Gus Hirschfeld and the Dutchman Matchbox.

Matthew Roberts

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Gus Hirschfeld grave Greenwood cem. Phoenix.jpg

In the Brownie Holmes affidavit about the Dutchman Matchbox one must read it carefully and understand that Brownie was neither a part of, nor was he privilige to the exact details of how Gus Hirschfeld was awarded the Matchbox.

He was not involved with the Matchbox creation and did not know exactly who had crafted the matchbox.
At best he could only guess and this is what he did in the affidavit, he guessed at who might have made it and made it clear it was only his guess and not to be taken as fact.
Dick Holmes and Gus Hirschfeld were contemporaries, both men having been born in the same year, 1865.
Brownie Holmes was one generation younger, one generation removed from Hirschfeld and naturally would not have known him or the circumstances as his father did.

Gus Hirschfeld has been maligned in another thread by persons who have no idea who he was. The Hirschfeld family lives on in Phoenix through a niece, Mrs. William Alters and her descendants. They are a good and descent family who themselves were Arizona pioneers. Gus Hirschfeld's wife Annie was born in Arizona to a pioneer family.


I am posting the excerpt of what Brownie said in his affidavit about the Matchbox and it's history. And following that, the bio of Gus Hirschfeld for everyone to decide for themselves if what Brownie wrote was credible or not.



Keeping several pieces of the gold for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s store. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.


Hirschfeld biography:

Gus H. Hirschfeld was born at Baltimore, Maryland in 1865. He came to Phoenix at the age of 17 in 1882. His first job in Phoenix was as bookkeeper for Goldman brothers Mercantile store on Washington Street where he worked for over a decade. He was working for Goldman’s in 1891 when Jacob Waltz died and the Dutchman ore was sold to Goldman’s.

He was a charter member of the Elks Lodge of Phoenix in 1896.

At one time for 12 years he operated the Mercantile store in Hayden.

In 1894 he owned and operated the historic Palace Saloon (The Palace) on Washington street between Center and 1st Avenue.

Later Hirschfeld bought the Rose Tree Saloon and still later Tom’s Tavern.

In 1893 with Charles Ellis he bonded the Bulldog Mine from James Morse, Orren Merrill and Collins Hakes for $50,000. A down shaft was sunk on the vein and produced good ore to the 100-foot level. A ten-ton stamp mill was erected near the mine and $70,000 of gold was recovered by 1896.

Hirschfeld was active in many mining ventures throughout Arizona.

During his life he was the accountant for several Phoenix business firms. After his retirement and for the last 18 years of his life Mr. Hirschfeld was the accountant for his personal friend Dr. Robert Craig’s estate which included several of the most prominent downtown Phoenix buildings known as Central Investments Incorporated.

Mr. Hirschfeld married his wife of over 50 years, Annie, in Phoenix in 1901. Annie was a native pioneer Arizonan.

On January 24, 1895 the Arizona Republic on page 2 reported that Gus Hirschfeld had just gotten in a nice supply of fine cigars and liquors at his Palace Saloon.

On September 17, 1895 the Arizona Republic on page 6 reported Gus Hirschfeld was the proprietor of The Palace saloon in Phoenix and sold the finest imported and domestic liquor and cigars in the city.

On September 14, 1898 the Arizona Republic reported on page 8 that Gus Hirschfeld had just returned from a trip to Prescott where he had attended to business in that city.

On June 24, 1900 the Arizona Republic on page 3 reported Gus Hirschfeld had returned from Los Angeles on business where he is one of the major stockholders in the Sunset Czar oil district at Long Beach.

On June 26, 1900 the Arizona Republic reported on page 7 that Gus Hirschfeld is listed as one of the principal stockholders in the Phoenix Foundry and Machine Works.

On July 3, 1900 the Arizona Republic reported on page 6 Gus Hirschfeld has become a principal investor in a Mercantile store in Mesa.

On June 5, 1904 the Arizona Republic reports on page 12 the Articles of Incorporation for the Wacantuck Mining Company of Phoenix. Officers of the Corporation are Gus Hirschfeld, Dr. Robert Craig, Edgar Murdock and Thos Sparks. The Corporation has raised $500,000 in capital stock.

On April 22, 1910 the Arizona Republic reported on page 6 that Gus Hirschfeld had returned from Chicago on business and upon arrival attended the closing of The Palace Saloon which had once been owned by him and was the oldest Saloon in Phoenix. Mr. Hirschfeld purchased to preserve, at great expense, the stucco model of the St. Paul Ice Palace that from the very beginning adorned the wall of the old saloon.

On December 18, 1915 the Arizona Republic reported on page 6 that Gus Hirschfeld was back in Phoenix from Hayden where he oversaw business at his Mercantile store there.

On October 7, 1925 the Arizona Republic reported on page 2 that Gus Hirschfeld was doing a good business at the Rose Tree Saloon in Phoenix.

On October 4, 1938 the Arizona Republic reported on page 16 that Gus Hirschfeld returned to Phoenix after two weeks of business in Southern California.

On April 2, 1950 the Arizona Republic reported on page 10 that Gus Hirschfeld had registered for the annual Arizona Pioneers Reunion and that he had first arrived in Arizona in 1882.

On January 5, 1953 the Arizona Republic reported on page 4 that Gus H. Hirschfeld of 235 E. Palm Lane in Phoenix had died at the age of 88. He died of pneumonia at Good Samaritan Hospital after a lengthy illness.
 

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wrmickel1

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Matthew

I don't think this guy much matters really, Your time line mostly after Waltz had passed. So if he was into mining maybe
your leaving out this information for a reason.

We Know he passed case on to Brownie and he gave to friend in what year. Like 69 after the affidavit.

Someone sure made sure he took the time to file a affidavit before he passed. Who

Cause I mean to go to the court house before I die and do a affidavit, everybody does this in there life right.

babymick1
 

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Terry Soloman

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Same old stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda.. Seriously people? If it was there it was found. If it was a high-grading stash it was spent. :skullflag:
 

wrmickel1

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Matthew

Here's what I'm getting at, Tom's article that Joe posted clearly states Alleged Matchbox in 2000.
by the Superstitions Mountain Museum.

Then recently The Superstition Mountain Museum says for one day only the Authenticated Matchbox Appears out of thin
air.

So who payed who off.

Clearly the Museum didn't agree at all with it.

babymick1 Money Talks
 

JohnWhite

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Matthew

Here's what I'm getting at, Tom's article that Joe posted clearly states Alleged Matchbox in 2000.
by the Superstitions Mountain Museum.

Then recently The Superstition Mountain Museum says for one day only the Authenticated Matchbox Appears out of thin
air.

So who payed who off.

Clearly the Museum didn't agree at all with it.

babymick1 Money Talks

Food for thought June 5th, 1904... A half of a million dollars was a pretty penny back in the day...Mining ventures was a big speculation back then...Everybody wanted to get rich quick...

I still believe the LDM to be a hoax...Then as is now...
 

wrmickel1

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Food for thought June 5th, 1904... A half of a million dollars was a pretty penny back in the day...Mining ventures was a big speculation back then...Everybody wanted to get rich quick...

I still believe the LDM to be a hoax...Then as is now...

John

I don't thank so, I think something was happening, The original characters in the story spent a lifetime looking for something out there, Two brothers disowning each other. Living what 40/50 miles apart never to speak again. Julia
selling all she owned ready to move on and live a good life. A lot of emotions were tried, tested and lost in the original
cast of characters. Then you got the outsider Holmes with gold envy following Waltz around before his death, So he knew
something. Before the Ledgen even began. So now the Hoax begins, with the I was there, I knew the Dutchman, This is Dutchman's Gold. These items where made with Dutchman's gold, the only known sample of Dutchman's ore all owned by those who try to cement themselves in to the ledgen for eternity.

The beginnings of the journey was real, The hoax was built around it.

babymick1 That's my view of the Ledgen

Takecare John
 

wrmickel1

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John

The same concept is used here by many TNer's who sidestep a question with Were good friends with such and such, But it's not up to me to make that call. Totally evade backing up there dubious claims,
Now I'm a member of Superstition Montain Club and get a post by a guy who says he just got off the phone with a guy who's gonna blow the lid off the whole Peralta Stones he in contact with the SOJ Tumilson family but I can't say his name! WHAT! Charlie Lusueur. I replied back. Let me then, Ryan Gordon

Sure peaked his interest, But anyway he's gonna do a story on RG and just let the viewers decide on it.

Which is cool, I like to here RG's stories Might even be good if he don't reply back to posts. Or it will all turn in to a Crap Show.

babymick1 Charlie went to fish creek yesterday and filmed, should be good
 

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JohnWhite

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John

The same concept is used here by many TNer's who sidestep a question with Were good friends with such and such, But it's not up to me to make that call. Totally evade backing up there dubious claims,
Now I'm a member of Superstition Montain Club and get a post by a guy who says he just got off the phone with a guy who's gonna blow the lid off the whole Peralta Stones he in contact with the SOJ Tumilson family but I can't say his name! WHAT! Charlie Lusueur. I replied back. Let me then, Ryan Gordon

Sure peaked his interest, But anyway he's gonna do a story on RG and just let the viewers decide on it.

Which is cool, I like to here RG's stories Might even be good if he don't reply back to posts. Or it will all turn in to a Crap Show.

babymick1 Charlie went to fish creek yesterday and filmed, should be good

I believe that the PSM's are real, I also believe they were made by the Jesuits...IF anyone were to come up with $20,000,000 my memory of the location that the PSM's lead to just might return to me...lol...Like I have mentioned earlier in another post...I prospect for the fun of IT...I really don't care IF I get rich from it...But I do not plan on taking anyone to any of my little playgrounds any time soon...I don't want to spend 6 days on a darn mule either...Without my trusted guide I don't even know IF I could return there...It is in a very remote location...

Oh well...Life will go on...IF ya'll knew what I know you would smack yourselves on your head due to the simplicity involved in the PSM's...lol...
 

JohnWhite

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I’m confused John, you “prospect for fun” and “really don’t care about if you get rich from it.” Yet you are always *****ing about being broke. I’m honestly sick of listening to your BS stories of what you have here and there.

It is not all that bad being poor hooch...I can hold on to the belief that one day my ship will come in...lol...

You really don't have to listen to any of my bs stories...Just as I don't have to listen to any of ya'lls...You have the right as does anyone else to put me on ignore as do I with any of ya'll...It may be best...Because I doubt I'll give ya'll any really meaty information that will lead ya'll to any of my play areas...Or have I already given ya'll enough to find some of them???

Only time will tell hooch...

I look on the bright side...I have come to the conclusion that my body is no longer fit to do any real physical mining...So I have decided to focus any possible future attempts at getting rich quick on diamonds...rofl...Maybe one day I shall return to Reno and try to find some of those elusive boogers...

As for revealing exactly where the PSM's lead...Maybe in time I may decide to let ya'll in on said secret...Or maybe I'll pass it along to someone I feel may be deserving of said information...I guess that we'll just have to wait and see... :)
 

wrmickel1

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Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing,

So Matthew

What were to believe about the Matchbox is, A guy steals or giving the gold and greedily sells it,
wich is bought by another guy to make a fancy case as a token of his hard work and life time achievements to there Company a heirloom of the family is just handed over to the son of the greedy person who just cash it all in.

Plausibility is about Zero on that. Wives just don't give away there husband's past. They pass it on to there kids, If not for the memories then for it's worth as gold.

That would be like you giving me your stuff and not your kids.

babymick1
 

Ponchosportal

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Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing,

So Matthew

What were to believe about the Matchbox is, A guy steals or giving the gold and greedily sells it,
wich is bought by another guy to make a fancy case as a token of his hard work and life time achievements to there Company a heirloom of the family is just handed over to the son of the greedy person who just cash it all in.

Plausibility is about Zero on that. Wives just don't give away there husband's past. They pass it on to there kids, If not for the memories then for it's worth as gold.

That would be like you giving me your stuff and not your kids.

babymick1


People do give away everything they have accumulated in life to others that are not their children. That's what my parents did. Happens all the time.

Just saying.
Poncho

Edit: I know one person who left two daughters nothing because they were female and left a pioneer cattle LEGACY to his son who promptly sold it all for 40 cents on the dollar.

Go figure
 

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wrmickel1

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People do give away everything they have accumulated in life to others that are not their children. That's what my parents did. Happens all the time.

Just saying.
Poncho

Edit: I know one person who left two daughters nothing because they were female and left a pioneer cattle LEGACY to his son who promptly sold it all for 40 cents on the dollar.



Go figure


Well, sure they do, But not in this Case, (pun intended)

People don't just protect things of providence, There's not even creditable evidence Holmes was any part of this Story, If he was he'd mostly likely would have been on the search with Julia and the Pertrash's. He new the whole area pretty well but left out. Why!

It was all fabricated, instead of testing ore samples maybe they should test all the jewelry claimed to be made from Dutchman's Ore.

Or put the case up for a inspection against Know MATCHBOX jewelry from the levy company out of San Francisco.

But you don't even need that, any jeweler would tell you the box is stock, the banding is stock and the Quarts is the only
part that is possibly Dutchman's Ore.

with no credible evidence to back it up.

Bottom line no one will ever know.

Babymick1
 

azdave35

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Well, sure they do, But not in this Case, (pun intended)

People don't just protect things of providence, There's not even creditable evidence Holmes was any part of this Story, If he was he'd mostly likely would have been on the search with Julia and the Pertrash's. He new the whole area pretty well but left out. Why!

It was all fabricated, instead of testing ore samples maybe they should test all the jewelry claimed to be made from Dutchman's Ore.

Or put the case up for a inspection against Know MATCHBOX jewelry from the levy company out of San Francisco.

But you don't even need that, any jeweler would tell you the box is stock, the banding is stock and the Quarts is the only
part that is possibly Dutchman's Ore.

with no credible evidence to back it up.

Bottom line no one will ever know.


Babymick1

maybe julia and petrash didn't like (or trust) holmes
 

wrmickel1

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Or they new the affidavit is just lies, And Holmes was stocking Waltz around and stoled the candle box of ore.
But I'm convinced by Holmes, that the Dutchman did have a Mine in there.
His actions speak louder then lies.

babymick1
 

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