of dispute; the area in which the mine could be located covers a very large region. Some of the guidelines which help to define the area are that it took Waltz three days to go to the mine and return, from his home in Phoenix; that it was a two-day trip from the mine to Adams Mill, which was located near Florence; and that his partner Weiser made it from the mine to the Pima villages on the Gila in a day of desperate flight partly on horseback and partly on foot. If you use a drawing compass and draw an arc based on each of those three points, allowing a certain amount of distance for a days travel, you still end up with a fairly large area where the mine could be located.

Beginning with Pierpont Bicknell's article run in 1894-5, other details have been added including that the mine lays within an imaginary 5 mile circle of Weavers Needle, but whether this was the diameter or radius is an open question. That area has been heavily searched, including a determined attempt to blast Weavers Needle to dust, it seems probable that if the mine really were in that area it would not be lost today.

As to the verified facts as to whether there was a mine located there, there are no records of a mining claim, no photos of the mine itself, only the statements of persons who claimed to have seen it as well as the words of Waltz and Weiser; and the few remaining specimens of the ore taken from the candle box found beneath the deathbed of Jacob Waltz which had been made into jewelry by Dick Holmes. These specimens still exist, and according to at least one source have been compared with the collection of ores from all known sources in AZ, and these specimens do not match the ore from any known source. Of course some dispute even this, and point the the great variation possible within even one gold vein, and I am only going by the statements of geologists which say that a gold ore can be identified rather similarly to the way a fingerprint. If the geologists can be believed (and I do) then the specimens from Waltz at least indicate that an unknown source of very rich gold ore exists. When we then consider that Waltz himself, speaking to his friends (Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch) pointed at the Superstitions mountains and told them the mine is there, in my own opinion we have a real lost gold mine. Waltz also sold a sizable amount of very rich gold ore when he used the proceeds to bail out his friends Julia and Reiney when she was about to lose her business, and other witnesses (held in doubt by some) reported seeing Waltz sell rich gold ore in Florence and other points, mostly in small amounts.

I would suggest picking up a copy of the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely; Ely interviewed several of the people who knew Waltz personally and spent years in the search himself, also Dr Thomas Glover's book The Golden Dream, The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz pt I, Dr Glover is as far as I know the only person in modern times to have done any actual testing of the famous ore specimens, and The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, wife of famed AZ Attorney General Robert (Bob) Corbin and veteran Dutch hunter; Helen was privy to much information and maps etc and did much research into this legend.

Several of our fellow members here have a vast wealth of experience and knowledge of this legend as well as the Superstition mountains, and would be happy to help you with any questions you might have. I look forward to your posts, again welcome Mitchell and I hope you have a very pleasant day.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

As an alternative, I suggeest that you work on Oro, he has data that has never been made public. Of course if you can fill out a Bikini the way a Bikini was meant to be filled out, it would give you an edge -- he is Oirish -- providing Beth wasn't around. However, since you signed in as Mitchell, that edge is gone.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

he has data that has never been made public

AHA!!! So the truth comes out - Oro's been holding out on us all along!! Cmon man, spill it

 

[natchitoches]

maybe it was only 1 day to the mine. and one day back
and he rested for one day.?

 

[pronghorn]

maybe it was only 1 day to the mine. and one day back
and he rested for one day.?

rested, or worked the mine, or dug up a cache
brought from somewhere else completely, or a
thousand other maybe's

 

[Oroblanco]

As an alternative, I suggeest that you work on Oro, he has data that has never been made public. Of course if you can fill out a Bikini the way a Bikini was meant to be filled out, it would give you an edge -- he is Oirish -- providing Beth wasn't around. However, since you signed in as Mitchell, that edge is gone.

Don Jose de La Mancha

and Cubfan wrote

he has data that has never been made public

AHA!!! So the truth comes out - Oro's been holding out on us all along!! Cmon man, spill it

I am pretty sure that many others here have a great deal of information that has never been made public. However, if I had any info that precisely pinpointed the location of the Lost Dutchman gold mine, would I be living in SD?

BTW Don Jose - a bikini amigo? I don't think I would look too great in a bikini. What would I do with a bikini? Please explain, and feel free to post photographs to illustrate your explanations, thank you in advance.

Sign me mystified,
Oroblanco

Coffee anyone?

 

[Mitchell_78613]

Thats what I meant, just like a summary of what is known so far about it. A summary of what has been down to this point. Has anyone fromt his site, went on a search for it? How hard was the terrain? how much gold is supposbaley there?

 

[Oroblanco]

Thats what I meant, just like a summary of what is known so far about it. A summary of what has been down to this point. Has anyone fromt his site, went on a search for it? How hard was the terrain? how much gold is supposbaley there?

Howdy pard!
Quite a few of your fellow members here have made at least one search for the lost Dutchman's mine, including myself and Mrs Oro. It is a very challenging lost mine to search for, in part due to the remoteness and ruggedness of the terrain, partly due to government restrictions on the area designated as "wilderness" and in part due to the fact that Jacob Waltz himself went to some lengths to conceal the mine. He was quoted as having told his friend, young Reiney Petrasch, quote

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

<Apparently Reiney did not listen well for he never found the mine and ended up committing suicide.>

As to how rough the terrain is, it has been described as 'desert standing on end' and as some of the roughest terrain on the planet. I have to agree with both descriptions. It is extremely rough and rugged, vertical craggy rock mountains with a wild tangle of thousands of small and equally rough side canyons. Quite a few people have died in the Superstition mountains, some were searching for the lost mine and others were just unlucky hikers. It is not a place to be flippant or foolish.

Here is a peek at the "front" view, which will give you an idea of what we are talking about.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Mitchell - on how much gold remains in the mine, no one knows for sure; when Waltz was accused of having discovered only a rich pocket of high grade ore, he adamantly insisted that there was enough gold left in his mine, showing in sight, to make millionaires of twenty men; as gold was then at $20.67 per ounce, he was in effect saying that you could see a million ounces of raw gold still in the mine. At today's prices, it would be over a billion dollars showing, if this is true and no one has found the mine and removed much of the gold. It seems very unlikely that anyone has found the mine for the gold output would have made some ripples and the mine would not be lost.

Also there are as you can see some members here who claim to have found the LDM; we are waiting to see the evidence that would prove these claims.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

i have been a little closed mouth about directions havent i ...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BB, you posted -->i have been a little closed mouth about directions havent i
*************
Agreed, if you have nothing, it is the best procedure. snicker.

dDon Jose de La Mancha .

 

[Blindbowman]

HI BB, you posted -->i have been a little closed mouth about directions havent i
*************
Agreed, if you have nothing, it is the best procedure. snicker.

dDon Jose de La Mancha .

the lost dutchman legend is nothing but bushwackers and crazys .