French and Indian to Revolutionary War Cross Belt Plate

[smokeythecat]

I found this a few weeks ago, just now found the adapter to the camera to get it uploaded. It is a French and Indian War to Revolutionary War period Cross belt plate. It is a little wider than what would become the standard type War of 1812 belt plate.

Made of sand cast brass, it has clipped corners and each side of the plate has been carefully beveled, to ensure it wouldn't snag on anything while worn. 4 of the 6 little attachments on the back are intact. The belt they would have gone into (for comparison reasons) a standard man's belt of today.

It was found at the site of an early 18th century house. About 2.75" x 3.5".

View attachment IMG_0177.jpg View attachment IMG_0178.jpg

 

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[Peyton Manning]

some people live near all the history, and some of us live in indiana and have to drive to it

 

[dfallis1]

Great Find! Where you found it at is unbelievable. Most obvious but no one picked up on it. Nice save

 

[smokeythecat]

Was at an organized dig and no lie, there were several sets of footprints ON IT. Was less than 2" deep. Nearly had a cow when it came out of the ground. No preservation was required. Shown as found, less a little soap and water. Did sound something like a big aluminum can, but just a little bit deeper tone to it. Never would have guessed.

 

[Steve in PA]

Most advanced collectors such as Don Troiani and George Juno will tell you that is a trunk plate. Check out this thread and keep in mind that Vonrall is actually Don Troiani. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/revolutionary-war/229566-trunk-plates-time-re-examine.html

it's not what we want to hear....cross belt plate sounds way better. Here's one I dug. It has six hooks on the back like yours.

 

[Iron Patch]

Most advanced collectors such as Don Troiani and George Juno will tell you that is a trunk plate. Check out this thread and keep in mind that Vonrall is actually Don Troiani. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/revolutionary-war/229566-trunk-plates-time-re-examine.html

it's not what we want to hear....cross belt plate sounds way better. Here's one I dug. It has six hooks on the back like yours.

I have the same plate and posted it on a previous thread in response to th suggestion it's a cross belt plate. It certainly was a great little site I dug mine... even made the banner... but had nothing French and Indian War era. Ironhorse also dug one the following hunt... and we have had some lucky days over the years but never that lucky to dig two belt plates back to back off the same site!

 

[Steve in PA]

I have the same plate and posted it on a previous thread in response to th suggestion it's a cross belt plate. It certainly was a great little site I dug mine... even made the banner... but had nothing French and Indian War era. Ironhorse also dug one the following hunt... and we have had some lucky days over the years but never that lucky to dig two belt plates back to back off the same site!

Wait a minute...you have the same plate as me or as the OP? I dug mine in Antigua were an old town dating back to the 17th century through the 18th century was wiped off the map by a hurricane.

 

[Iron Patch]

Wait a minute...you have the same plate as me or as the OP? I dug mine in Antigua were an old town dating back to the 17th century through the 18th century was wiped off the map by a hurricane.

Same as the OP. My post was saying I'm in agreement with you. There's tons of misc. lettered and engraved trunk or horse brass plates that are dug, especially in the UK.

Also just to clarify my above post.. it was not the plate that made the banner for me, it was a button from the same site.

 

[smokeythecat]

The plates made for horsies had longer hooks on the back, as the leather for the horsies was thicker. Plates made for trunks had all together different attachments, as they had to be fixed to wood, and had to stay there. My hooks are 1/8" high. Not even high enough to go through formica. Definitely for human sized belts. The telling is in the hooks and the finishing.

A broad statement alleging all cast brass plates before the Civil War period were made for FURNITURE is just plain not right.

It's like saying all cannon balls were made for the Civil War. Not. There were in use for a few hundred years BEFORE 1861.

 

[Steve in PA]

The plates made for horsies had longer hooks on the back, as the leather for the horsies was thicker. Plates made for trunks had all together different attachments, as they had to be fixed to wood, and had to stay there. My hooks are 1/8" high. Not even high enough to go through formica. Definitely for human sized belts. The telling is in the hooks and the finishing.

A broad statement alleging all cast brass plates before the Civil War period were made for FURNITURE is just plain not right.

It's like saying all cannon balls were made for the Civil War. Not. There were in use for a few hundred years BEFORE 1861.

I have some problems with the trunk plate theory myself, I'm just saying that discussion on these plates have been beat into the ground and you will never convince some people until you produce a period portrait of someone wearing one as a cross belt plate. I personally saw one engraved with a West Indies Regiment when I was in Antigua.

 

[smokeythecat]

That's ok, I'll never get to Antigua.

 

[CRUSADER]

The plates made for horsies had longer hooks on the back, as the leather for the horsies was thicker. Plates made for trunks had all together different attachments, as they had to be fixed to wood, and had to stay there. My hooks are 1/8" high. Not even high enough to go through formica. Definitely for human sized belts. The telling is in the hooks and the finishing.

A broad statement alleging all cast brass plates before the Civil War period were made for FURNITURE is just plain not right.

It's like saying all cannon balls were made for the Civil War. Not. There were in use for a few hundred years BEFORE 1861.

I've seen similar attached to leather that went on trunks.

 

[sutphin]

THE ONLY BELT I EVER FOUND WAS WHEN I SASSED THE OLE MAN. AWESOME FIND ...

 

[smokeythecat]

I was at the big Baltimore Antique Arms show this weekend and showed the plate to some of the BIGGEST Civil War and earlier dealers in the nation. Each confirmed this particular one was meant to be worn for a person. We discussed the "trunk" theory. One dealer did have some for trunks, they were made differently. They noted the hooks on the back of mine were totally unsuitable for wood (or a leather covered wood chest) and would have quickly failed if put on a chest, due to their size and manufacture. I've also seen some of the "what I have is gold and what you have is dirt" attitude in the "professional" collectors circles for years. They think your piece is ok, will try to get a colleague to purchase it for them for little of nothing, and you get the short end of the stick in the meantime. There are at least three of these "big" dealers I will not even talk to anymore because of their practices I have personally witnessed, now please note I did not give out any names or areas of expertise. And won't.

 

[DetectingGodlikeOnOlympus]

Nice finds!

 

[smokeythecat]

Bump for comparison to the newest found plate.

 

[tamrock]

some people live near all the history, and some of us live in indiana and have to drive to it

I have history in Indiana. Great, great, great grandma and grandpa died there. Great great grandpa and great grandpa were both born there.

 

[smokeythecat]

Yes, Indiana history goes way, way back. I did the genealogy for a friend who lives in St. Louis, and one of her ancestors, a Frenchman, died in Indiana about 1574. They had come across the great lakes as explorers. Now THAT's early!

 

[A2coins]

Great find and good that you confirmed the ID nice relic for sure

 

[smokeythecat]

Thanks A2Coins. Plates of any kind are not easy finds, but they sometimes show up in the oddest places.