Im looking for an Xterra 705 coil in 7.5kh but elliptical DD

[Backstrap80]

Anyone know of one made? Can Minelab put the 7.5kh in a "gold" coil?

 

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[dirtscratcher]

Anyone know of one made? Can Minelab put the 7.5kh in a "gold" coil?

Look at the nel coils out of Ukraine. They make two sizes one at 5 and a half by 9 and a half and one I think 9and a half by 12 and a half.

 

[Longhair]

Look at the nel coils out of Ukraine. They make two sizes one at 5 and a half by 9 and a half and one I think 9and a half by 12 and a half.

You already know what I'm going to say.
The only aftermarket coils authorized by Minelab are made by Coiltek. Period. None of the eastern European coils are made with actual V-Flex, but rather they steal patented technology via reverse engineering. Coiltek on the other hand, benefits from an agreement with Minelab that gets them specifications available to nobody else, which is why they make the best coils for all Minelabs.

Backstrap80, what draws you to an elliptical coil? What's the allure? Are you looking for coverage without depth? Ellipticals are depth limited by their width, and separation limited by their length.They are fine for coverage on recent drops, but if depth is important you'll do better with a round coil.

 

[dirtscratcher]

You already know what I'm going to say.
The only aftermarket coils authorized by Minelab are made by Coiltek. Period. None of the eastern European coils are made with actual V-Flex, but rather they steal patented technology via reverse engineering. Coiltek on the other hand, benefits from an agreement with Minelab that gets them specifications available to nobody else, which is why they make the best coils for all Minelabs.

Backstrap80, what draws you to an elliptical coil? What's the allure? Are you looking for coverage without depth? Ellipticals are depth limited by their width, and separation limited by their length.They are fine for coverage on recent drops, but if depth is important you'll do better with a round coil.

Just answering the question. They are the only one I know of and they work very good. If minelab made a 5 by 10 mid freq that was waterproof and not as expensive as the other vflex coils I would have bought one from them.

 

[Longhair]

Just answering the question. They are the only one I know of and they work very good.

And you conveniently forgot to mention that they are illegally sold here? Or that if something were to happen to your machine while it had one on it would void warranty?

If minelab made a 5 by 10 mid freq that was waterproof and not as expensive as the other vflex coils I would have bought one from them.

So in reality it's all about being cheap and what you want, even though they are (for obvious reasons) an inferior product.

Nobody has even mentioned the elephant in the room....so I will.
What happens to your warranty or supply when Putin/Russia takes over the rest of Ukraine? Who are you going to cry to when trade sanctions kick in and they are cut off from the western world?
Bottom line....is that your effort would be better spent contacting Coiltek and lobbying for what you want from a company that legally produces aftermarket items for your machine. How do you think that we got four new authorized coils in the last couple years? It surely wasn't because people bought pirated crap from com-bloc manufacturers!

 

[dirtscratcher]

And you conveniently forgot to mention that they are illegally sold here? Or that if something were to happen to your machine while it had one on it would void warranty?

So in reality it's all about being cheap and what you want, even though they are (for obvious reasons) an inferior product.

Nobody has even mentioned the elephant in the room....so I will.
What happens to your warranty or supply when Putin/Russia takes over the rest of Ukraine? Who are you going to cry to when trade sanctions kick in and they are cut off from the western world?
Bottom line....is that your effort would be better spent contacting Coiltek and lobbying for what you want from a company that legally produces aftermarket items for your machine. How do you think that we got four new authorized coils in the last couple years? It surely wasn't because people bought pirated crap from com-bloc manufacturers!

Illegal? Why are they being sold by dealers. Cheap is just a big plus. I'm willing to bet you have never tried them but still preach that they are inferior. Which you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. I'm opinion vflex is just a way to try to extort money from consumers. Original question was who offers said coil and the only answer is nel.

 

[Longhair]

Illegal? Why are they being sold by dealers. Cheap is just a big plus.

They aren't being sold by reputable dealers. They are a direct patent infringement, and the only reason that people here are selling them is because they aren't being caught. V-Flex and FBS2 coils are the only licensed technology coils out there, so investigators overlook them mixed in with all the older technology accessories being shipped in.

I'm willing to bet you have never tried them but still preach that they are inferior. Which you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is.

Ummm...truth be told I did have one a few years back (bought second hand and before it was widely known that it was stolen technology), and they ARE inferior. Both Minelab and Coiltek have invested huge amounts of time and money developing and testing their products cooperatively. There is no way that reverse engineered stuff, slapped together to make a quick buck, in a part of the world known for quality (NOT!) can compete.

I'm opinion vflex is just a way to try to extort money from consumers.

Then you know nothing about V-Flex. I suggest that you actually put forth a little effort to learn what it is and what it does before making baseless claims.

Original question was who offers said coil and the only answer is nel.

The only answer is, "Nobody makes one worth spending your hard earned on...yet".

Honestly, back when there was only one 3kHz coil available (the Minelab 9" concentric) I used to think more like you, but I was shown the reality of what was going on and what all was involved. It resulted in Randy, myself, and several others pestering Minelab (and subsequently Coiltek) to give us more. They listened. Which proves that if enough people stand up on the right side and make their wants/needs/desires known to the people that truly matter, it will come to pass and top shelf products will be made legitimately.

 

[dirtscratcher]

They aren't being sold by reputable dealers. They are a direct patent infringement, and the only reason that people here are selling them is because they aren't being caught. V-Flex and FBS2 coils are the only licensed technology coils out there, so investigators overlook them mixed in with all the older technology accessories being shipped in.
Ummm...truth be told I did have one a few years back (bought second hand and before it was widely known that it was stolen technology), and they ARE inferior. Both Minelab and Coiltek have invested huge amounts of time and money developing and testing their products cooperatively. There is no way that reverse engineered stuff, slapped together to make a quick buck, in a part of the world known for quality (NOT!) can compete.
Then you know nothing about V-Flex. I suggest that you actually put forth a little effort to learn what it is and what it does before making baseless claims.
The only answer is, "Nobody makes one worth spending your hard earned on...yet".

Honestly, back when there was only one 3kHz coil available (the Minelab 9" concentric) I used to think more like you, but I was shown the reality of what was going on and what all was involved. It resulted in Randy, myself, and several others pestering Minelab (and subsequently Coiltek) to give us more. They listened. Which proves that if enough people stand up on the right side and make their wants/needs/desires known to the people that truly matter, it will come to pass and top shelf products will be made legitimately.

First they are being sold by reputable dealers do a search. Second why don't you explain the magic of vflex? So we should just pester Minelab for what we want. Seems another company selling what we want would be a big clue. If vflex were so special these detectors should kick ass at something but I've yet to see what that could be. Calling vflex special doesn't make it so.

 

[Longhair]

Second why don't you explain the magic of vflex? Calling vflex special doesn't make it so.

VFLEX uses state of the art digital electronics and signal processing to enhance conventional single frequency (VLF) metal detector technology. VFLEX provides increased detecting performance with perfect sine wave transmission, an in-coil signal booster and coil selectable transmit frequencies.

World’s First All-Digital Metal Detectors
VFLEX transforms conventional single frequency metal detection technology by including two microcontrollers (miniature computers), one inside the control box and one inside the coil. Every time the detector starts up, the microcontrollers establish communication via a digital data link. The coil microcontroller communicates the coil’s configuration, size and exact frequency, so the control box can generate a perfectly matched transmit signal. This significantly reduces distortion and increases Target ID accuracy.

Perfect Sine Wave Transmission
VFLEX technology generates and transmits a perfect high quality sine wave, using the same technology that is found in high quality digital audio players, and is produced without distortion. The removal of distortion maximises power transmitted from the coil, therefore increasing detection depth and sensitivity. This also results in enhanced Target ID accuracy and greater immunity to both ground and environmental noise.

In-Coil Signal Booster
Weak target signals are amplified inside the coil, before the receive signal is sent up the coil cable where interference and signal loss can occur. This technique improves immunity to electrical noise by reducing false signals and increasing target signal strength, therefore improving detection depth and sensitivity.



Coil Selectable Transmit Frequencies
By changing the coil you can change the detector’s frequency, maximising sensitivity and depth for a wide range of target types and conditions. VFLEX gives you three frequencies to choose from: 3 kHz, 7.5 kHz and 18.75 kHz.

 

[dirtscratcher]

VFLEX uses state of the art digital electronics and signal processing to enhance conventional single frequency (VLF) metal detector technology. VFLEX provides increased detecting performance with perfect sine wave transmission, an in-coil signal booster and coil selectable transmit frequencies.

World’s First All-Digital Metal Detectors
VFLEX transforms conventional single frequency metal detection technology by including two microcontrollers (miniature computers), one inside the control box and one inside the coil. Every time the detector starts up, the microcontrollers establish communication via a digital data link. The coil microcontroller communicates the coil’s configuration, size and exact frequency, so the control box can generate a perfectly matched transmit signal. This significantly reduces distortion and increases Target ID accuracy.

Perfect Sine Wave Transmission
VFLEX technology generates and transmits a perfect high quality sine wave, using the same technology that is found in high quality digital audio players, and is produced without distortion. The removal of distortion maximises power transmitted from the coil, therefore increasing detection depth and sensitivity. This also results in enhanced Target ID accuracy and greater immunity to both ground and environmental noise.

In-Coil Signal Booster
Weak target signals are amplified inside the coil, before the receive signal is sent up the coil cable where interference and signal loss can occur. This technique improves immunity to electrical noise by reducing false signals and increasing target signal strength, therefore improving detection depth and sensitivity.



Coil Selectable Transmit Frequencies
By changing the coil you can change the detector’s frequency, maximising sensitivity and depth for a wide range of target types and conditions. VFLEX gives you three frequencies to choose from: 3 kHz, 7.5 kHz and 18.75 kHz.

This will be the last I reply to this. The question was where to find an elliptical coil for his exttra. On every forum for every brand there is a guy insisting that only that brands coils or any other equipment is the best or only option almost like it's their job. I own an exterra and think it is a pretty good detector also enjoy it most with the nel sharpshooter on it. That ad you posted makes it out as the fastest, deepest, and most accurate detector made. Once again the only thing vflex does that I can tell is link coil to detector for changing freq and trying to force you to buy their products. This is because I don't find it that fast or deep or accurate. When I say this it is not to be mean for the price it is a very capable detector. Vflex reminds me of Corinthian Leather they put in Chrysler car in the 70s.

 

[Backstrap80]

If there wasn't a NEED NEL wouldn't be selling a thing. Every tool I've ever bought has been paid for by finds. I can only wish Minelab and Coiltek made what I need, With that said, ima PM you longhair.

 

[Texas Looter]

If Longhair and Minelab does not want people to use other coils they need to build what people want.
Coiltec might build one some day but when they do it will cost a lot more and not be any better.

Look at the 5x10" they built for the CTX. $369.00 for a coil when minelabs 6" can be bought new for $175.00.

Nel builds coils for other name brand detectors and I don't see them with appointed or self appointed defenders.

Give it a break.

 

[gdzag]

You already know what I'm going to say.
The only aftermarket coils authorized by Minelab are made by Coiltek. Period. None of the eastern European coils are made with actual V-Flex, but rather they steal patented technology via reverse engineering. Coiltek on the other hand, benefits from an agreement with Minelab that gets them specifications available to nobody else, which is why they make the best coils for all Minelabs.

Backstrap80, what draws you to an elliptical coil? What's the allure? Are you looking for coverage without depth? Ellipticals are depth limited by their width, and separation limited by their length.They are fine for coverage on recent drops, but if depth is important you'll do better with a round coil.

Longhair, I only have my word, but I found a very small 14k Gold Ring at 7-8 inches, with my Xterra 705 and the Minelab DD 10" x 5".
Is there a difference between DD and "ellipticle"? Still learning, but I though they were the same. Although, I guess Concentric Coils can be ellipticle.

 

[Longhair]

Is there a difference between DD and "ellipticle"? Still learning, but I though they were the same. Although, I guess Concentric Coils can be ellipticle.

It all has to do with how the windings inside the coil are configured. Coil configuration is entirely independent from dimension. There are round and elliptical coils that are DD, and both that are concentric as well.

 

[gdzag]

You already know what I'm going to say.
The only aftermarket coils authorized by Minelab are made by Coiltek. Period. None of the eastern European coils are made with actual V-Flex, but rather they steal patented technology via reverse engineering. Coiltek on the other hand, benefits from an agreement with Minelab that gets them specifications available to nobody else, which is why they make the best coils for all Minelabs.

Backstrap80, what draws you to an elliptical coil? What's the allure? Are you looking for coverage without depth? Ellipticals are depth limited by their width, and separation limited by their length.They are fine for coverage on recent drops, but if depth is important you'll do better with a round coil.

Now when I process that... It leads me to ask this... If ellipticals are depth inhibited, why do Coiltek 15" WOTs go so deep, isn't it just two elliptical windings, one "send" and one "receive"within one housing? I guess that'd be true of any DD though... Two ellipticals within one housing. So no DD goes as deep as a similarly or comparable sized Concentric Coil?

 

[Longhair]

So no DD goes as deep as a similarly or comparable sized Concentric Coil?

In mild or neutral soil conditions this is correct.
However, in heavily mineralized conditions a DD may well see deeper due to the lesser total volume of minerals in the detection field to compensate for.

 

[atomicscott]

Now when I process that... It leads me to ask this... If ellipticals are depth inhibited, why do Coiltek 15" WOTs go so deep, isn't it just two elliptical windings, one "send" and one "receive"within one housing? I guess that'd be true of any DD though... Two ellipticals within one housing. So no DD goes as deep as a similarly or comparable sized Concentric Coil?

The windings will be larger in a round coil (obviously), hence the increased depth. Elliptical coils will have a narrower area of windings. Generally a coils depth is about the same as the size of said coil. An 8" round concentric coil should be about 8" depth (air testing a quarter). A 15" round coil is going to have a larger daimeter than, say a 15 x 10" elliptical coil (which would be 12.5" total diameter). That is why round coils are (generally) deeper. A concentric will be deeper in good (low mineralized) ground. A DD will be deeper in mineralized ground as it 'sees' less mineralization allowing it to find deeper targets.

 

[gdzag]

Easy to understand, the way you both explain it. Thanks

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

You already know what I'm going to say.
The only aftermarket coils authorized by Minelab are made by Coiltek. Period. None of the eastern European coils are made with actual V-Flex, but rather they steal patented technology via reverse engineering. Coiltek on the other hand, benefits from an agreement with Minelab that gets them specifications available to nobody else, which is why they make the best coils for all Minelabs.
\

Agreed! Coiltek are by FAR the best coils out.

 

[WhatAboutBob]

I didn't want to bring this thread back to life, but some of the NEL coil talk drives me crazy. I am a patent attorney with degrees in electrical engineering and I wanted to comment on a few points. I am posting under a different account than I normally do to preserve some anonymity; nothing I say should be construed as LEGAL ADVICE and is presented for informational purposes only. If you want to know more, do your own research or seek out the advice of a paid professional.

First, Minelab holds a 43-claim patent on the VFLEX technology, as indicated on on their website, with the United States Patent Office (via Google), and under the international Patent Cooperation Treaty (which includes the Ukraine). What does this mean?

The patent right is the right to prevent others from making, using, or selling the covered invention. That's all it is. If NEL in the Ukraine is violating any one or all of the claims in the Minelab patent, then Minelab has the legal right to sue for an injunction and damages in any of the countries their patent is violated. And in patents, damages are big -- in the USA, you can get triple actual damages for willful infringement plus costs and expenses. Of course, it might cost you millions and years of time to get there.

Is NEL infringing on the Minelab VFLEX patent? If NEL is infringing, why doesn't Minelab sue?

I am not going to take the time to delve into Minelab's patent claims and then disassemble and compare a NEL coil to assess whether the claims are infringed. On this point, I am just going to give Minelab the benefit of the doubt that NEL is infringing. If NEL can come up with a coil that doesn't infringe the claims and still works with the X-Terra line, they are free to do so. More power to them. However, given the way such designs are implemented, it is highly unlikely they could do so. Finally, if Minelab's Patent Attorney drafted a set of claims that could be easily gotten around, he deserves to be fired. I'm not going to even address the validity of the patent. It doesn't matter whether you think they should have the patent or not -- and I am sure you have the legal and technical expertise to analyze patent claim validity -- they have it, so legally they are entitled to the patent rights.

So why aren't they suing NEL into oblivion, eh? This is conjecture, but if I had to guess, it would be that it's too expensive and time consuming at this point. I'm sure they have put NEL on written notice -- as required for maximum damages -- but it might not be worth it to sue them at this point, and particularly to try to sue them in the Ukraine* where they are manufactured.** If you lose 10% of your profits to sales of knock-offs, it doesn't make much sense to spend 25%+ of your remaining profits to sue. This is especially true since the X-Terra line of metal detectors is, in the end, only a small slice of the hobbyist metal detector market segment, which is turn is only a tiny piece of the entire metal detector market. I am willing to bet that the majority of Minelab's business comes from government and industry: geology & mining, security, military contracts, etc.

Minelab has the right to petition the US state department (actually, the US International Trade Commission) to ban imports of infringing goods***, but again, it may currently cost more to do so now than it hurts them in terms of lost sales. So dealers are able to import small numbers of NEL coils for the X-Terra (remember, other NEL coils may be perfectly legal) under the radar. It doesn't make it right, but it makes it possible. And if the activity became large enough, you bet your butts Minelab will take action.

Finally, if you are complaining that NEL should be allowed to sell coils that are different models from what CoilTek or Minelab sell, well... I suspect that you're also probably the same type of entitled person who breaks other laws that personally inconvenience you, if you think you can get away with it.

A patent gives Minelab the right to stop NEL, so ask Minelab to make you a new coil. Otherwise just live with it and wait for the patent to expire in about 9 years.


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*I have several Ukrainian lawyer-friends who live and work in Kiev and their court system is not, shall we say, quite up to US standards for justice, efficiency, and freedom from corruption. (And you thought our courts were slow and expensive.)

**Note in the PCT application that, as of 2012, they have withdrawn their patent application under the European Patent Office -- meaning that they don't have patent protection over VFLEX in Europe (as claimed in the original application. I didn't check for other applications.) This means that it may be perfectly legal for NEL to manufacture their coil, just not legal to sell it outside of Europe.

**interestingly, under the Lanham Act, you can import an infringing good that you bought abroad into the USA for your personal use, but you can not import infringing goods to sell.