Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[cactusjumper]

Great post Matthew, and not simply because I agree with it. The Pit mine MAY not be the Silver Chief of course, it is not really possible to say with absolute certainty at this point since the original locators of the Chief are long dead. I think the Pit mine is the Silver Chief, OR possibly one of the other old mines that existed in that district in the late 1870s when it was organized and claims staked. I have not been to the Pit mine to examine it, but did get to examine specimens of ore from it, shown to me by Cactusjumper and I trust the provenance. It does look like silver chloride ore to me, and I am not an expert in silver ores but have been learning it. One key point of most silver minerals is the hardness, most are quite soft and can be scratched with a pocket knife or pin. That ore specimen had what appeared to be silver chloride and a pin did scratch it, meaning it is fairly soft.

No one is saying that the men who re-opened the mine and worked it in recent years were mining silver. I have certainly never proposed that. Gold does occur in silver mines, sometimes in excellent pockets. Based on what we know of this story, I would say the most likely explanation is that they were able to locate a rich pocket of gold ore, inside what was an old silver mine. When a pocket of gold occurs in a silver mine, it usually happens at some depth, indicating that perhaps the action of water percolating through the rock has caused it by leaching out the silver and leaving behind gold, but that is entirely theoretical as an explanation for why this happens. It is also possible they simply cleaned out a cache left there by someone else. It seems that an old played out silver mine would make a great place to hide gold ore as a cache, since few would ever think to look for gold in a silver mine. It is not that unusual to find pockets of gold in silver mines, even in Arizona this has happened a number of times including at mines in the Tombstone district, the Silver King district and the Randolph/Rogers district. But from what has been provided in the way of information, the men who mined the Pit mine were mining it, not just removing a cache which would hardly require the effort and equipment they obviously used.

Also have to agree that pursuing leads like the PVC pipe etc are not going to prove very helpful.

The records available on the Randolph/Rogers district are pretty limited so we do not know if the Silver Chief was an already existing mine when it was discovered in 1878 time period, but it is certainly possible. With the various 'clues' that seem to fit this site, and the fact that we can link those 'clues' to the story of the Ludys and by extension, Peralta, it is quite possible that the Pit mine is in fact the Peralta mine from which so many clues originated. The Peralta lost mine story started life as a lost SILVER mine, not gold, and coincidentally Bicknell reported finding signs of primitive silver smelting having been done in a stone cabin, which he found by following the clues he obtained from Julia and other local sources. Had Pierpont C Bicknell not been blinded by confusing the gold with silver, he might have found the lost silver mine himself. Yes this is circumstantial evidence by definition, and speculation as well, but in my opinion (worth exactly what all opinions are worth) there is a very strong possibility that the Pit mine IS the lost Peralta mine of legend.

On the other hand, I am also convinced that the Peralta story and all the clues associated with that, have nothing to do with the gold mine of Jacob Waltz from which the ore found in the candle box originated. I believe that the stories have gotten mixed together, wrongly, almost from the very beginning, and quite possibly mixed by Holmes, Julia or even by Waltz himself deliberately or due to the confused thinking of a fevered mind in its death throes. Holmes himself, according to the Holmes manuscript, did not follow the clues on his first quest for Waltz's mine; instead he went straight to Hidden Water spring, re-tracing the route he had (allegedly) trailed Waltz on his one attempt to trail him to the mine. Julia and Reiney seemed to be trying to find a TRAIL, which would lead them to the mine and cache, but Holmes went right back to where he had trailed Jacob once before. The Peralta/Ludy story was in circulation in Phoenix before Waltz was even dead, odd that no one considered that it was possibly not the same mine.

Please do continue, although it is very unlikely this issue will ever be settled.

Good morning Roy,

Hope you, Beth and the pups are all doing well.

It's hard to believe this conversation has gone this far down the Silver Chief Mine road, from my comment that I didn't believe the Pit Mine was the Silver Chief. Does the size of this mine seem to reflect the written wealth of the Silver Chief. What I mean by that is the tonnage taken from that mine? I believe it was said to be one of the biggest producers in the area.

IMHO, The name of the mine is unimportant. It may very well be the Silver Chief and I sure wouldn't want to argue that point with Jack. I have mentioned before that I believe the mine was a cache for a certain type of ore, likely gold, mined from other mines. Why it was left there is another mystery.

I believe the number of people, their knowledge of mining and the history of the LDM, who believe it could be the LDM is pretty impressive. There are a number of LDM books that have been written that include write ups on this mine. There must be some suspicion attached to it.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Old]

Here’s why I’m having so much trouble with accepting this is the Silver Chief site. The distances don’t match. Couple that with assertions the reopening and extractions photographed from this site occurred in the late 70’s, early 80’s time frame.

The stores just don’t match the evidence. I don’t doubt that all those stores have elements of truth and involve mines in the area. But, I just don’t think they involve only one hole in the ground and that hole is the same one pictured in the DL photos.

Look at this one photo. (Forgive me, credits and gratitude to the one who owes it)



Does this look like 1890-1920s mine shoring? Or; even more unlikely, 1970/1980’s re-exploration protection? To me, that’s a resounding NO. The mining activity of the Silver Chief area and timeframe circa 1890 wasn't as primitive as that. It wasn't rat hole mining of decades, if not centuries, prior.

To accommodate the Silver Chief, Beulah G, etc. mines, shoring of milled lumber would have been available from the Silver King mine area, if not the Millsite Canyon mill close by.

That’s not milled timber pictured. That’s raw natural logs that haven’t seen a saw or a planer.

As Joe so well explained, would you expect the Silver Chief with its bio of wealth and plenty to look like this? I don’t think so.

Juxtapose that with the aluminum ladders (extension and flat), spray paint cans, tools, current day hard hats, drywall compound buckets, retractable tape measure, winching, and the new trenching ALL covered in camouflage netting. Does that make sense to you How much did those ladders alone cost? You just walk off and leave them? I don’t think so. They alone have more value than we are lead to believe was discovered in the re-exploration of this site. I'm just not buying it.

If that was a known, approved, pre Wilderness venture, SOMEBODY would have come back at least for the ladders.

If it was a known, approved re-exploration that found nothing of value, why do you need camouflage spray painting and netting? Why carry all that extra unnecessary equipment?

The melding of the stories of THIS site with probably true re-exploration of turn of the century silver claims just has an aura to it. And; not in a good way.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Here’s why I’m having so much trouble with accepting this is the Silver Chief site. The distances don’t match. Couple that with assertions the reopening and extractions photographed from this site occurred in the late 70’s, early 80’s time frame.

The stores just don’t match the evidence. I don’t doubt that all those stores have elements of truth and involve mines in the area. But, I just don’t think they involve only one hole in the ground and that hole is the same one pictured in the DL photos.

Look at this one photo. (Forgive me, credits and gratitude to the one who owes it)

View attachment 1321273

Does this look like 1890-1920s mine shoring? Or; even more unlikely, 1970/1980’s re-exploration protection? To me, that’s a resounding NO. The mining activity of the Silver Chief area and timeframe circa 1890 wasn't as primitive as that. It wasn't rat hole mining of decades, if not centuries, prior.

To accommodate the Silver Chief, Beulah G, etc. mines, shoring of milled lumber would have been available from the Silver King mine area, if not the Millsite Canyon mill close by.

That’s not milled timber pictured. That’s raw natural logs that haven’t seen a saw or a planer.

As Joe so well explained, would you expect the Silver Chief with its bio of wealth and plenty to look like this? I don’t think so.

Juxtapose that with the aluminum ladders (extension and flat), spray paint cans, tools, current day hard hats, drywall compound buckets, retractable tape measure, winching, and the new trenching ALL covered in camouflage netting. Does that make sense to you How much did those ladders alone cost? You just walk off and leave them? I don’t think so. They alone have more value than we are lead to believe was discovered in the re-exploration of this site. I'm just not buying it.

If that was a known, approved, pre Wilderness venture, SOMEBODY would have come back at least for the ladders.

If it was a known, approved re-exploration that found nothing of value, why do you need camouflage spray painting and netting? Why carry all that extra unnecessary equipment?

The melding of the stories of THIS site with probably true re-exploration of turn of the century silver claims just has an aura to it. And; not in a good way.

Hello Old,

In my posts I say I believe the Pit Mine and Silver Chief are one and the same based on what Jack Carlson researched and concluded. Maybe Jack got it wrong but I don't think so. But the question here isn't is the Pit Mine the Silver Chief ?, the question is , is the Pit Mine the LDM? So if it is or isn't the Silver Chief that is really just a side issue.

I like the photo you posted of the mine interior but you didn't specify, what mine it is, who took the photo or when it was taken. Those would be three critical things everyone would need to know. I was in the Pit Mine before it was covered and I have to say some of the photos attributed to the Pit Mine that have appeared over the years on various websites, forums and other places were not of the Pit Mine.

One of the things that struck me when I visited the Pit Mine (on both occasions) was the tremendous amount of junk, broken equipment, rubbish and trash that was scattered all over the site inside and out. Whoever left the site in this condition has no regard for the outdoors and if this occurred after the Wilderness of 1984 the people who did it are criminals at the very least. That is one reason (I hope) the despicable trashing of the site occurred in the 1979-1980 time period before the site became wilderness. That still would be bad enough but pre-wilderness some people did not have the same regard for the outdoors and historic sites.

If the stories that have been told about mining the Pit Mine in the 1997-1999 time period are true, it's a condemnation of not only the illegal removal of minerals from the Wilderness but the trashing of the Wilderness and historic site.

Best to you as always,

Matthew

 

[Old]

Matthew,

I didn't take the photo but I have spoken with the man that did. Its from a series of photo all taken together as a group and stated to me to be of the Pit Mine. I believe it to be true. If this one was not authentic, the person I spoke with had ample opportunity to deny it. We are not close confidents as this person has never met me and is justifiably leery of me, a perfect stranger. I've not earned my strips, so to speak.

You, on the other hand, I believe are a known quantity to him and perhaps; conversation between you two would be in order. Earlier in this thread you said you had not spoken to him on the subject but would believe him if you heard it from him (paraphrased). I'll leave it at that.

We see eye to eye on the consequences of what happened. I believe, we have more in common than separates us. We just "get there" from different directions.

 

[azdave35]

Here’s why I’m having so much trouble with accepting this is the Silver Chief site. The distances don’t match. Couple that with assertions the reopening and extractions photographed from this site occurred in the late 70’s, early 80’s time frame.

The stores just don’t match the evidence. I don’t doubt that all those stores have elements of truth and involve mines in the area. But, I just don’t think they involve only one hole in the ground and that hole is the same one pictured in the DL photos.

Look at this one photo. (Forgive me, credits and gratitude to the one who owes it)

View attachment 1321273

Does this look like 1890-1920s mine shoring? Or; even more unlikely, 1970/1980’s re-exploration protection? To me, that’s a resounding NO. The mining activity of the Silver Chief area and timeframe circa 1890 wasn't as primitive as that. It wasn't rat hole mining of decades, if not centuries, prior.

To accommodate the Silver Chief, Beulah G, etc. mines, shoring of milled lumber would have been available from the Silver King mine area, if not the Millsite Canyon mill close by.

That’s not milled timber pictured. That’s raw natural logs that haven’t seen a saw or a planer.

As Joe so well explained, would you expect the Silver Chief with its bio of wealth and plenty to look like this? I don’t think so.

Juxtapose that with the aluminum ladders (extension and flat), spray paint cans, tools, current day hard hats, drywall compound buckets, retractable tape measure, winching, and the new trenching ALL covered in camouflage netting. Does that make sense to you How much did those ladders alone cost? You just walk off and leave them? I don’t think so. They alone have more value than we are lead to believe was discovered in the re-exploration of this site. I'm just not buying it.

If that was a known, approved, pre Wilderness venture, SOMEBODY would have come back at least for the ladders.

If it was a known, approved re-exploration that found nothing of value, why do you need camouflage spray painting and netting? Why carry all that extra unnecessary equipment?

The melding of the stories of THIS site with probably true re-exploration of turn of the century silver claims just has an aura to it. And; not in a good way.

old:
as i said in an earlier post...that mine has been worked by many different people over the last 200 years (and maybe even 300)....every party that worked it did it different...the first group that worked it were more than likely spanish or mexican......and if i remember correctly there are two different types of shoring in the tunnel...the older logs that are in your pic... and further in the tunnel the shoring is more like milled lumber...the older timber look to be ironwood logs and could be a couple hundred years old ..as far as the trash goes..i dont think you will be able to date the activity by the trash at the site.. it could have been left there by anyone..maybe even alot of different people over the years...i've been to alot of mines and there is always alot of trash left by different people at different times...i doubt if the trash at the pit mine was all left at the same time by the same person,,there are alot of littering pigs in arizona...lol...if we knew what you were trying to figure out maybe we could help you

 

[Old]

Thanks Dave,

The reason I'm fixated on the twine and the slip joint style piping is because they are integral to the mining activity and not just what could be random hiker trash.

The twine is holding the ladder and the piping to the cap frame and the piping is either operating as a air supply or pumping system. More likely air. Why they are important is because (I believe) they are date sensitive and can be established as post Wilderness Act items. Of course, if Matthew makes the contact referenced above I believe we can put that disagreement behind us.

I took it, perhaps incorrectly, that Matthew was suggesting that all of this was quite natural pre Wilderness activity. Nothing to see here, just move along. I don't think that's the case. I think it was, and is, a big deal.

Other than all of us getting on the same page, (if that's possible), I don't have a dog in the fight.

As to whether or not this is the Silver Chief location, its just an interesting debate. It matters little. What might matter is some people strongly want us to believe it is ........for reasons that escape me.

Whether or not its "the" LDM? Heck, if I know. I've said my piece on that. I think it was "one" of Jake's mines but not the one he last worked. But that's just a WAG.

 

[azdave35]

Thanks Dave,

The reason I'm fixated on the twine and the slip joint style piping is because they are integral to the mining activity and not just what could be random hiker trash.

The twine is holding the ladder and the piping to the cap frame and the piping is either operating as a air supply or pumping system. More likely air. Why they are important is because (I believe) they are date sensitive and can be established as post Wilderness Act items. Of course, if Matthew makes the contact referenced above I believe we can put that disagreement behind us.

I took it, perhaps incorrectly, that Matthew was suggesting that all of this was quite natural pre Wilderness activity. Nothing to see here, just move along. I don't think that's the case. I think it was, and is, a big deal.

Other than all of us getting on the same page, (if that's possible), I don't have a dog in the fight.

As to whether or not this is the Silver Chief location, its just an interesting debate. It matters little. What might matter is some people strongly want us to believe it is ........for reasons that escape me.

Whether or not its "the" LDM? Heck, if I know. I've said my piece on that. I think it was "one" of Jake's mines but not the one he last worked. But that's just a WAG.

i'm not sure why you are interested in pre or post wilderness but i'll try to answer at least one of your questions...you seem to be bothered by the mine workers leaving expensive equipment at the site when they were done...this happens way more that you think..i have a friend that used to be under contract with the blm to clean up abandoned mines...when the mine closes and the mine owners give up on it they very rarely take the equipment with them..sometimes it is just the cost factor...it would be too much money to move the equipment...first thing you have to realize is these miners may have been at a mine site for years and they can accumulate alot of stuff and drag it to the mine and when they are done they simply don't have a place to store it..or they are working in a hard to reach place with no roads to it..why beat your brains out hauling a ladder and a winch off a mountain when you don't need it anymore?.....when you first find a mine you have plenty of ambition to haul things in but when your done you really dont care about the equipment anymore.....10 years ago i could have taken you to a few dozen mines around here that was loaded down with old equipment the past owners didn't want to haul off...i'm not talking junk either..i'm talking about crushers...generators...vehicles..lol...but a few years back when scrap metal jumped up to $350 a ton everyone started raiding the old mine sites and hauling the equipment off for scrap ....before that i used to see alot of valuable equipment abandoned at old mines...i was looking at the pic you posted and didnt see any twine..but there is some electrical cord hanging down..probably for lights they had strung in the tunnel..and that pipe was not for pumping air in...bad air isnt too much of a worry in mines in arizona...i've been in a hundred or so and never ran into bad air..other states yes but not too bad here..that pipe was for pumping water out of the mine ..look at the black residue inside the pipe....i've seen other pics of inside that mine and if you had pics taken further in you would see the square timbers..which tells you it was worked at different time frames....also ted cox was in that mine in the 50's and we really dont know what all work he did in it....its going to be difficult to prove anything from long distance...its one of those things where you have to be there and see things in person to make a decision on the age of certain items..and i think that might be impossible now....from what i hear the site has been reclamated..if you have any other questions i'll try to answer them if i can

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Old,

In my posts I say I believe the Pit Mine and Silver Chief are one and the same based on what Jack Carlson researched and concluded. Maybe Jack got it wrong but I don't think so. But the question here isn't is the Pit Mine the Silver Chief ?, the question is , is the Pit Mine the LDM? So if it is or isn't the Silver Chief that is really just a side issue.

I like the photo you posted of the mine interior but you didn't specify, what mine it is, who took the photo or when it was taken. Those would be three critical things everyone would need to know. I was in the Pit Mine before it was covered and I have to say some of the photos attributed to the Pit Mine that have appeared over the years on various websites, forums and other places were not of the Pit Mine.

One of the things that struck me when I visited the Pit Mine (on both occasions) was the tremendous amount of junk, broken equipment, rubbish and trash that was scattered all over the site inside and out. Whoever left the site in this condition has no regard for the outdoors and if this occurred after the Wilderness of 1984 the people who did it are criminals at the very least. That is one reason (I hope) the despicable trashing of the site occurred in the 1979-1980 time period before the site became wilderness. That still would be bad enough but pre-wilderness some people did not have the same regard for the outdoors and historic sites.

If the stories that have been told about mining the Pit Mine in the 1997-1999 time period are true, it's a condemnation of not only the illegal removal of minerals from the Wilderness but the trashing of the Wilderness and historic site.

Best to you as always,

Matthew

Matthew,

Do you recall what year you went into the Pit Mine? All of the pictures I posted were from David Leach, and of the Pit Mine, inside and out. When it was viewed prior to 1997 it was covered. I trust the word of the two men who rode up to the mine at that time. I believe in recent times it has been resealed.

I believe the pictures I posted were taken sometime between 2001-2003. Since I was not there I could, of course, be wrong.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[EarnieP]

"Today's trash is tomorrow's artifacts."

These miners weren't littering, they were providing 'future historical reference material and museum display pieces'.
They should be rewarded for their thoughtful contributions.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

When I first heard of this mine and the possibility it might be the LDM I had to see it for myself. I knew it as the Silver Chief before I ever heard anyone call it the Pit Mine.
The first time I heard anything about this mine I was riding in Ron Feldman's truck with Greg Davis, Ron Lorenz and Clay Worst. I'm not clear what we were doing but it must have been when we took Al Reser's ashes into the Superstitions and scattered them at Aylor's Caballo camp (2000).
I was talking with Feldman about the dig at Rogers Spring and Ron Lorenz says to me, " do you know about the old military trail on the ridge across from the spring and the old mines below"? He called it Waltz's military (cavalry trail) and some called it a horse trail. Then he said he heard Waltz's mine was under that ridge.

I got confused where he was talking about so he got out a pencil and drew a rough map for me. Later Lorenz filled me in on more details and I knew I had to check it out. I don't know where Lorenz got the information, he wouldn't say, I thought maybe from Noble Dwyer or one of the old Dutch Hunters.

I wanted Clay to go in with me but he was busy with his Wasp mine so I got Charlie Waters and Ryne Dos-a-neh from Globe to go. Waters was a hardrock miner with 30 years experience and had been in most of those old mines back in 1979-1980 when the Gold and Silver prices spiked. He had all the equipment to get in and out of an old mine.

This was a while before I heard the mine being called the Pit Mine. I think the "Pit Mine" was known to others either by location or as the Silver Chief as far back as at least 1979. I don't know about it being covered because the first time I saw it, it was wide open. If you came at the mine from the east you might assume it was covered because you wouldn't see it in the brush until you fell into it. But if you came at it from the west there was a clearing on it's west side and you saw the mine as you got close to it.

Matthew

 

[EarnieP]

Veni, Vidi, Vamonos!

 

[Oroblanco]

Good morning Roy,

Hope you, Beth and the pups are all doing well.

It's hard to believe this conversation has gone this far down the Silver Chief Mine road, from my comment that I didn't believe the Pit Mine was the Silver Chief. Does the size of this mine seem to reflect the written wealth of the Silver Chief. What I mean by that is the tonnage taken from that mine? I believe it was said to be one of the biggest producers in the area.

IMHO, The name of the mine is unimportant. It may very well be the Silver Chief and I sure wouldn't want to argue that point with Jack. I have mentioned before that I believe the mine was a cache for a certain type of ore, likely gold, mined from other mines. Why it was left there is another mystery.

I believe the number of people, their knowledge of mining and the history of the LDM, who believe it could be the LDM is pretty impressive. There are a number of LDM books that have been written that include write ups on this mine. There must be some suspicion attached to it.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe, all is well here can't even whine about the weather for a change. I hope all is well with you too.

Have to agree on the name issue, to me it is not a big deal. And you as an old sourdough know very well, that the written location notice on record, is not what the courts will hold to if such a thing became a court case, it is always the monuments on the ground that count. Some old timers would deliberately write in incorrect information on the true location of their mines just to help keep the claim jumpers and dry gulchers off the track.

You mentioned about the Silver Chief being known as the "principal producer" of the district. Do you know how many tons of ore the mine produced? The reason I ask is that in some cases, especially with very rich ore, it does not take so much rock to produce much precious metal. Over the holiday weekend Beth and I went to find and check out two mines that were the biggest producers in that district (here in SD and not the Homestake mine, a different district) so I was expecting to see some pretty impressive diggings, even if some trees may have started to reclaim the site. To my surprise the bigger mine had a trench no more than thirty feet long and at most, ten feet wide. This is still a lot of digging for men working with hand tools, but modern mines have prospect trenches that are nearly as large or in some cases even larger than this. So it may or may not mean that a large amount of rock had to be mined for the Silver Chief to have been the principal producer for the district. Actually I had thought that the Randolph mine was the principal producer of that district, which is why it got tagged with that name, so am curious about the actual production data on the S Chief if you know it, thanks in advance.

I am respectfully in disagreement with those folks whom are convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM, for the reasons previously explained. But then there are many things that I find that I can not agree with some of the best experts on, even with the Custer topic so it is just a personal opinion. The fact that we can find so many of the clues associated with Waltz, really originate with the Peralta/Ludy story indicates that at least we should consider that the two different mine stories have gotten mixed together. Just opinion though!

Don't forget to give Smoky an extra treat for no reason too, as I can't give him one myself and I will owe you even more than I do already.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

This has been a very interesting discussion devoid of the BS that has plagued the other threads lately. I hope that it continues.

 

[cactusjumper]

When I first heard of this mine and the possibility it might be the LDM I had to see it for myself. I knew it as the Silver Chief before I ever heard anyone call it the Pit Mine.
The first time I heard anything about this mine I was riding in Ron Feldman's truck with Greg Davis, Ron Lorenz and Clay Worst. I'm not clear what we were doing but it must have been when we took Al Reser's ashes into the Superstitions and scattered them at Aylor's Caballo camp (2000).
I was talking with Feldman about the dig at Rogers Spring and Ron Lorenz says to me, " do you know about the old military trail on the ridge across from the spring and the old mines below"? He called it Waltz's military (cavalry trail) and some called it a horse trail. Then he said he heard Waltz's mine was under that ridge.

I got confused where he was talking about so he got out a pencil and drew a rough map for me. Later Lorenz filled me in on more details and I knew I had to check it out. I don't know where Lorenz got the information, he wouldn't say, I thought maybe from Noble Dwyer or one of the old Dutch Hunters.

I wanted Clay to go in with me but he was busy with his Wasp mine so I got Charlie Waters and Ryne Dos-a-neh from Globe to go. Waters was a hardrock miner with 30 years experience and had been in most of those old mines back in 1979-1980 when the Gold and Silver prices spiked. He had all the equipment to get in and out of an old mine.

This was a while before I heard the mine being called the Pit Mine. I think the "Pit Mine" was known to others either by location or as the Silver Chief as far back as at least 1979. I don't know about it being covered because the first time I saw it, it was wide open. If you came at the mine from the east you might assume it was covered because you wouldn't see it in the brush until you fell into it. But if you came at it from the west there was a clearing on it's west side and you saw the mine as you got close to it.

Matthew

Matthew,

If you are talking 2000, the mine was open. Prior to 1997 it was sealed. I have the words of two men, at separate times, as well as together. I trust both men as being honest and that counts for a lot.....to me. I believe just about everyone here would take their words as Gospel. I'm not at liberty to reveal either of their names at this time. There may be some here who will believe I am just spinning a yarn to boost my ego, but others will take me at my word and trust my judgment of the people who gave the account to me.

You did not mention what date you first visited the Pit/Silver Chief Mine (?). As I stated, prior to the immediate years preceding 1997, the mine entrance was sealed. The friend who initially provided much of the information and pictures of the mine and area to me, has been to all of the mines on the 1882 map, which was provided to me by Jack San Felice, visited the Silver Chief and stated that the Pit Mine was not the Silver Chief. Having never been there, I can't dispute his word.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,

If you are talking 2000, the mine was open. Prior to 1997 it was sealed. I have the words of two men, at separate times, as well as together. I trust both men as being honest and that counts for a lot.....to me. I believe just about everyone here would take their words as Gospel. I'm not at liberty to reveal either of their names at this time. There may be some here who will believe I am just spinning a yarn to boost my ego, but others will take me at my word and trust my judgment of the people who gave the account to me.

You did not mention what date you first visited the Pit/Silver Chief Mine (?). As I stated, prior to the immediate years preceding 1997, the mine entrance was sealed. The friend who initially provided much of the information and pictures of the mine and area to me, has been to all of the mines on the 1882 map, which was provided to me by Jack San Felice, visited the Silver Chief and stated that the Pit Mine was not the Silver Chief. Having never been there, I can't dispute his word.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

joe...when you say the mine was sealed prior to 1997...did your friends tell you how it was sealed?...did they lay lumber in the entrance and then back fill with dirt?

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

Neither man said how it was sealed or covered. I did mention to one of them that that did lend some credence to the Holmes story, he agreed.

The two of them rode up there with the man who would later open the mine. He showed them the two empty caches and one of them told me he was dying to open the mine.

I didn't press them for further details, and probably never will. The story will have to stand or fall on its own.

Your story of your friends find and subsequent work was as good as any I have seen. Thank you for telling us of their great luck.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

Neither man said how it was sealed or covered. I did mention to one of them that that did lend some credence to the Holmes story, he agreed.

The two of them rode up there with the man who would later open the mine. He showed them the two empty caches and one of them told me he was dying to open the mine.

I didn't press them for further details, and probably never will. The story will have to stand or fall on its own.

Your story of your friends find and subsequent work was as good as any I have seen. Thank you for telling us of their great luck.

Take care,

Joe

thanks joe...the two old timers did well because of their work ethic and their lack of greed...it is the greed that usually does most partnerships in..these guys worked together for many years and never once tried to backstab one another...they could surely teach the younger generation a few things about hard work and loyalty..john was almost 80 when i met him...he was barely over 5 foot tall and probably weighed about 90 lbs ..but he could run a pick , shovel and wheelbarrow all day long and think nothing of it...when they took me up to the claim the first time i had a friend with me...jim asked john to take us on a hike and show us the property..the hill we were on was pretty steep and we were headed to the top...my friend and i looked at each other and figured we would have to carry the old timer up the hill ..that old man took off up that hill like a mountain goat..about 1/3 the way up he stopped and waited for us...when we caught up to him we were huffing and puffing and the old man was not even breathing hard..the rest of the day would prove the same..lol...i asked jim how he met john..he told me years ago they were both placer mining on lynx creek by prescott....jim was carefully digging under boulders and panning the dirt he pulled out....he noticed a tiny older man further downstream from him...he had seen him there a few times..but the little guy wasnt digging under the boulders...he was moving them..lol...jim had to know how the little guy was moving boulders the size of a volkswagen so he introduced himself and they hit it off and worked together every since

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

In 2005 Jack San Felice, Dick Walp and Jack Carlson hiked into the "high ridges on a mountain in the eastern Superstitions". They did visit the Pit Mine, although Jack did tell me, when asked, that he did not go down into the mine. On the other hand, he does draw a picture of the mine with distances and a depiction of the "stope room". Not sure how he was able to draw that picture, having not been inside the mine, but assume someone else must have drawn it for him. Jack provides no photographs of the inside of the mine, but does show a number of exterior views.


While Jack devotes a number of pages to the Pit Mine, he does not suggest it is the Silver Chief. As you have stated that Jack Carlson believes it to be the Silver Chief, it does make you wonder why Jack does not mention that in his latest book. Surely, they must have discussed that possibility.

David Leach, who you have touted as one of the most knowledgeable mining men in the LDM Community, has stated he does not believe the Pit Mine is the Silver Chief. He has been quoted by a friend as making that statement. Perhaps he has changed his mind, as I haven't talked to him in some time.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

In 2005 Jack San Felice, Dick Walp and Jack Carlson hiked into the "high ridges on a mountain in the eastern Superstitions". They did visit the Pit Mine, although Jack did tell me, when asked, that he did not go down into the mine. On the other hand, he does draw a picture of the mine with distances and a depiction of the "stope room". Not sure how he was able to draw that picture, having not been inside the mine, but assume someone else must have drawn it for him. Jack provides no photographs of the inside of the mine, but does show a number of exterior views.


While Jack devotes a number of pages to the Pit Mine, he does not suggest it is the Silver Chief. As you have stated that Jack Carlson believes it to be the Silver Chief, it does make you wonder why Jack does not mention that in his latest book. Surely, they must have discussed that possibility.

David Leach, who you have touted as one of the most knowledgeable mining men in the LDM Community, has stated he does not believe the Pit Mine is the Silver Chief. He has been quoted by a friend as making that statement. Perhaps he has changed his mind, as I haven't talked to him in some time.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

cactusjumper,

I do not doubt anything you have said about the two men who found the "Pit Mine" in the 1997 time period or the man to who they showed the mine or that the mine was covered in 1997. All that predated any knowledge I had about the location. So I'm not in disagreement with what you are relating.
As for the Silver Chief, all I know is that Jack Carlson researched all the mining claims in that area and came up with a template of the mining claims. He laid that template of the mining claims over the topo map of the area and the claim that fell where the "Pit Mine" is located was the Silver Chief. That is Jack's plotting of the location, not mine. I don't know why he would show the location as the Silver Chief on his map and not believe it was the Silver Chief ?
At any rate as I said it is Jack's map not mine, the little I researched of the claims in the Pit Mine area led me to the same conclusion Jack came to. I have no reason for wanting it to be the Silver Chief or not. But do others have a reason to NOT want the Pit Mine to be the Silver Chief ?

One question I asked a couple of times is, if the Pit Mine location is not the Silver Chief, what claim is it ? I've not seen Jack San Felise book or the map in his book so can't make a determination but gather his map and Jack Carlson's map do not coincide. That could be causing a lot of the confusion.

I have not ruled out the possibility that the Pit Mine could be the LDM. I lean toward it isn't but some things about the mine fit the clues quite well.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I do not doubt anything you have said about the two men who found the "Pit Mine" in the 1997 time period or the man to who they showed the mine or that the mine was covered in 1997. All that predated any knowledge I had about the location. So I'm not in disagreement with what you are relating.
As for the Silver Chief, all I know is that Jack Carlson researched all the mining claims in that area and came up with a template of the mining claims. He laid that template of the mining claims over the topo map of the area and the claim that fell where the "Pit Mine" is located was the Silver Chief. That is Jack's plotting of the location, not mine. I don't know why he would show the location as the Silver Chief on his map and not believe it was the Silver Chief ?
At any rate as I said it is Jack's map not mine, the little I researched of the claims in the Pit Mine area led me to the same conclusion Jack came to. I have no reason for wanting it to be the Silver Chief or not. But do others have a reason to NOT want the Pit Mine to be the Silver Chief ?

One question I asked a couple of times is, if the Pit Mine location is not the Silver Chief, what claim is it ? I've not seen Jack San Felise book or the map in his book so can't make a determination but gather his map and Jack Carlson's map do not coincide. That could be causing a lot of the confusion.

I have not ruled out the possibility that the Pit Mine could be the LDM. I lean toward it isn't but some things about the mine fit the clues quite well.

Matthew

Matthew,

Thank you for your reply. For the most part, I have to agree with everything you wrote.

On the other hand, I need to clear up one misconception you have. The two men I have spoken of, together, did not find the Pit Mine and show it to the man who rode up there with them. We are writing about two different events. On this ride, he had asked them to ride up to the mine with him.

From what you had written, I knew you had not been to, or into the mine prior to 2000. I have a pretty good historical handle on this mine, be it the Silver Chief or the Pit Mine. There are a few things I know that are not common knowledge. They will remain that way until my sources have passed on. Chances are, I will go first. I'm sure you understand.

Jack San Felice does not have a map in his book, "LOST EL DORADO OF JACOB WALTZ" showing the location of the Pit Mine, or the Silver Chief.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo