Gold, lies, & Video tape , What do you think?

[Garypederson]

The man did claim to have found this bar in NM in the vicinity of Victorio Peak 20 years ago. He had said he had a similiar bar assayed in CO and it showed as gold and was confiscated under antiquities act. That I am spectical of. I actually drilled a small hole in this bar and had the shavings XRP which showed the results posted above. I wasn't convinced a scaping would be as accurate as shavings from the center of the bar. There were numerous bars he said came out of the cavern he was working. I did see pictures of the other bars which were similiar in look. All looked as if molded in sand molds. Very textured and what looked to me as having patina but I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but am curious about the origin and possible story behind the bar(s). He was involved in a law suit with the State of NM and had to forfeit his rights to the claim, as I understand it. Conspiracy theories abound!

Benny. I really appreciate your detailing what transpired. Sounds a little fishy. Why would he tell any agency in new Mexico about any bar or anything he found. Thats just plain ignorant or stupid to be blunt. I am assuming that he disclosed that the bars were found on government land. That would trigger an immediate demand. Do you talk to him any more? Just recently i drove to apache reservation to buy an old boat trailer from an apache seller. After hooking up the trailor i decided to drive about a mile further in and get to the remains of ft mcdowell. I got out my detector and started finding really old shell casings and horse bridal relics. after about 30 minutes a mailman drove by in a reservation designated mail truck. He saw me i saw him. 10 minutes later the apache police showed up. Asked me if i was a member of the tribe NO!. Then asked me what i had found NOTHING YET, JUST GETTING STARTED! They informed me of the law and detecting on apache reservation. I thanked them, got in my truck and left. Emptied my pockets when i got home. May i ask, are you a treasure hunter or detectorist or gold prospecter and where do you live and hunt. Thanks. Gary. Cell phone is 805-591-0000. Prefer texts

 

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[GoldenAnt]

Benny. I really appreciate your detailing what transpired. Sounds a little fishy. Why would he tell any agency in new Mexico about any bar or anything he found. Thats just plain ignorant or stupid to be blunt. I am assuming that he disclosed that the bars were found on government land. That would trigger an immediate demand. Do you talk to him any more? Just recently i drove to apache reservation to buy an old boat trailer from an apache seller. After hooking up the trailor i decided to drive about a mile further in and get to the remains of ft mcdowell. I got out my detector and started finding really old shell casings and horse bridal relics. after about 30 minutes a mailman drove by in a reservation designated mail truck. He saw me i saw him. 10 minutes later the apache police showed up. Asked me if i was a member of the tribe NO!. Then asked me what i had found NOTHING YET, JUST GETTING STARTED! They informed me of the law and detecting on apache reservation. I thanked them, got in my truck and left. Emptied my pockets when i got home. May i ask, are you a treasure hunter or detectorist or gold prospecter and where do you live and hunt. Thanks. Gary. Cell phone is 805-591-0000. Prefer texts

The man to who I refer was a treasure hunter for many years. He recently passed away. Some considered him a con-artist while others considered him quite the authority on several subjects in which he immersed himself. Victorio Peak being one. Some investors had backed his work searching for awhile. He felt that when he had stumbled onto the cavern-- he was set up and arrested by the State of NM. He was charged with 72 counts of various crimes. All of which, but 3, were eventually dropped by the state. It was a long process in the court system but it was real. Conspiracy theories say they had him arrested in hopes to get him away from the cavern long enough so they could finish the discovery. The conspirators were unable to access his claim because his name was the only one registered as a legal mining company. He had explained that to me that he had the rights/permit to what was in the ground as mineral rights but the government had the rights to the land or what was above the ground. He had gone through the permitting process with the government. Due to the legal battles he faced he was told by the judge that he had to give up his claim and permits to the entrance of the claim--which was about 2 years ago. That is about when the pictured bar came into play. There is much more to the story but that was a brief synopsis. Which is why I am curious as how to how to either give credibility to the bar as having historical value or disprove it as real silver but fake story. The XRP confirms it has value as silver and copper. If it is old then there is a story. If it is determined not to be old then the story is just a tall tale.

 

[Ryano]

I've been meaning to watch it and will when time permits.

Question for those who watched it, was there actually any compelling, credible evidence of gold being there, such as actual pictures of gold?

Unfortunately no.

Though, to their credit, the producers didn't sensationalize the story by serving up "re-enactments" of Noss et al discovering a mountain of shiny, glowing gold bars like other lost treasure TV series have done.

 

[GoDeep]

Unfortunately no.

Though, to their credit, the producers didn't sensationalize the story by serving up "re-enactments" of Noss et al discovering a mountain of shiny, glowing gold bars like other lost treasure TV series have done.

Thanks for the reply, sounds like it may be worth the watch!

 

[BennyV]

Thanks for the reply, sounds like it may be worth the watch!

Let the debunking BEGIN!!!!

 

[Ryano]

Thanks for the reply, sounds like it may be worth the watch!

You're welcome.. this series is more of a documentary-style show than "reality drama tv" (but it does have its moments). I thought it was very interesting and by the end of the series, I was sympathetic to the plight of the protagonist (Noss descendant) and his quest.. looks like its streaming on Amazon Prime Video now and I hope there is a second season!

 

[gollum]

Noss's gold bars, described as looking like "pig iron", were 70% copper. Thus the dark oxidized patina. IMO, those bars originated at Santa Rita del Cobre and were hidden in the Caballos before Douthit and Noss recovered some of them.

Now Steve,

Why do you keep doing this same crap over and over, year after year? HAHAHA Noss' Bars were "described" as looking like "Pig Iron". Yeah, described BY NOSS to Ova. He described them based on him seeing the "ricks" of bars by a small light in an ink black deep underground cave That means at the time he first saw them, they were likely also coated in a layer of black crud from rodent pee and crap, and general dusty filth that coats everything in a cave for hundreds of years.

Doc didn't have 70% copper bars, but lets use your math here. The bars were about 50 pounds each (described by Doc). If they were only 30% gold content, that is still about 12 pounds of gold to each bar. Remind me, lets seeeee, 12 ounces per pound; 50 pounds times twelve ounces times 30%= 180 ounces @ $2000 per ounce ($35 back then)= $360,000 per bar($6300 in 1937). But, Doc had two sources of bars. The bars from VP were Dore (mine pours all that I know about). He had a second cave that produced refined bars (there are pictures of a Sheriff and a Judge holding refined shiny bars that Doc had given them(and Doc didn't smelt anything). The mine pour bars are typically 60-70% gold, about 15% silver, about 10% copper, and the rest misc minerals (lead, bismuth, etc). The bars Doc had that looked like copper were copper. Letha said it herself that Doc had copper bars made up so that if he was suspicious of a potential buyer, he brought copper bars to the first meetings.

As for where they originated, Santa Rita is a possibility, but so is every "other" producing mine in the area. You like SRDC because it fits your idea of Noss being nothing but a scammer, and the bars being mostly copper. Actually, I still like what we came up with several years ago, that everything in VP and the Caballos came from Tayopa and its associated mines. Remember, Willie's Map showed seven treasure caves. Willie had one, and it looks like Doc had two of them. While there is a ton of BS floating around about this subject, there is also a lot of information we know now that we didn't before. Like; I know the name/profession/phone number of the person that has Noss' Receipt from the US Mint when he brought two bars in. That's in N.M. right now. The person named as having taken photographs of the ricks of bars in the lower caverns for the government is still alive in N.M. right now. If all I knew was "100 Tons of Gold", then I may be inclined to agree with you, but when you step back and take the 30,000 foot view, there's too much "habbenings" for it to be just "Doc was a scammer..." Too much government involvement. Too much STILL secret. Remember: Tony Carriaga admitted trying to take two bars from Doc, but got caught. Remember: Benny Samaniego received (IIRC) three bars for his efforts helping Doc. With those bars he bought five adjoining lots, built a house, and more. He also got a suit of armor from VP Cave that he wore in many parades, and there are several pics of him wearing it.

Tony Jolley's attestation completely refutes your SRDC Idea (sorry). Jolley attested to personally helping Doc rebury 110 of the three hundred gold bars the night before his murder. He was later able to recover ten of them. He ONLY EVER said they were "gold bars". NEVER ONCE mentioned ANYTHING about copper.

I don't know why you keep swinging at that knuckle ball you can never hit? LOL Yes, Doc was a drinker. Doc was a poorly educated half Indian in rural New Mexico during the Depression. Did you expect him to roll in driving a Stutz Bearcat, quoting Shakespeare and figuring dense Algebraic Equations off the top of his head? Is there a rule that only smart saintly people can find treasures? If so, I'm quitting today! LOL Can't believe I've wasted all those years!

Like I said; individual things Doc did and said can be taken in several directions. If you step back and look at the 30,000 foot view, things get different.

Mike

 

[BennyV]

Now Steve,

Why do you keep doing this same crap over and over, year after year? HAHAHA Noss' Bars were "described" as looking like "Pig Iron". Yeah, described BY NOSS to Ova. He described them based on him seeing the "ricks" of bars by a small light in an ink black deep underground cave That means at the time he first saw them, they were likely also coated in a layer of black crud from rodent pee and crap, and general dusty filth that coats everything in a cave for hundreds of years.

Doc didn't have 70% copper bars, but lets use your math here. The bars were about 50 pounds each (described by Doc). If they were only 30% gold content, that is still about 12 pounds of gold to each bar. Remind me, lets seeeee, 12 ounces per pound; 50 pounds times twelve ounces times 30%= 180 ounces @ $2000 per ounce ($35 back then)= $360,000 per bar($6300 in 1937). But, Doc had two sources of bars. The bars from VP were Dore (mine pours all that I know about). He had a second cave that produced refined bars (there are pictures of a Sheriff and a Judge holding refined shiny bars that Doc had given them(and Doc didn't smelt anything). The mine pour bars are typically 60-70% gold, about 15% silver, about 10% copper, and the rest misc minerals (lead, bismuth, etc). The bars Doc had that looked like copper were copper. Letha said it herself that Doc had copper bars made up so that if he was suspicious of a potential buyer, he brought copper bars to the first meetings.

As for where they originated, Santa Rita is a possibility, but so is every "other" producing mine in the area. You like SRDC because it fits your idea of Noss being nothing but a scammer, and the bars being mostly copper. Actually, I still like what we came up with several years ago, that everything in VP and the Caballos came from Tayopa and its associated mines. Remember, Willie's Map showed seven treasure caves. Willie had one, and it looks like Doc had two of them. While there is a ton of BS floating around about this subject, there is also a lot of information we know now that we didn't before. Like; I know the name/profession/phone number of the person that has Noss' Receipt from the US Mint when he brought two bars in. That's in N.M. right now. The person named as having taken photographs of the ricks of bars in the lower caverns for the government is still alive in N.M. right now. If all I knew was "100 Tons of Gold", then I may be inclined to agree with you, but when you step back and take the 30,000 foot view, there's too much "habbenings" for it to be just "Doc was a scammer..." Too much government involvement. Too much STILL secret. Remember: Tony Carriaga admitted trying to take two bars from Doc, but got caught. Remember: Benny Samaniego received (IIRC) three bars for his efforts helping Doc. With those bars he bought five adjoining lots, built a house, and more. He also got a suit of armor from VP Cave that he wore in many parades, and there are several pics of him wearing it.

Tony Jolley's attestation completely refutes your SRDC Idea (sorry). Jolley attested to personally helping Doc rebury 110 of the three hundred gold bars the night before his murder. He was later able to recover ten of them. He ONLY EVER said they were "gold bars". NEVER ONCE mentioned ANYTHING about copper.

I don't know why you keep swinging at that knuckle ball you can never hit? LOL Yes, Doc was a drinker. Doc was a poorly educated half Indian in rural New Mexico during the Depression. Did you expect him to roll in driving a Stutz Bearcat, quoting Shakespeare and figuring dense Algebraic Equations off the top of his head? Is there a rule that only smart saintly people can find treasures? If so, I'm quitting today! LOL Can't believe I've wasted all those years!

Like I said; individual things Doc did and said can be taken in several directions. If you step back and look at the 30,000 foot view, things get different.

Mike

Glad you joined the chat. I know you are very well versed in the story and have first hand knowledge. What are your thoughts on the show? Also, what do you think happened to the gold?

 

[sdcfia]

Now Steve,
... Doc didn't have 70% copper bars ...
Mike

The Gold House, The Discovery, page 131. 1939 assay of Noss bullion bar:

Copper ~70%, Gold ~20%, Silver ~10%. Damned rich copper bars. Roughly matches typical early crudely smelted copper bullion shipments from Santa Rita del Cobre to Chihuahua, from the mid 1700s to 1830s. Lots of gold in the oxidized zone in the early days at Chino.

From one of several New Mexico Historical Review articles:
"... The 300,000 pounds of ore arriving in Ciudad Chihuahua, assuming a 60 percent assay, would have yielded $117,000 (at 65 cents per pound) in annual gross profits for Elguea. After costs for mules, muleskinners, and miners, a handsome net profit no doubt was left, as well as income from gold and silver extracted from the ore...."

Additionally, there have always been differences of opinion surrounding the amount of copper bullion delivered to Chihuahua from Santa Rita. Most reliable records seem to date from ca. 1800, despite the fact that the mine was in operation for decades prior to that date. No one has proven that the Noss assay bar came from Santa Rita, but neither has anyone identified the mine that produced the bar. Since I don't rely on coincidences to explain events, it seems quite plausible to me that the Noss bars were cast in Santa Rita. In any event, the Noss bars clearly were copper bars.

 

[sdcfia]

Now Steve,

... He had a second cave that produced refined bars ...

... As for where they originated, Santa Rita is a possibility, but so is every "other" producing mine in the area. ... Actually, I still like what we came up with several years ago, that everything in VP and the Caballos came from Tayopa ...

Mike

That's Joe Curry's argument, based on that "Noss map". Ship Jesuit gold bullion from deep within the Sierra Madre in Mexico overland northeasterly through deadly Apacheria to the Caballos - smack dab on the Franciscan El Camina Real de Tierra Adentro - for later transfer via the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico, then on to Europe. Instead of a shorter, more secure overland trip easterly to same river. All based on the "Noss map", which has no supporting provenance. Surely you jest?

By the way, exactly which "every other producing mine in the area" are you referring to?

 

[sdcfia]

Now Steve,
.... While there is a ton of BS floating around about this subject ... Like; I know the name/profession/phone number of the person that has Noss' Receipt from the US Mint .... The person named as having taken photographs of the ricks of bars in the lower caverns for the government .... Tony Carriaga admitted trying to take two bars from Doc, but got caught.... Benny Samaniego received (IIRC) three bars for his efforts helping Doc. ... Tony Jolley's attestation ...

Like I said; individual things Doc did and said can be taken in several directions. If you step back and look at the 30,000 foot view, things get different.

Mike

My 40,000 foot view is that there was (is) considerable gold cached in the Caballos, likely in multiple locations. Possibly from multiple sources and multiple time periods. The copper bars came from Santa Rita del Cobre, possibly from the pre-1800 era there. I wonder if the original travel route in that period may have been across the easy lower Black Range route just north of Cookes Peak to the Rio Grande, then to Chihuahua via the Camino Real. Later, after 1800, the well-known route south through Janos may have been established. Who knows?

In any event, Noss, through whatever foul means, located a stash of the copper bars in the Caballos. They were valuable - 20% gold. People were dogging him. He cooked up the Victorio Peak scam to get them off his back. He tried selling the copper bars. Being a lifelong grifter, he also worked an investment scam at VP for years until one of his marks killed him. Gold House lays it all out well.

Now, what about the "genuine" gold bars? I believe there were (are) full-carat gold bars in the Caballos and elsewhere. Many of them. Where did they originate? IMO, many likely came from the Pinos Altos Range ten miles west of Santa Rita, where most of them are still allegedly stashed somewhere - the "almecen". That's a rumor supported by a ton of circumstantial evidence not related to VP, except tangentially at a much later date vis-a-vis Noss, as some of these bars may have been in the Caballo copper bar cache that he found. Other sources for the "genuine bars"? Possibly way up river in the Colorado San Juans? Pike seemed to be snooping heavily from there down to the Caballos in the early 1800s. Find gold rich minerals in the greater Rio Grande basin and you may find another source for gold bars. It's a much bigger story than Noss the murderous scammer. It's a 40,000 foot story.

 

[BennyV]

Something in the show mentioned he made a leather vest to transport bars out. That would leave to me to believe that the bars were smaller. Also, saw a pic of his daughter holding smaller bars. Were they small or large bars in there? Or both?

 

[gollum]

Okay,
First, show me anywhere on that assay where it says WHAT was assayed.

Unfortunately, all the records of that assay were thrown in the trash many years ago. I contacted the company and found out that Hawley&Hawley were bought out in (IIRC) the early 1970s.

Also unfortunately the assay doesn't state whether the assay was done on a bar or something else. Remember, Letha had that big chunk of melty slag (there is a picture of it). The assay doesn't make sense for a bar. It shows 146 ounces per ton. Same with silver. For an ingot, it should have shown a percentage just like the copper part. If there were 2000 pounds of bar, then there should be about 4,800 ounces of gold PER TON. Its why I don't like using that assay for anything other than showing Noss had actual gold.

Tell ya what I'll do. I still have all the reference material for "The Gold House" Trilogy. I'll dig through that to see if I can find anything. If not, I'll call Jack and see if he remembers any specifics about the assay.

Mike

 

[gollum]

That's Joe Curry's argument, based on that "Noss map". Ship Jesuit gold bullion from deep within the Sierra Madre in Mexico overland northeasterly through deadly Apacheria to the Caballos - smack dab on the Franciscan El Camina Real de Tierra Adentro - for later transfer via the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico, then on to Europe. Instead of a shorter, more secure overland trip easterly to same river. All based on the "Noss map", which has no supporting provenance. Surely you jest?

By the way, exactly which "every other producing mine in the area" are you referring to?

Actually, that was mine not Don Jose's. I put the two maps together, and they fit perfectly (including direction, Rio Grande, and days of travel). I still like them. LOL

You should read a lot of those Jesuit Entrada Books. You will see that in the beginning, the Jesuits/Dominicans/Franciscans were on very good terms with the Indians. Things didn't get bad until much later. Actually, the maps show the MAIN Almacen being in the headwaters of the Gila.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Okay,
First, show me anywhere on that assay where it says WHAT was assayed.

Unfortunately, all the records of that assay were thrown in the trash many years ago. I contacted the company and found out that Hawley&Hawley were bought out in (IIRC) the early 1970s.

Also unfortunately the assay doesn't state whether the assay was done on a bar or something else. Remember, Letha had that big chunk of melty slag (there is a picture of it). The assay doesn't make sense for a bar. It shows 146 ounces per ton. Same with silver. For an ingot, it should have shown a percentage just like the copper part. If there were 2000 pounds of bar, then there should be about 4,800 ounces of gold PER TON. Its why I don't like using that assay for anything other than showing Noss had actual gold.

Tell ya what I'll do. I still have all the reference material for "The Gold House" Trilogy. I'll dig through that to see if I can find anything. If not, I'll call Jack and see if he remembers any specifics about the assay.

Mike

Unfortunately, mining records from back in the day were frequently just plain abandoned when operations ceased. Same goes for assayers, I imagine. I found an entire office full of operation records, assays, etc. in the old Pewabic mine (base metals) above Santa Rita back in the 70s. Mostly boring stuff, but lots of it in filing cabinets. However, I did run across an original telegram to the management from D.D. Eisenhower from the 40s, thanking them for helping the war effort. Cool. I gave it to the Silver City Museum.

A second similar Noss assay as the one above appears on page 132. The description in the text refers to "crude bars and ore". Bars, of course, but ore? Ore from where? Noss wasn't a miner.

 

[sdcfia]

Actually, that was mine not Don Jose's. I put the two maps together, and they fit perfectly (including direction, Rio Grande, and days of travel). I still like them. LOL

You should read a lot of those Jesuit Entrada Books. You will see that in the beginning, the Jesuits/Dominicans/Franciscans were on very good terms with the Indians. Things didn't get bad until much later. Actually, the maps show the MAIN Almacen being in the headwaters of the Gila.

Mike

Ever hear about the Pueblo Revolt of 1680? The old church in Taos is still in ruins. Things didn't get any friendlier as time went by, especially with the Apaches down south.

Yes, the Almacen. A topic with many questions and not many answers.

 

[gollum]

I have NEVER heard of his having a leather vest made, but I guess it COULD be possible since I wasn't there. HAHAHA But we know how big the bars were. From several sources. IIRC the two bars Noss brought to the US Mint weighed about 90 pounds. When he first went inside VP, he saw all the stuff below, then went and told Ova. He described the bars as looking like ricks (stacks) of bars. She asked him to bring up one, he didn't want to because they were so heavy. He dragged one up and threw it by Ova's Feet. When it hit the ground it was scratched, and you could see the gold.

........and with gold, it doesn't have to be that large. A bar the size of a Twinkie would weigh around 15-18 pounds. Its just that gold bars aren't easy to carry.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Steve,

While we agree on some things, you make me laugh "

Ever hear about the Pueblo Revolt of 1680? The old church in Taos is still in ruins. Things didn't get any friendlier as time went by, especially with the Apaches down south.

Yes, the Almacen. A topic with many questions and not many answers.

GEE STEVE,
I think 1680 is far from "in the beginning". The first Jesuits hit the Yucatan Peninsula in 1608, and worked with the remnants of the Maya. THAT is why Ron Quinn's (82 Pounds of Gold Bars) were found by clues on the two boulders on the surface 1. With a Cross and Heart (Jesuit Symbolism for the burning heart of Christ) 2. With Mayan Numbers.

.........and in the early days, the Priests got along well with the Natives.

Mike

 

[BennyV]

these smaller bars don’t look 90 pounds.

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

While we agree on some things, you make me laugh "

GEE STEVE,
I think 1680 is far from "in the beginning". The first Jesuits hit the Yucatan Peninsula in 1608, and worked with the remnants of the Maya. THAT is why Ron Quinn's (82 Pounds of Gold Bars) were found by clues on the two boulders on the surface 1. With a Cross and Heart (Jesuit Symbolism for the burning heart of Christ) 2. With Mayan Numbers.

.........and in the early days, the Priests got along well with the Natives.

Mike

The best bet is when we make ourselves laugh.

Yes, in the early days the Franciscan Marcos de Niza had amicable relations with Natives in Mexico and beyond the Northern Frontier. His activities in 1538-40 were somewhat well chronicled, although there are some holes in that timeline that potentially shed light on the "almacen". But that's another story.

By the way, an old friend who knew Quinn well confirmed that the 82 pound discovery in Arizona was a real deal and that the clues you mentioned were used. But, as you know (and was discussed in prior TNet threads), Quinn revealed to him that the gold belonged to a northern Mexico rancher who moved it into the USA to protect it from the Villalistas during the early 20th century revolution. Who was he? Don't know, but being rich, was presumably a Diaz man and quite likely could have been killed by Pancho's gang. In any event, I guess his Catholic/Maya mojo clues weren't clever enough. Kudos to Quinn.