Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[allan]

Well you are stubbornly sticking to that lol, did you see the mask on the guy with the poleaxe?funny stuff. The KOP wore Medieval attire and the pins have the symbols of the UR and the UR uniforms closely resemble the uniforms of the military at the time and the crossed sword pins are very close to the military's crossed saber collar pin.I have yet to see one KOP item that remotely resemble's the military's attire or insignia of any period excepting the medieval period.So I gotta keep my theory. Sooner or later we will know for certain... maybe

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I hear ya. But don't forget that the Knights of Pythias members who dressed up as knights for Wednesday night lodge meetings were the same members who dressed up as soldiers for Saturday afternoon drill practice. Which explains why a 'guard' could also be a 'sergeant.'

SBB

It wouldn't surprise me if the final identification will eventually be found in a regalia catalog or a magazine like this ...

[ Volume 1 ~ Issue No.2 ~ February 1879 ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I consider this to be a significant piece of evidence in support of my belief that the crossed swords pins are the insignia of a ...

"Uniform Rank Guard"

And that the numbers represent a ...

"Company"

The picture below is a page from a manual titled ...

"Ritual of The Uniform Rank, Knights of Pythias"

The Pythian Advocate

1906

Please note where it reads ...

THE OFFICERS

Of a Company of the Uniform Rank, Knights of Pythias

Consist of:

1. Captian
2. First Lieutenant
3. Second Lieutenant (or Herald).
4. Recorder
5. Treasurer
6. Guard
7. Sentinel

[ Please zoom if necessary ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This thread was started on September 8, 2011. Today's date is October 14, 2011.

After five long weeks of searching, it is my humble opinion that Bill_S's pin is an altered variation, and that it is similar to the following ...

1. Crossed Swords Pin
2. Knights of Pythias
3. Collar or Breast Pin
4. Uniform Rank Guard (Officer)
5. West Virginia
6. Company No.30
7. Circa 1906

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm adding this interior page from the manual where I found the officers list. You will notice the manual was printed in 1906, but that the "Rituals" it speaks of were adopted at the 20th Convention in 1898. It do not know the full extent of the Rituals it refers to, other than they apparently became standard practice among the Uniform Ranks in 1898.

As a reminder to those who may have forgotten, I came up with the 1906 date for the "West Virginia" pin based on information shown in the chart I posted on Page 5 of this thread ~ Post #477.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

I'm looking for a volunteer who has the tools, time, and talent to enlarge the picture of the "Officers" page from the manual. For whatever reason my picture editing tools will allow me to make it smaller, but not larger. I'd like to be able to read the lower portion of the page below the officers list. Zooming just makes it blurry.

Thanks a lot.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's one of those weird Uniform Rank rituals which is presented in a complete word for word discourse. It includes the text I copy/pasted examples of below, plus a full explanation for one of their secret hand shakes. It involves participation from a Captain, Sentinel, and Guard. Crazy stuff!

Uniform Rank, Knights of Pythias
Ritual of the Rank of Loyalty ~ 1898

Link: http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias-ur_r.html


Examples of text:

I present this Knight of Pythias, seeking admission to the sublime Grade of a Knight Loyal or Brother in Arms in the Military Rank of the Knights of Pythias.

... create and declare you a Knight Loyal and Brother in Arms in the Military Rank of the Knights of Pythias.

Tis well. I now declare … Company No. … ,of …, Uniform Rank, Knights of Pythias, formally closed until our next regular Assembly, unless otherwise ordered.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

After a great deal of magnifying ~ printing ~ and squinting ... plus a little help from my 34 year old daughter who lives in another state ... we were able to read the parts of the Officers page I was most interested in. Which are ...

[ First sentence in lower paragraph where it refers to the officers list ]

Their positions in the Castle are the same as those occupied by the Officers of a Lodge of Knights of Pythias.

[ Eighth Sentence ]

Guard or Warden, occupies chair of Inner Guard.

~ * ~

The term "Castle" is basically the same as "Lodge" except that Castle is used whenever it pertains to Uniform Rank activities. I'm not sure about the term "Warden," except in the sense of the individual who oversees a prison. But I believe it is just another word for "Guard."

All things considered, I believe this adds support to the crossed swords pins as being those of "Guards." Basically, it's saying that a "Guard" is the same whether he is in the Lodge or in the field participating in drill practice. Except in the Lodge he would be referred to as an "Inner Guard." But when in the field he would be referred to as a "Uniform Rank Guard." In other words; a Guard is a Guard is a Guard! (Lol).

~ To Summarize ~

I believe I have established that ...

1. The insignia of "Inner Guards" is of "Two Crossed Swords."

2. An "Inner Guard" and a "Uniform Rank Guard" are basically the same thing.

3. Both positions are considered "Officers."


SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I thought it might interest you to know I just purchased the following book from Amazon.com. I am gambling, but hopeful, that it contains the information and illustrations I am looking for. I will let you know just as soon as it arrives. Since I can't find one of those Knights of Pythias regalia catalogs for sale, I will settle on this one for the time being in furthering my research regarding the role of Uniform Rank Guards. The book is an original 1904 hardcover edition and not a reprint.

Knights of Pythias
Drill Regulations ~ Uniform Rank
By
Major General James R Carnahan
1904
537 Pages With Index

Also ... There is another book on Amazon.com I thought you might be interested in. It's about the history of the Colored Knights of Pythias. It is available for $5.00 + Postage. Here's a direct link to it if you want to check it out.

Link: Colored Knights of Pythias @ $5.00
http://www.amazon.com/HISTORY-COLOR...r_1_61?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318701890&sr=1-61

Later,

Bob

 

[allan]

Thats right around the time the uniforms were made to be of a certain style, They thought it would be better to have all UR "soldiers" look alike no matter what lodge/castle/state they came from. I think that crossed rifle pin was 04 or 05 ... too lazy to scroll back to it lol. now if we would have all the regalia catalogs from every maker from 1878 to 1905 or so.... we would have an answer, maybe Nice find buddy ! of course you will copy every page and make a pdf for it ?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

of course you will copy every page and make a pdf for it ?

Yeah, right ... I will at $1.00 per page! (Lol).

I paid $25.00 for the book. And it better have a picture of a crossed swords "Guard" pin in it or else I give up! I'm not spending another nickle on this project!

By the way ... I bid on that crossed swords chevron that closed on e-bay yesterday. It sold for $38.00. The guy who won it also won every single one of the other chevrons. I think he entered a maximum bid of about $100.00 on each one and then just sat back to see what happened. There was another bidder trying to get the last cheveron, but the same guy who won the others just gobbled it up for $51.00. I was only interested in the crossed swords patch.

Here's something that should spark your interest. But remember, Divisions all had "names" with the numbers. Like "S. S. Davis Division" in this case. Notice it's different from the one pictured in the 1886 book. I don't know the exact date of this pin, but intend to research the information on it in hopes of finding out.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Speaking of Companies, etc; the first image below is from the 1910 book and shows the national totals for 1904. Talk about confusing.

(Carnahan is the guy who wrote the 1904 book I purchased from Amazon.com).

The second image is also from the 1910 book and indicates how popular the Uniform Ranks were in influencing the growth of the organization. Plus, it confirms that in order to be in the Uniform Ranks, members also had to be Knights and members of a Lodge.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

The book I ordered from Amazon.com has not arrived yet, but will one day this week. In the meantime I am researching a lead I came across regarding a ...

~ * ~

1917 Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalog

KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS

Formed after the Civil War at the request of Abraham Lincoln to heal the divide in the Nation. The Knights of Pythias' emblems include the Calla Lilly, crossed swords, a sword on an open Bible and others. It bases its lessons and builds its rituals largely on the familiar story of Damon and Pythias, who were historical characters living about 400 or more years before the beginning of the Christian era. They were members of a school, founded by Pythagoras, who was known as the father of Greek philosophy. Another frequently seen emblem contains a triangle with the letters "F", "C" and "B" for Friendship, Charity and Benevolance.

~ * ~

The catalog is supposed to have a section on Knights of Pythias items. The picture below is of an original 1917 catalog. I discovered they made a reprint of it in 1969. But I cannot find a copy of either one, and was hoping a member might have one they can look through. It just might contain a picture of the crossed swords pin. If so, then ... ?

Thanks.

Bob

[ Catalogs dated just prior to and just after 1917 may also show something ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I went to my local library yesterday and checked out a 1969 reprint of a 1908 Sears & Roebuck catalog. They did not have the 1917 reprint. The picture below is one of two pages from the catalog that shows Knight of Pythias items. The second page is similar to this one, but shows a slightly different assortment of pins. The various pins shown here (most not KOP) average about $1.00 each. I suspect the 1917 catalog shows the same type of stuff, but I'm not sure.

SBB

[ Sears & Roebuck ~ 1908 ][ You will likely have to zoom to read the details ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I finally received the Uniform Rank book ... which I will be posting some information and pictures of later today or tomorrow. But don't hold your breath, because the book does not identify the cross-swords pin. Nor does the book contain any specific details about uniforms or insignias. I will explain later.

In the meantime, I am looking for a volunteer to access the following link and copy/paste the second reply that it contains. It is a website I contacted back on September 22nd, and where I posted a picture of the West Virginia pin. I would look at it myself, but am unable to. Apparently "Guest" are only allowed so many views, which I have exceeded, so I am locked out from any more views until I join, which I really don't want to do.

I have already seen the first reply, but it wasn't of much help. The second reply was just posted, and I am curious as to what it says ... thus my reason for asking for a volunteer. You should be able to view it without signing in or joining. Whatever occurrs, please let me know.

Thanks in advance to whoever takes this upon themselves. Here's the link. My post is currently the 6th one down, and will be easy to spot.

Bob

Link: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showforum=120

 

[allan]

you were the second poster

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Thanks. Something must have changed, because for the longest time (until just recently) it only indicated the one reply from ladybird. Oh well, thanks for trying anyway. As soon as I scan the book I will post some pictures from it. Possibly later today or tomorrow.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here are a few pictures from the 1904 book I purchased recently. Based on some additional information I gleaned from the book (and other sources) I now believe the West Virginia/30 and Connecticut/11 pin/shoulder-patch, designate ...

1. West Virginia
2. Brigade No.30

1. Connecticut
2. Brigade No.11

Previously I thought the numbers represented "Companies." But based on my latest research, it appears that any insignia with a state on it is more likely connected with a State Brigade. State Brigades were the groups that typically gathered at the yearly conventions, which were held in various locations over the years.

Please note there were hundreds of "Companies" within any given state, but possibly only a limited number of Brigades nationwide. And in some cases possibly only one Brigade per state. (More research is needed to determine these Brigade counts).

This in turn may explain the insignia's rareity ... meaning they were only worn once a year during annual conventions. This may also explain why the everyday pictures we see of various members do not show them wearing the crossed-swords insignia.

As for the "Rank" designition connected with crossed-swords, "Inner Guards" are still the only members I have ever come across that used it. However, since so many of the Knights of Pythias pins have crossed-swords intermingled with them, it is highly possible that the pins in question were generic and worn by "all" of the members of a Brigade who attended the various conventions.

At this juncture, I am convinced the only place we are likely to find out more about the pins in question, will be from the various "Regailia Catalogs" we have been talking about. I'm sure the final answer rest within these catalogs. But, as we have discovered, finding these catalogs is not going to be easy ... at least not for free. Someone somewhere along the line will likey have to purchase one or more to see what all they contain.

This will likely conclude my contributions to this topic, unless I happen to come across a regalia catalog one of these day ... a cheap one!

SBB

The 1904 book is almost exclusively about various marching and other formation "Drills" during regular sessions as well as during parades and conventions. It includes everything from how to properly draw a sword, to how to properly salute an officer. It also has a section for the mounted cavalry, in addition to where and how to properly pitch camp during outtings and conventions. One part even states that the first order of duty when pitching camp is to "Dig Sinks," which means "Outhouses." (Lol).

I consider the book a unique souvenir in connection with this most interesting topic.

The pictures are as follows ...

1. Front cover of book.
2. First Page.
3. Typical marching illustration.
4. How to properly cross swords illustration.
5. Uniform Rank helmet with tiny crossed-swords button.

(The book is filled with illustrations like these).

[ But nowhere in it does it discuss specifics about uniforms or insignias ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Lastly ...

I wanted to include this grouping of my favorite, and most significant pictures that I have contributed to this thread, which are show together here as a group for the first time.

Thanks to everyone for allowing me to indulge myself. It's been fun!

Later, alligators!

Bob

 

[High Plains Digger]

SBB: I believe that you can now claim the Supreme Grand Chancellorship as well as the title of Imperial Boopaa for all the research you have done and knowledge you have recovered. Let's update the badges with crossed metal detectors, and drill would be a perfect criss cross pattern of a field.

The Elks, and others, have a bar for refreshments before, after, after and after meetings. But they don't carry sharp pointy things like the UR. Perhaps that lead to it's demise. Close order drill requires complete sobriety. And speaking of sobriety, perhaps this is the reason Carrie Nation and those other women were so down on alchol--too much flowing at the battalion meetings. And battalion meetings 3 nights a week and Saturday afternoons. And perhaps this is the reason that with prohibition the UR fell out of favor. The meetings became downright boring without some good liquor. Now I think we can appreciate the importance of the advent of radio, and later, television to our grandfathers. Had a good excuse not to go to Battalion meetings: Can't come---Amos and Andy are on tonight or Gotta listen to the fights.