Got kicked out by the Feds

[sjvalleyhunter]

Today EU4IA and I decided to take a trip to one of the local lakes to try our luck at one of the popular swimming areas. Due to the drought here in California, the lake is lower than it has been in probably over a decade. We were hoping to find some lost rings or jewelry in the newly exposed shoreline.

Well, we were hunting for less than ten minutes before being approached by two Park Rangers. We were politely informed that we were detecting on federal land and that it was unlawful to have our detectors at the lake. Needless to say we were a bit confused as to the "federal land" designation, considering we were over 50 miles from the nearest national park or forrest. It ends up that because the lake is maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, that it's considered a piece of federal property.

I consider myself a responsible detectorist and make every effort to adhere to the metal detecting code of ethics, so I won't hunt where I'm not supposed to. That being said, there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. We weren't digging massive holes in a poppy meadow while standing near a giant redwood and gazing up at Half Dome while in Yosemite. No, we were walking around barren land in 100+ degree heat, getting stickers in our clothes while avoiding tripping in the ground squirrel holes and hoping not to get stuck by an old rusty fishhook. I would think that the rangers could have taken into consideration the totality of where we were and what we were doing before giving us the boot. But, I guess the law is the law, regardless.

I looked at the USACE website and virtually every state has lakes and property maintained by them. There are 23 lakes in California alone. I suppose today's lesson learned is that federal land isn't always in a national park or forrest. So be careful if you head to a USACE lake because the Feds have firmly planted their flag on that land.

 

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[TheGoldProspector]

Today EU4IA and I decided to take a trip to one of the local lakes to try our luck at one of the popular swimming areas. Due to the drought here in California, the lake is lower than it has been in probably over a decade. We were hoping to find some lost rings or jewelry in the newly exposed shoreline. Well, we were hunting for less than ten minutes before being approached by two Park Rangers. We were politely informed that we were detecting on federal land and that it was unlawful to have our detectors at the lake. Needless to say we were a bit confused as to the "federal land" designation, considering we were over 50 miles from the nearest national park or forrest. It ends up that because the lake is maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, that it's considered a piece of federal property. I consider myself a responsible detectorist and make every effort to adhere to the metal detecting code of ethics, so I won't hunt where I'm not supposed to. That being said, there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. We weren't digging massive holes in a poppy meadow while standing near a giant redwood and gazing up at Half Dome while in Yosemite. No, we were walking around barren land in 100+ degree heat, getting stickers in our clothes while avoiding tripping in the ground squirrel holes and hoping not to get stuck by an old rusty fishhook. I would think that the rangers could have taken into consideration the totality of where we were and what we were doing before giving us the boot. But, I guess the law is the law, regardless. I looked at the USACE website and virtually every state has lakes and property maintained by them. There are 23 lakes in California alone. I suppose today's lesson learned is that federal land isn't always in a national park or forrest. So be careful if you head to a USACE lake because the Feds have firmly planted their flag on that land.

Im sorry to have read this. Even. More land we cannot prospect on...Great.

 

[Justbent]

Today EU4IA and I decided to take a trip to one of the local lakes to try our luck at one of the popular swimming areas. Due to the drought here in California, the lake is lower than it has been in probably over a decade. We were hoping to find some lost rings or jewelry in the newly exposed shoreline. Well, we were hunting for less than ten minutes before being approached by two Park Rangers. We were politely informed that we were detecting on federal land and that it was unlawful to have our detectors at the lake. Needless to say we were a bit confused as to the "federal land" designation, considering we were over 50 miles from the nearest national park or forrest. It ends up that because the lake is maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, that it's considered a piece of federal property. I consider myself a responsible detectorist and make every effort to adhere to the metal detecting code of ethics, so I won't hunt where I'm not supposed to. That being said, there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. We weren't digging massive holes in a poppy meadow while standing near a giant redwood and gazing up at Half Dome while in Yosemite. No, we were walking around barren land in 100+ degree heat, getting stickers in our clothes while avoiding tripping in the ground squirrel holes and hoping not to get stuck by an old rusty fishhook. I would think that the rangers could have taken into consideration the totality of where we were and what we were doing before giving us the boot. But, I guess the law is the law, regardless. I looked at the USACE website and virtually every state has lakes and property maintained by them. There are 23 lakes in California alone. I suppose today's lesson learned is that federal land isn't always in a national park or forrest. So be careful if you head to a USACE lake because the Feds have firmly planted their flag on that land.

I think I would have to tell the nice park ranger to pound salt. If this is federal land then taxes pay for it and that makes it part mine. Don't give in so easy. If they know there in for a fight maybe they won't be so eager to try to kick you out. They take what you let them take.

 

[DavidGC]

Tough talk like that will get you nowhere. The law is what it is -- we can't use detectors on fed land.
IF he had refused to listen to the nice Ranger, either he or someone he could quickly call with arrest authority would confiscate your gear, cuff you, and throw you into the back of a vehicle with a blue light on top.

What we need is to organize a campaign to officially and legally open up the parts of federal land that should not be included in the MD prohibition. Let's start with National Sea Shores (It is absurd that you cannot dig in the sand at the Cape Cod (or other) National Seashore with a MD in your hands, but any child with a plastic bucket can dig as many holes as he likes) and Army Corps lakes and rec areas.

 

[Ism]

The feds also takes what you don't want them to take, like your equipment if you get belligerent.

 

[Justbent]

Tough talk like that will get you nowhere. The law is what it is -- we can't use detectors on fed land. IF he had refused to listen to the nice Ranger, either he or someone he could quickly call with arrest authority would confiscate your gear, cuff you, and throw you into the back of a vehicle with a blue light on top. What we need is to organize a campaign to officially and legally open up the parts of federal land that should not be included in the MD prohibition. Let's start with National Sea Shores (It is absurd that you cannot dig in the sand at the Cape Cod (or other) National Seashore with a MD in your hands, but any child with a plastic bucket can dig as many holes as he likes) and Army Corps lakes and rec areas.

I can't even organize my garage, no way I'm gonna get a bunch of people together to protest. There was a time that I would have been polite to the nice park ranger but lately, the gubment seems to think there above the law, hence the attitude.

 

[TheRingFinder]

Tough talk like that will get you nowhere. The law is what it is -- we can't use detectors on fed land.
IF he had refused to listen to the nice Ranger, either he or someone he could quickly call with arrest authority would confiscate your gear, cuff you, and throw you into the back of a vehicle with a blue light on top.

What we need is to organize a campaign to officially and legally open up the parts of federal land that should not be included in the MD prohibition. Let's start with National Sea Shores (It is absurd that you cannot dig in the sand at the Cape Cod (or other) National Seashore with a MD in your hands, but any child with a plastic bucket can dig as many holes as he likes) and Army Corps lakes and rec areas.

David - In this instance you are incorrect. A LOT of the time, people just go beyond their authority. No One OWNS a lake - It is the "peoples" property. I had the same thing happen here in Minnesota. We were diving / detecting a lake, when we got out; 2 rangers walked up to tell us how it is illegal and or we need to get a permit to be there. I promptly told him the laws and the facts of diving ANY lake. Then I went home and called their supervisor to report them for harassment and guess what? They don't bother me anymore, I have dove that lake a dozen times since the "incident". My point being, don't be so easily pushed around by someone with authority - check your facts and stick with them.

 

[CladGrabber]

What is the policy on metal detectors?

A permit must be obtained from the Lake Office prior to use of metal detectors. Permits must be carried by the person it was granted at all times when using a metal detecting device on government property, otherwise, anyone found digging on the land may be subject to a citation and may be asked to leave the area. Metal detectors must be used in accordance with the lake policy. Permits are granted subject to the following:

Use of metal detectors will be confined to shoreline areas of the Corps parks, except the overnight camping areas, unless you have a camping permit.* Shoreline areas are defined as those park areas periodically disturbed by wave action, approximately eight vertical feet above or below the lake's "normal" conservation level of elevation 522 MSL.* Use of metal detectors is not permitted in non-park or upland areas.Non-identifiable items of nominal value (defined as less than $25.00), which are found, do not need to be deposited with the Corps of Engineers.* Identifiable items (rings, watches, etc.) and items of greater than nominal value will be deposited with the Corps of Engineers for disposition in accordance with federal regulations.Any item, which may contain historical, archaeological, or pale ontological significance, will be left in place if practical.* The Corps of Engineers must be notified; if the item is or has been removed from the site, it will be deposited with the Corps of Engineers.Any item pertaining to a criminal offense will be turned over to the local police or to the Corps of Engineers.Digging shall be limited to small instruments, scoops, or other hand tools, which can be used by one hand only.* Hand tools shall be limited to four inches wide, four inches deep, and twelve inches long.No holes will be dug and left uncovered.* All trash, litter, or other debris uncovered will be removed and placed in an approved trash receptacle.* All disturbed or displaced soil will be returned to its original site.* The areas will be left in as good or better condition than before hunting occurred.
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lewisville/faq.asp

 

[Justbent]

What is the policy on metal detectors? A permit must be obtained from the Lake Office prior to use of metal detectors. Permits must be carried by the person it was granted at all times when using a metal detecting device on government property, otherwise, anyone found digging on the land may be subject to a citation and may be asked to leave the area. Metal detectors must be used in accordance with the lake policy. Permits are granted subject to the following: Use of metal detectors will be confined to shoreline areas of the Corps parks, except the overnight camping areas, unless you have a camping permit.* Shoreline areas are defined as those park areas periodically disturbed by wave action, approximately eight vertical feet above or below the lake's "normal" conservation level of elevation 522 MSL.* Use of metal detectors is not permitted in non-park or upland areas.Non-identifiable items of nominal value (defined as less than $25.00), which are found, do not need to be deposited with the Corps of Engineers.* Identifiable items (rings, watches, etc.) and items of greater than nominal value will be deposited with the Corps of Engineers for disposition in accordance with federal regulations.Any item, which may contain historical, archaeological, or pale ontological significance, will be left in place if practical.* The Corps of Engineers must be notified; if the item is or has been removed from the site, it will be deposited with the Corps of Engineers.Any item pertaining to a criminal offense will be turned over to the local police or to the Corps of Engineers.Digging shall be limited to small instruments, scoops, or other hand tools, which can be used by one hand only.* Hand tools shall be limited to four inches wide, four inches deep, and twelve inches long.No holes will be dug and left uncovered.* All trash, litter, or other debris uncovered will be removed and placed in an approved trash receptacle.* All disturbed or displaced soil will be returned to its original site.* The areas will be left in as good or better condition than before hunting occurred.

What a joke. So the people that write the rules say if you find something valuable you have to give it to them. Are you gonna follow that part of the rule also? Who makes up these rules?

 

[McKinney_5900]

I do not advise anyone to butt heads with the COE at any lakes they maintain. They have very little patience and have been known to grab your detectors. I think part of it is the fact that the most tectors, at least newbies, hit these COE parks because it just makes sense there's treasure there, and the public, friends and strangers you ask for suggestions of where to hunt, point to these local lakes. I've been told many stories about freinds-of-friends about them detecting these lakes like they own them and get away with it, so you can see the Rangers point of view that their restrictions/laws have to be more inforced more agressively.

While us law abiding folks stay away from the COE lakes, there's a high volume of folks who hunt them at will but get lucky and not get caught...probably digging and leaving sightly holes. Whatever there reasons for making it illegal there, the Rangers will get nasty if you get an attitude. The permits to hunt here in Texas have been stopped on at least one lake close to me, but the lower than ever water level and folks digging and sometimes finding indian artifacts, etc. is probably enought reason it itself for halting all detecting.


It never really was worth it to get those permits with all of the restrictions. You can still be certain that many "Joe Public" types are hunting the parks as I type. martin

 

[cudamark]

We can all argue that we aren't doing any harm detecting a lake or beach (or most other areas for that matter!) but, if it's the law, abide by it. You can look the rules up before you detect to see if detecting is allowed or not. If it's a gray area and a ranger tells you it isn't allowed, be polite and leave. Arguing at the site will only get you in deeper trouble and maybe a ride to the iron bar motel. If there are rules against detecting, try to change them by joining others in a coordinated political attack. If there are no rules against detecting, don't make waves by asking, just do it, and do it responsibly by leaving no trace of you being there.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... We were politely informed that we were detecting on federal land and that it was unlawful to have our detectors at the lake. Needless to say we were a bit confused as to the "federal land" designation, considering we were over 50 miles from the nearest national park or forrest. It ends up that because the lake is maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, that it's considered a piece of federal property.....

There is an inherent flaw in this quote, and part of the story. The flaw is the implied premise : That you can't detect on federal land. And I notice that david GC & lsm, etc... are perpetuating on this common misconception. As if it's just a known or given, that you "can't detect on federal land". This is a mis-conception that gets repeated often enough, till people just believe it. Heck, even the rangers themselves too I suppose.

As proof that this isn't true, there is actual specific ALLOWANCES on BLM land and NFS land (versus simple silence on the subject). And notice that both those types of land are federal. Thus for people to keep spouting that "all federal land is off-limits" is simply erroneous, from the start.

I'm not speaking directly to COE (army corps of engineers) land at this moment, but simply trying to address the misconception that people keep saying about federal land in general.

I would suspect that if those persons who booted you, are relying on .... for example .... ARPA, then the solution is simple: You're not finding anything over 50 yrs. old. That would be, for example, if they had nothing specific that said "no metal detecting" on their rule books. Then you can tell them to pound sand, that you're looking for modern stuff. And heck, look what clad-grabber found specifically from a COE source ?? Not sure where he's pulled that quote from, but again, it seems that your rangers are simply mistaken.

Would I argue with them ? No. I would simply go at night when they're not around to gripe, to begin with! But this post just goes to show how quickly us md'rs grab our ankles and bend over, and the slightest mention of "scram". Why are we so quick to believe when someone says "you can't do that" ? Sure not every last person in the world will love and adore your hobby. You can debate them on legalities (and perhaps prove you're in-the-right), or do as I say, and simply go at lower traffic times when busy-bodies aren't present, to begin with.

 

[Metal Detecting Stuff]

Here is a link to the actual memorandum:

East Texas Metal Detectors

There are still ACOE lakes that are off limits - for instance, in Texas, State Parks are off limits, so if a ACOE Lake is in a state park, you can't detect there. If it's not in a state park, the memorandum rules apply.

Wayne

Metal Detector Sales and Rentals | Fisher, Garrett, Minelab, Lesche and DetectorPro

 

[TheRingFinder]

Also remember that if a Lake is "maintained" by a certain entity - It does not mean that entity "OWNS" the lake. Always search for the rules, abide by them and educate those who are just out on a power trip. You can't get in trouble if you are following the rules.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey metal-detecting-stuff, you should get a medal for a great post. Yours is just another case of how someone comes up and says "scram" or "you can't do that". But that they're simply mistaken. Or saying so within a context that isn't entirely applicable, etc.... And yours is yet another case of a type of federal land that has an explicit *allowance* to detect (as opposed to mere silence on the subject) . Thus yet another dis-proving of the misconception that all federal land is off-limits.

Bravo to you ! I've saved your link. Next time I'm in Texas, I owe you a 12-pack

 

[adamBomb]

Tough talk like that will get you nowhere. The law is what it is -- we can't use detectors on fed land.
IF he had refused to listen to the nice Ranger, either he or someone he could quickly call with arrest authority would confiscate your gear, cuff you, and throw you into the back of a vehicle with a blue light on top.

What we need is to organize a campaign to officially and legally open up the parts of federal land that should not be included in the MD prohibition. Let's start with National Sea Shores (It is absurd that you cannot dig in the sand at the Cape Cod (or other) National Seashore with a MD in your hands, but any child with a plastic bucket can dig as many holes as he likes) and Army Corps lakes and rec areas.

This. Education and lobbying are the ONLY things that are going to work. Protesting, resisting laws/police, etc will only get you arrested and give dectorists a bad rep.

And the law is pretty stupid. I am on assateague island this week vacationing and I cannot detect on the beach. I get that they do not want people detecting in the forest and such disrupting the animals habitats - Fine. But detecting on the beach? Its just easier for them to make it an all or nothing type of law.

 

[DDancer]

Hrm.
Tom ya might want to redact that silly statement about bending down and grabbing your ankles. Unfortunately there are simple laws that prevent access to certain lands due to the entities that hold those lands both above and below the waters edge. Not that I'm above a little night op but still~ obey the laws hrm.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....And the law is pretty stupid....

Law ? What law ? Perhaps you only read the OP, and not the subsequent posts. A typical case of mis-informed rangers. But oddly, your post shows why this myth gets perpetuated, in the first place: No one remembers the posts that dispel myths. They only remember the "scary stories" title-headings they read somewhere about someone getting booted.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hrm.
Tom ya might want to redact that silly statement about bending down and grabbing your ankles. Unfortunately there are simple laws that prevent access to certain lands due to the entities that hold those lands both above and below the waters edge. Not that I'm above a little night op but still~ obey the laws hrm.

Huh ? Sure, if there's a law, then by all means you and I are welcome to obey it. But in the context of THIS particular post, what are you getting at ? Seems to me the OP's rangers were the ones mistaken, thus my statement stands, to NOT just take any such "scram" as gospel truth.

 

[adamBomb]

Law ? What law ? Perhaps you only read the OP, and not the subsequent posts. A typical case of mis-informed rangers. But oddly, your post shows why this myth gets perpetuated, in the first place: No one remembers the posts that dispel myths. They only remember the "scary stories" title-headings they read somewhere about someone getting booted.

So there is no law stating that people are forbidden from metal detecting on federal lands/property?