Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

roy said Don't place any bets on that idea. I don't judge things by what someone says, on the other hand rocks do not lie. Do you think that I have not talked to "the right people" Dave?

if you are basing your theory on rocks then you have an education coming...you obviously havent seen some of the gold that came out of that area..which means you haven't talked to the right people...if we both make it to the rendezvous this year maybe we can take a ride ..the people you should talk to dont usually go to the rendezvous

 

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[Rick4570]

one other point i would like to make is about the three day running gun battle between the apaches and the peraltas. that would put their starting point about where the pit mine is maybe a little farther east. they took what gold that they could plus supplies and fought their way to the other mines picking up more of their group as they went along losing more men as they went along until they were dwindled down enough to where they got caught in the open and slughtered. i know sounds like fiction.
Rick

 

[Ponchosportal]

It amazes me how many people out there want YOU to believe the Pit Mine is the LDM.

All hat no cattle.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,


"I have to respectfully disagree with what our mutual friend Cactusjumper posted, as it makes perfect sense for Waltz to have covered up his mine, and ironwood is notoriously rot-resistant. It is also quite difficult to cut, but not impossible either. The amount of 'logs' required is a big question, for we have two very different descriptions of Waltz's mine. One description has it as a huge funnel shaped pit, which would require a LOT of logs, and the other description states it has an opening no larger than a barrel. That would not require many logs to make a platform. In fact you could load all the needed logs on one mule. Your point about the area where desert ironwood is found is a good one too, as it is very frost tender so only grows in certain limited areas. Unfortunately Waltz may well have obtained the logs from some distance away from his mine, and just packed them to it."

While ironwood may be rot resistant, it is very difficult to work with and too heavy for Waltz to work with by himself. Look at where he would have to bring the logs. That alone would be a very high hurdle. I just have a hard time accepting the logistics of the whole thing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Roy,


"I have to respectfully disagree with what our mutual friend Cactusjumper posted, as it makes perfect sense for Waltz to have covered up his mine, and ironwood is notoriously rot-resistant. It is also quite difficult to cut, but not impossible either. The amount of 'logs' required is a big question, for we have two very different descriptions of Waltz's mine. One description has it as a huge funnel shaped pit, which would require a LOT of logs, and the other description states it has an opening no larger than a barrel. That would not require many logs to make a platform. In fact you could load all the needed logs on one mule. Your point about the area where desert ironwood is found is a good one too, as it is very frost tender so only grows in certain limited areas. Unfortunately Waltz may well have obtained the logs from some distance away from his mine, and just packed them to it."

While ironwood may be rot resistant, it is very difficult to work with and too heavy for Waltz to work with by himself. Look at where he would have to bring the logs. That alone would be a very high hurdle. I just have a hard time accepting the logistics of the whole thing.

Take care,

Joe

joe...i'm with you on ironwood...it is very heavy and hard to saw...not to mention it is toxic....they dont call it ironwood for nothing..ask anyone that has tried to sand or cut it

 

[Oroblanco]

roy said Don't place any bets on that idea. I don't judge things by what someone says, on the other hand rocks do not lie. Do you think that I have not talked to "the right people" Dave?

if you are basing your theory on rocks then you have an education coming...you obviously havent seen some of the gold that came out of that area..which means you haven't talked to the right people...if we both make it to the rendezvous this year maybe we can take a ride ..the people you should talk to dont usually go to the rendezvous

Dave you don't know who or whom I have talked to, nor what I know of rocks and geology. I am still learning it, try to learn a bit more as often as I can. But just showing some nice gold ore does not seal any deal for me. That has been tried before. Ask Joe, he had quite a talk with a fellow that claimed he had the LDM on his place and had some gorgeous gold nuggets to show, which unfortunately looked like Alaskan gold rather than Arizona gold.



Rick4570 wrote

one other point i would like to make is about the three day running gun battle between the apaches and the peraltas. that would put their starting point about where the pit mine is maybe a little farther east. they took what gold that they could plus supplies and fought their way to the other mines picking up more of their group as they went along losing more men as they went along until they were dwindled down enough to where they got caught in the open and slughtered. i know sounds like fiction.
Rick

Well it is from a story, not a history book after all. There was evidence of some kind of massacre at massacre field, which is some distance from the Pit mine location, and really no way to prove it is linked. The root of this story may originate in a documented attack on two Peralta brothers NEAR the Superstition mountains in the 1870s, one brother was killed and the other seriously wounded. Not a massacre, but stories get magnified in the re-telling.

Ponchosportal wrote

It amazes me how many people out there want YOU to believe the Pit Mine is the LDM.

All hat no cattle.

Have to agree, would like to see stronger evidence to make the case than what has been presented.

Cactusjumper wrote

While ironwood may be rot resistant, it is very difficult to work with and too heavy for Waltz to work with by himself. Look at where he would have to bring the logs. That alone would be a very high hurdle. I just have a hard time accepting the logistics of the whole thing.

If the LDM were a huge open pit, requiring a huge platform of many logs, then I would agree. However the alternate description has an opening no larger than a barrel. How many logs do you suppose it would take, to make a platform in an opening that size? Not that many, and not that long. Also, logs can be dragged by mules or horses, they do not have to be carried physically. If the opening is only a couple of feet by a couple of feet, we are not talking about a large number of logs nor any great length.

As to the difficult workability of ironwood, having cut some myself I will agree it is very hard wood and very hard to cut. You can cut it with an axe, and ancient Indians were cutting ironwood with nothing but stone tools.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, I have two different carvings in iron wood done by the Seri Indians as a token of our friendship.. One of a hawk, about 18 " tall. the other of a sittig duck scaning the heavens about 12 inches all. Both are of ironwood, and are very heavy. I can immagine that iron wood logs must weigh in excess of 200 lbs, can't find any of that size anymore.., if you could origionally.

I have only seen photos of a few Seri Indian ironwood carvings, really pretty impressive what they can do. I am jealous amigo!

 

[azdave35]

Dave you don't know who or whom I have talked to, nor what I know of rocks and geology. I am still learning it, try to learn a bit more as often as I can. But just showing some nice gold ore does not seal any deal for me. That has been tried before. Ask Joe, he had quite a talk with a fellow that claimed he had the LDM on his place and had some gorgeous gold nuggets to show, which unfortunately looked like Alaskan gold rather than Arizona gold.



Rick4570 wrote


Well it is from a story, not a history book after all. There was evidence of some kind of massacre at massacre field, which is some distance from the Pit mine location, and really no way to prove it is linked. The root of this story may originate in a documented attack on two Peralta brothers NEAR the Superstition mountains in the 1870s, one brother was killed and the other seriously wounded. Not a massacre, but stories get magnified in the re-telling.

Ponchosportal wrote


Have to agree, would like to see stronger evidence to make the case than what has been presented.

Cactusjumper wrote


If the LDM were a huge open pit, requiring a huge platform of many logs, then I would agree. However the alternate description has an opening no larger than a barrel. How many logs do you suppose it would take, to make a platform in an opening that size? Not that many, and not that long. Also, logs can be dragged by mules or horses, they do not have to be carried physically. If the opening is only a couple of feet by a couple of feet, we are not talking about a large number of logs nor any great length.

As to the difficult workability of ironwood, having cut some myself I will agree it is very hard wood and very hard to cut. You can cut it with an axe, and ancient Indians were cutting ironwood with nothing but stone tools.

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roy wrote:
Dave you don't know who or whom I have talked to, nor what I know of rocks and geology. I am still learning it, try to learn a bit more as often as I can. But just showing some nice gold ore does not seal any deal for me. That has been tried before. Ask Joe, he had quite a talk with a fellow that claimed he had the LDM on his place and had some gorgeous gold nuggets to show, which unfortunately looked like Alaskan gold rather than Arizona gold.

roy..i have talked to dozens of guys who thought they had found the ldm...some with outstanding ore...why dont you tell us who you have talked to and we can go from there..i will tell you one thing...if you are getting your geology information from books you are being steered wrong..they all tell you there is no gold in volcanic rock....learn to do your own assay's and test some of these volcanic rocks that all the books say are barren of gold and platinum and you will see what i'm talking about

 

[Oroblanco]

roy wrote:
Dave you don't know who or whom I have talked to, nor what I know of rocks and geology. I am still learning it, try to learn a bit more as often as I can. But just showing some nice gold ore does not seal any deal for me. That has been tried before. Ask Joe, he had quite a talk with a fellow that claimed he had the LDM on his place and had some gorgeous gold nuggets to show, which unfortunately looked like Alaskan gold rather than Arizona gold.

roy..i have talked to dozens of guys who thought they had found the ldm...some with outstanding ore...why dont you tell us who you have talked to and we can go from there..i will tell you one thing...if you are getting your geology information from books you are being steered wrong..they all tell you there is no gold in volcanic rock....learn to do your own assay's and test some of these volcanic rocks that all the books say are barren of gold and platinum and you will see what i'm talking about

Dave you seem to have a very dim view of books, which is sad. And I do not get all of my information, nor experience, from books. I have seen "cement" ores rich with gold, that expert geologists claim is impossible, yet occurs in nature here. Even gold inside of coal, which all the geology books claim is 100% impossible. (Cambria in Wyoming) Can you do your own assays? I know how to do some simple tests, which will not work on refractory ores but on free milling, will do fine, and now have an assayer I trust. What makes you so convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM?

 

[azdave35]

Dave you seem to have a very dim view of books, which is sad. And I do not get all of my information, nor experience, from books. I have seen "cement" ores rich with gold, that expert geologists claim is impossible, yet occurs in nature here. Even gold inside of coal, which all the geology books claim is 100% impossible. (Cambria in Wyoming) Can you do your own assays? I know how to do some simple tests, which will not work on refractory ores but on free milling, will do fine, and now have an assayer I trust. What makes you so convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM?

roy..i have been doing assay's for years...i also learned from an old timer to do scorification (or lead fusion) assay's...flux assay's are fine if you want to go to the trouble of working up a flux that works on your ore ..like you said a standard assay flux will work on most free milling quartz ore but on complex ores you have to find the right flux and it is trial and error...lead fusion assay works on almost any ore..no flux needed...if you want to get into assaying cheap...order charles butler's torch assay course...i think its is only a couple hundred bucks..you will learn more from him than you could learn in a lifetime...using his method and his flux you can assay any ore and have the results in 10 minutes...the only ores you will have trouble with using his method are copper sulfide ores...still doable you just have to scorify twice...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy, I'll see if I can post a picture of them

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Az, got to the Dead Horse mine data on Rebual. One of the richest gold mines in the world, and on an active
volcano. xz They had to drill horizontal hole s to pump in sea water in order to cool off the rocks sufficiently to handle.

 

[Not Peralta]

Az, got to the Dead Horse mine data on Rebual. One of the richest gold mines in the world, and on an active
volcano. xz They had to drill horizontal hole s to pump in sea water in order to cool off the rocks sufficiently to handle.

Amigo, I would give you more likes, but, Ditto on this,NP

 

[azdave35]

Az, got to the Dead Horse mine data on Rebual. One of the richest gold mines in the world, and on an active
volcano. xz They had to drill horizontal hole s to pump in sea water in order to cool off the rocks sufficiently to handle.

real..where is the dead horse mine located?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

au Rabaull , New Guinea The story was one posted in here by Crow or Kanacki, Try the TN search

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy, I'll see if I can post a picture of them

Thanks I would appreciate that - would sooner see them in person but can't seem to talk you into a visit north, and can't get the post office to let Beth leave except for a very short time each year. So photos would be great, until we can arrange things some other way!

 

[Azquester]

This is an example of the view from both sides of Weavers Needle from the position of the Map Waltz drew on his death bed. One side is from near Willow Springs SW of the Needle and the other from the Pit mine location NE.

As you can see if you line it up they both could be a match from in front of his lost mine.


View attachment 1329632 View attachment 1329633 View attachment 1329634

What do you think?

 

[markmar]

Nope , not today .

The Waltz sketch view is not from infront of his mine , but from a specific point about half mile before his mine . Is only a point to recognize if you are on the right path . From this point exist another clues to reach the mine . One of these clues is : " Go up a steep arroyo which seems to run right into the shadows of overhanging cliffs , but instead ends finally in a miniature hidden valley . The gold shaft is in this valley " .

 

[Ponteach]

nice try Bill
could be, you said it all! one day you will be fed up for trying to find waltz mine, then you will think about a frenchy... that was here,
Marius is not totally wrong, about 50% good,

nice work...

 

[Azquester]

Nope , not today .

The Waltz sketch view is not from infront of his mine , but from a specific point about half mile before his mine . Is only a point to recognize if you are on the right path . From this point exist another clues to reach the mine . One of these clues is : " Go up a steep arroyo which seems to run right into the shadows of overhanging cliffs , but insted ends finally in a miniature hidden valley . The gold shaft is in this valley " .

I never said how far in front.

You're right though it's on the way to the mine. In my book you stand more of chance going from the Pit Mine location because of all the way it looks there may be a real hidden valley in those jagged peaks. The Willow spring way is easier, that's a given. Its funny how GE in the first photo has it down, but, the second direction it won't do it on GE. Good thing I had so many photo's of the Pit's surrounding ranges in my collection of recent activities!

If going through Willow Springs was the true direction which makes more sense from where those in the beginning looked.

I would dare say Waltz's hidden canyon is more like a small hidden ditch in the bushes. But no signs of micro-gold have ever been found in the Pit Mine area according to Matthew.