Hobby? Ask yourself this question.

[mxer47]

Many of you are aware of the tactics of the green movement (govt. agency's included) to define us as hobbyist or recreational gold prospectors, some are not aware.
I have thoroughly enjoyed my time prospecting in the sierras and continually look forward to each trip out. When I find a deposit of gold I try different techniques and equipment configurations to maximize my profit with the hope of freedom. This freedom I hope for is the ability to work the ground for enough money to live without having to rely upon anyone else for a period of a time, or ever. Some of you have done this already and I am envious. Some are just starting and I wish you all the luck. But if you call yourself a hobbyist or consider this a recreation ask yourself this question, if during your next trip you found a deposit you could replace your income with would you quit your job stake a clam, and start mining? If so you are a prospector period. If not for the sake of people like me who hope for freedom please refrain from using the terms hobby or recreation. Thank you.

 

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[fowledup]

PLP -Public Lands for the People, and WMA - Western Mining Alliance, both are heavily involved with some of the most critical cases in the court system at this time. There are many others these just happen to be my personal choice.

 

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[Oregon Viking]

Jefferson Mining District - Mining in Oregon - South West Oregon Mining Association

 

[ssdevilfish]

Cool I will check them suggestions out and it looks like I'm adding a new charity to my list. This is where this conversation should have started with names of real lobbyists who can give us weekend prospectors and miners a voice. As far as GPAA goes I loved the buzzard and think his son tom Massey and his family seem like good people . If it wasn't for gold fever I would not have even looked at gold prospecting. Ok guys you just convinced me that maybe some of these people can help. I'll do my part. I gave enough over the years to save fishing spots and hunting lands and gave good money to some people who did nothing. But I am a believer in ideals and am in a position to take on a new cause. So please in future let those of us myself for sure included whom are rookies, allow only those most educated in the topic of mining laws speak first. I am learning that in the gold prospecting business you can't learn enough. I am really liking this stuff. Lol

 

[GarretDiggingAz]

No TN message about PLP and the others?

Those are some I want to check into. It's nice to know that we could have somebody to back me if ever a problem. I don't think GPAA has a legal department for me if I get in trouble on one of their claims. Lol

 

[Goldwasher]

We are trying to come together but, people like Pay to play Terry and sit at home George would rather call our Ideals silly. I don't need to work my job to pay for gold....All I need is my brain, my boots, a shovel and a pan. And I would like the laws and regulations that ALREADY exist to afford the opportunity to others. Orginazation starts with Ideas and it sucks when fellas chime in and say we are wasting our time....shameful.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Wow.

 

[Fullpan]

The 1872 Mining Law is the law of the land. Until it is repealed or amended, it gives us the right to look for gold. When this law was passed, the collective
wisdom of Congress felt that encouraging people to look for gold, would benefit the entire country. Guess what ? - it did. In spades. If you believe now that
gold is no longer relevant, go ahead, like the enviros are doing, and spend millions to get this law repealed or radically changed. But, in the meantime, you cannot usurp this law by taking away the means (tools) to look for gold. That is what we are fighting in court.

Now try to follow me on some analogies. There is no U.S. law that protects the snow-ski industry. What if, god forbid, the millions of greenies decided that
building vast resorts, parking lots, tons of mechanical ski-lift equipment on top of pristine mountaintops, were harming, destroying the delicate eco system.
Do you think the casual skiers would go quietly into the night? Do you think the ski resort owners would fold their tents without a fight? Think that pro-skiers/snowboarders, like Shawn White would quietly submit his application to WalMart ? Again , the ski industry has no law protecting them.

What if, god forbid, the greenies went after the golf courses? They have taken pristine, natural landscapes and destroyed them by grading, fertilizing, mowing with noisy machinery - "wholesale destruction" of delicate ecosystems !! The 90% of of golfers, who are rank amateurs, surely would throw in the towel, right? And the pro golfers, seeing that they have no US LAW to protect them, will decide to work at McDonalds ("oh well, we were destructive, weren't we")

YEAH, RIGHT. FAT CHANCE

 

[fowledup]

Fullpan- your golf analogy is the best I've heard yet. If their, I mean our President wasn't a golfer they probably would be attacking golf! Golf is a recreational hobby that is destroying endangered Earthworm habitat across the globe. I can hear the screams of terror as the divots are ripped from Mother Earth' s bosom! Not to mention the golf balls that are clogging up the ponds and terrorizing the mountain yellow legged frog in its natural man made habitat enclosure, I mean biospace.
I am currently working on a new advancement in technology that will allow your average Subaru driver the ability to siphon up these foreign objects from the depths of the pond, a vacuum cleaner if you will. Word is there are some lucrative grants, something about a blank check that may be available to pay for operating expenses, wages, and a modest administration fee. I don't know this is a big job that may take years.

 

[Terry Soloman]

The 1872 Mining Law is the law of the land. Until it is repealed or amended, it gives us the right to look for gold. When this law was passed, the collective
wisdom of Congress felt that encouraging people to look for gold, would benefit the entire country. Guess what ? - it did. In spades. If you believe now that
gold is no longer relevant, go ahead, like the enviros are doing, and spend millions to get this law repealed or radically changed. But, in the meantime, you cannot usurp this law by taking away the means (tools) to look for gold. That is what we are fighting in court.

Now try to follow me on some analogies. There is no U.S. law that protects the snow-ski industry. What if, god forbid, the millions of greenies decided that
building vast resorts, parking lots, tons of mechanical ski-lift equipment on top of pristine mountaintops, were harming, destroying the delicate eco system.
Do you think the casual skiers would go quietly into the night? Do you think the ski resort owners would fold their tents without a fight? Think that pro-skiers/snowboarders, like Shawn White would quietly submit his application to WalMart ? Again , the ski industry has no law protecting them.

What if, god forbid, the greenies went after the golf courses? They have taken pristine, natural landscapes and destroyed them by grading, fertilizing, mowing with noisy machinery - "wholesale destruction" of delicate ecosystems !! The 90% of of golfers, who are rank amateurs, surely would throw in the towel, right? And the pro golfers, seeing that they have no US LAW to protect them, will decide to work at McDonalds ("oh well, we were destructive, weren't we")

YEAH, RIGHT. FAT CHANCE

Love it. It has no relevance to the fight to regain the rights to dredging but it shows what numbers and money can do to sway public opinion. Millions of golfers, millions of skiers with well financed lobbies and national organizations. Billions of dollars in revenues and very FAMILY FRIENDLY activities.

Who are gold miners REALLY fighting? The government? Environmentalists? Fisherman? How many of us are there? Not millions. MAYBE a few hundred thousand - maybe..

We have to FOCUS. Hone in on WHO our "enemies" really are and stop trying to sue our federal and local governments for rights we already have. The PLP is a JOKE. A fly on an elephant. If we don’t start embracing public opinion, and turning gold prospecting into a “family friendly hobby” instead of acting like a bunch of backwoods pistol pullers that hate the government, looking to fight any and all comers that disagree with us we have already lost. Comparing us to golfers, skiers, bicyclists, fisherman, joggers or boaters is just ridiculous. We just don’t have the numbers to back us up.

Why aren’t we mad at the manufacturers and equipment dealers that have yet to back a national lobby? They mine us every day. Where are they? Why haven’t they stepped up to create a national lobby? Time to stop peeing into the wind people.

 

[kazcoro]

I have been following this thread, and have copied the defintions of prospector and prospect here.

This first one is from the Cambridge Dictionary for prospector.

"a person or company whose job is searching for gold, oil, or other valuable substances on or under the surface of the Earth"

This one is from the Webster's Dictionary for prospect.

" the possibility that something will happen in the future

: an opportunity for something to happen

: someone or something that is likely to succeed or to be chosen".

I don't want to get embroiled in the heated debate that has come to fruition here, but it seems by definition, that a prospector is someone who's job is to search for gold looking for an opportunity to happen.

The Oxford Dictionary says that a miner is

"a person who works in a mine".

Merriam Webster says that placer mining is defined as

"the process of extracting minerals from a placer esp. by washing, dredging, or hydraulic mining"

So, by these accepted definitions, a miner is someone who works in a mine, and placer mining is the process of extracting minerals from a placer by washing, dredging, or hydraulic mining.

Wickepedia says that drywashing is as follows.

"The drywasher is a common desert mining tool for gold mining. The drywasher is like a highbanker since it uses a motor and a form of sluice however it lacks the need for water."

Again, by definition, all the methods we use to find gold are considered mining. By using this equipment, we are all miners. The act of prospecting is a person doing their job of searching for minerals with the possibility of something happening in the future. The act of mining is using this equipment to extract those minerals.

 

[Oregon Viking]

Love it. It has no relevance to the fight to regain the rights to dredging but it shows what numbers and money can do to sway public opinion. Millions of golfers, millions of skiers with well financed lobbies and national organizations. Billions of dollars in revenues and very FAMILY FRIENDLY activities.

Who are gold miners REALLY fighting? The government? Environmentalists? Fisherman? How many of us are there? Not millions. MAYBE a few hundred thousand - maybe..

We have to FOCUS. Hone in on WHO our "enemies" really are and stop trying to sue our federal and local governments for rights we already have. The PLP is a JOKE. A fly on an elephant. If we don’t start embracing public opinion, and turning gold prospecting into a “family friendly hobby” instead of acting like a bunch of backwoods pistol pullers that hate the government, looking to fight any and all comers that disagree with us we have already lost. Comparing us to golfers, skiers, bicyclists, fisherman, joggers or boaters is just ridiculous. We just don’t have the numbers to back us up.

Why aren’t we mad at the manufacturers and equipment dealers that have yet to back a national lobby? They mine us every day. Where are they? Why haven’t they stepped up to create a national lobby? Time to stop peeing into the wind people.

I...do not like you.
What you say...
how you say it...
The Manner in how you say it!

 

[Oregon Viking]

I...do not like you.
What you say...
how you say it...
The Manner in how you say it!

The PLP is a joke?
I have one of their shirts....money goes to the good fight!!!
I wear that shirt PLP...forest circus .....No likee!!
Hmmmm
Someone/group..... that fightl LIKE HELL to defends simple mining rights ...is not a joke!!
you, sir are pissin' me off!!!!!!

 

[Oregon Viking]

The PLP is a joke?
I have one of their shirts....money goes to the good fight!!!
I wear that shirt PLP...forest circus .....No likee!!
Hmmmm
Someone/group..... that fightl LIKE HELL to defends simple mining rights ...is not a joke!!
you, sir are pissin' me off!!!!!!

This is a PRO mining forum.

 

[mxer47]

We do need better public opinion, and we need to educate the youth about mining and the benefits including the fun freedom and opportunity to acquire true wealth that has permanent value. Also teaching them about the protection afforded by law as well as the dangers of using terms that strip us of those protections. Lets hope they learn better than some participating here.

 

[fowledup]

Touche Terry, I get it, you've been having a little fun trolling the gang, well played! Was just on your website and noticed the somewhat backwoods (desert) photo of you posing in front of the ole four-by, packing a pistol up front for all to see. Couldn't help but notice your humorous not so pro government pictures and posters on the same page, especially the Photoshop one of your commander and chief dancing with Governor Palin. Man I fell for it, your good, ROFLMAO, spit my drink all over the keyboard, gotta clean the monitor and such.
Now that the jig is up and the cats out of the bag who do you really suggest we support and how? What are some of your specific ideas and efforts? I'm open minded and here to help. To rephrase what I said before- if it keeps you knee deep in the bucket listers, it'll keep all of us backwoods, government hating, pistol packing miners mining, (wink-wink). Any who take care friend. Man I swear the older I get the more gullable I get, shoulda seen that coming!

 

[Fullpan]

Love it. It has no relevance to the fight to regain the rights to dredging but it shows what numbers and money can do to sway public opinion. Millions of golfers, millions of skiers with well financed lobbies and national organizations. Billions of dollars in revenues and very FAMILY FRIENDLY activities.

Who are gold miners REALLY fighting? The government? Environmentalists? Fisherman? How many of us are there? Not millions. MAYBE a few hundred thousand - maybe..

We have to FOCUS. Hone in on WHO our "enemies" really are and stop trying to sue our federal and local governments for rights we already have. The PLP is a JOKE. A fly on an elephant. If we don’t start embracing public opinion, and turning gold prospecting into a “family friendly hobby” instead of acting like a bunch of backwoods pistol pullers that hate the government, looking to fight any and all comers that disagree with us we have already lost. Comparing us to golfers, skiers, bicyclists, fisherman, joggers or boaters is just ridiculous. We just don’t have the numbers to back us up.

Why aren’t we mad at the manufacturers and equipment dealers that have yet to back a national lobby? They mine us every day. Where are they? Why haven’t they stepped up to create a national lobby? Time to stop peeing into the wind people.

Here's another of my silly analogies. The Vichy government in France tried to be "family-friendly" to the Nazis. It took the English and americans to rescue the people from the Nazis AND their own leaders. APPEASEMENT NEVER !

 

[Goodyguy]

Love it. It has no relevance to the fight to regain the rights to dredging but it shows what numbers and money can do to sway public opinion. Millions of golfers, millions of skiers with well financed lobbies and national organizations. Billions of dollars in revenues and very FAMILY FRIENDLY activities.

Who are gold miners REALLY fighting? The government? Environmentalists? Fisherman? How many of us are there? Not millions. MAYBE a few hundred thousand - maybe..

We have to FOCUS. Hone in on WHO our "enemies" really are and stop trying to sue our federal and local governments for rights we already have. The PLP is a JOKE. A fly on an elephant. If we don’t start embracing public opinion, and turning gold prospecting into a “family friendly hobby” instead of acting like a bunch of backwoods pistol pullers that hate the government, looking to fight any and all comers that disagree with us we have already lost. Comparing us to golfers, skiers, bicyclists, fisherman, joggers or boaters is just ridiculous. We just don’t have the numbers to back us up.

Why aren’t we mad at the manufacturers and equipment dealers that have yet to back a national lobby? They mine us every day. Where are they? Why haven’t they stepped up to create a national lobby? Time to stop peeing into the wind people.

......... In that case why aren't we mad at those who mine folks who want to experience what prospecting is all about while we are at it. Where are their lobby donations?

A prime example of how well a "family friendly hobby" has fared across the country is the continued closing of thousands of public lands to metal detecting. And of course we need to blame the manufactures and dealers of metal detectors for that too I suppose.

Do you really think that the mom and pop prospecting equipment dealers and manufacturers have the resources to out lobby the real agenda?

It seems to me you have described one source of our problem..............
It's misguided folks who don't know the facts or even have a clue about what we are really up against.

Without real committed unified action by all of us who are affected and by "action" I mean real action not just moaning and pointing fingers at one another, we are just "peeing into the wind" as you so aptly put it.

As far as lobbying goes. Our united voices to the powers that be along with our donations to those fighting in the courts is our most powerful weapon in lieu of an unlikely to ever happen well funded national lobby, especially if there are only a few hundred thousand of us being affected. (not sure where you came up with that number) And as far as manufactures and dealers go you may be surprised at how many already do donate to the cause.

Actually the root of the cause to our dilemma lies with the ideals instilled through our liberal educational system decrying the use of the natural habitat by humans as being unacceptable. The schools is where our fight really needs to be to eventually sway legislation in our favor but that would take longer than we have. After all, our real enemies have had a long head start of molding young minds to agree with their agenda.

What needs to be understood is that they do not really care if it's family friendly, a hobby, or recreation, or a livelihood, they just want us to get out of their view of a pristine environment.

I can tell you one thing with all certainty, It's absolutely absurd to believe that we could ever win this battle in court by using the "family friendly recreational hobby" defense!

Truth be told the anti dredging campaign was really started by the greed and jealousy of a group of tribal fishermen using harm to the environment and wildlife by the dredgers citing damage to thier salmon fishing livelihood as their argument to put and end to the competition by the dredgers for use of the waterways. Since then the well funded envirowackos have taken up their cause and it now has to be settled in the courts. Using actual written law arguments not touchy feeley non law protected arguments such as "family friendly" "hobby" or "recreational" which carry absolutely no weight with the court.

I hope this opens a few eyes to what the real issues are and why the use of the while well intentioned but misguided terminology actually works against what is trying to be accomplished by those in the know, and whom are actually putting their money, time, effort and energy toward achieving a victory in court for all of us. So go ahead and bash them while you do nothing but moan and accuse.

With all due respect,
GG~

 

[Oakview2]

GG, King for the day

 

[Terry Soloman]

......... In that case why aren't we mad at those who mine folks who want to experience what prospecting is all about while we are at it. Where are their lobby donations? ..

I gave $1,000.00 to PLP way back before it was "fashionable." I just refuse to throw more of my money away, and instead, bring out local politians and school children for free to let them experience our "hobby" first hand. If there is EVER a National Lobby, I'll support it with time and money. We need to EDUCATE the public on why we LOVE this "hobby" so much, and why we are willing to spend so much money in its pursuit.

The "sky is falling" crowd is always going to want our money to "fight the good fight." The question is, do they have the right tools to fight with, and the moral character to win? Folks can disagree with my opinion, but we continue to lose more and more rights, and PLP isn't really slowing that down a bit. We need to refocus and come up with a BETTER game plan. We NEED Big Mining, and Manufacturers to step in with some funding and some management talent to help out and support small miners and hobby prospectors. When someone can ORGANIZE the grass roots, THEN we will be ready to do battle against the demons that are against us.

 

[Goodyguy]

I know you are a good man Terry,

I remember the time a few years back when a group of us from here on T-net donated some of our cool metal detecting finds to help underprivileged kids go on a treasure hunt. That day and those treasures will be a memory that those children will cherish for a lifetime I'm sure.

You were there with donations as well and If I remember correctly you even donated your time to help out with the event in person. You earned my respect then and that has not changed.

I am on board with you about needing to organize a grass roots coalition to help turn the tide of public opinion. As far as big mining goes they could care less about donating to the efforts of someone who is playing at prospecting as a "hobby". As if a recreational prospector is ever going to spend big money on a commercial mining operation.

Sometimes you just have to go with what is already in place and try to build from there. If You or someone else comes up with something better in the meantime then I'll be on board with it. Otherwise I'll continue to support those who are actually engaged in "working" on the problem trying to get results in the here and now and not waiting for some other better pie in the sky plan to magically appear sometime in the future.

GG~