Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[Ditlihi]

True...

I'd Love Facts..But right now I think we will have to be happy with Our Own Little CIVIL Court Jury Vote!! lol

As you wish, so shall it be.

Good luck with that, Adios!

 

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[ECS]

Nah, JOHN Frank Dalton. "Google" J. Frank Dalton.

THE J Frank Dalton PAPERS:
A Guide to the J. Frank Dalton Papers, 1926-1978
NOTE: in the 1940's he claimed to be US Marshall Frank Dalton, brother of the Dalton gang, but after moving to Lawton, Oklahoma he claimed he was Jesse W James.

 

[Kace]

Just BRIEFLY on JLC; COULD he had been a Yank "spy" (with a Union Record), pretending to be JJ...? Having "family members" writing to him "at that time", so they ALL could discredit JJ/CSA/KGC...? AND! TODAY, we have "proof" that JLC was JJ! HA! BACK to DALTON! Gonna be INTERESTING![/QUOTE

I don't know Reb.

It looks to me like the Galvanized Yankees Dit referred to were mostly from the North and East. It didn't list any from MO, or TX... Not finding Anything Other Than Tracing Him From MO, and TX. National Archives, Rolls, Census etc.

Am I missing something on the G Y Dit?

I'm going to post some Docs on Courtney. Probably have to enlarge the one anyway. Enlisted 3-1862 in MO----9-1865 Discharge Date for Union as Bugler in Cavalry... Blevins, TX. No Injuries.

These could of been posted somewhere before, I don't know. I got them from the National Archives.

Census does trace and confirm him to date of death. I cannot find the darn link to JWJ!!! I'm going to keep looking into it.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Number 4 is JLC

 

[Kace]

View attachment 1498812



View attachment 1498813





First Pic of Zerelda James Samuels from JJ Jr's Book

Second Pic is the reversed EBay Photo Frank James Wedding Photo ECS posted. ZJS is 3rd from Left in Reversed Pic. You can see where her arm is missing.

 

[Texas Jay]

Hi Rebel. Yes, Jesse (Dalton) had a missing tip of one of his index fingers. Dalton aka Jesse W. James told a writer, I believe it was Henry J. Walker in his book Jesse James The Outlaw, that contrary to one of many traditionalist myths about him (that he had shot a finger off during the War, that he had actually lost part of his index finger when he was a boy and got into a fight with another boy over a girl at a dance. The other boy bit that part of his finger off in the fight. I highly recommend Walker's book to anyone who hasn't read it.
~Texas Jay

Does he have a missing digit...?

 

[Texas Jay]

Jesse aka Dalton could shoot proficiently and rapidly with either hand. All of Quantrill's Guerrillas were trained to do that. Quantrill's and Anderson's men (of whom Jesse was one) carried several revolvers on their bodies when they went into battle.
~Texas Jay

AND! JFD handled his pistol with his RIGHT hand; was Jesse James left-handed...? One of his out-law "pic" has him holding his pistol with his LEFT-Hand...

 

[Texas Jay]

To find the answer to your question, Kace, one needs to study the early history of Jesse when he was about 14 years old, before he joined Bill Anderson's band of Guerrillas at age 15. The Yankees came to the James Farm looking for brother Frank who was already with Quantrill. They tortured young Jesse trying to get the whereabouts of Frank and Quantrill out of him. He refused to tell. I believe that's when they burned his feet and tied a rope around his neck. What is well-documented is that on that same occasion, they strung Jesse's stepfather up to hang him and left after no one would give them the desired information. Jesse's mother Zerelda cut the rope holding Mr. Samuel up. The verified photos of young Jesse James that haven't been retouched to cover the scars on his neck and the left cheek clearly show both the rope burn scars and the long scar on his left cheek that's identical to the cheek scar on Dalton's left cheek in old age.
~Texas Jay

By all accounts he was Predominantly Right handed, but could handle a gun with his left hand as well. Ambidextrous so to speak.

Also by all accounts he almost always carried two guns. If I were him I would of carried 4

The documented holsters of JWJ that only had one holster are for a Right Handed person.

Some of the photos were reversed during that time period.

 

[Texas Jay]

No, not according to anything I've read or heard about him.
~Texas Jay

Did Tx Courtney have a missing digit...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, a "pic" of JJ & his brother (FJ) showed JJ with a "stump" of his left middle finger; they were young & wearing black suits...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TJ, you have ANY "pic" of JFD as a young "outlaw"...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Treasure Net has an INTERESTING "discussion" in General Discussion Forum; If John Frank Dalton WAS Jesse James, a CONTRARIAN view on his caches. 2 PAGES!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Hi Rebel. Yes, Jesse (Dalton) had a missing tip of one of his index fingers. Dalton aka Jesse W. James told a writer, I believe it was Henry J. Walker in his book Jesse James The Outlaw, that contrary to one of many traditionalist myths about him (that he had shot a finger off during the War, that he had actually lost part of his index finger when he was a boy and got into a fight with another boy over a girl at a dance. The other boy bit that part of his finger off in the fight. I highly recommend Walker's book to anyone who hasn't read it.
~Texas Jay


View attachment 1498832

Nah, index finger is just damaged, with blood under the nail. NOT a "missing digit". MIDDLE finger is INTACT!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Still, JFD was an interesting "character"; I remember reading the "BLACK BOOK" & the first part about the KGC got me GREATLY interested in JJ & the KGC. Stuff about the Lincoln assassination was a BUMMER; I just wasn't interested!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Jesse aka Dalton could shoot proficiently and rapidly with either hand. All of Quantrill's Guerrillas were trained to do that. Quantrill's and Anderson's men (of whom Jesse was one) carried several revolvers on their bodies when they went into battle.
~Texas Jay

View attachment 1498833

Damaged INDEX finger with blood under the nail, seen here, too...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Nah, index finger is just damaged, with blood under the nail. NOT a "missing digit".

Middle finger is INTACT!

 

[ECS]

Good photos and information on this site:
Jesse James - Historic Missourians - The State Historical Society of Missouri

 

[Kace]

To find the answer to your question, Kace, one needs to study the early history of Jesse when he was about 14 years old, before he joined Bill Anderson's band of Guerrillas at age 15. The Yankees came to the James Farm looking for brother Frank who was already with Quantrill. They tortured young Jesse trying to get the whereabouts of Frank and Quantrill out of him. He refused to tell. I believe that's when they burned his feet and tied a rope around his neck. What is well-documented is that on that same occasion, they strung Jesse's stepfather up to hang him and left after no one would give them the desired information. Jesse's mother Zerelda cut the rope holding Mr. Samuel up. The verified photos of young Jesse James that haven't been retouched to cover the scars on his neck and the left cheek clearly show both the rope burn scars and the long scar on his left cheek that's identical to the cheek scar on Dalton's left cheek in old age.
~Texas Jay

Thanks TJ!

Since you mentioned for me to research young Jesse James I'll let you know where I'm coming from. I've really enjoyed what you've posted to read and the links you've provided! Thanks For Those! I did get a puzzling thought when I read one post stating the James family were Hebrew and didn't Rob or Work on the Saturday Sabbath...because their Mother wouldn't let them...Really? First Time I've Read That One! I didn't know anyone thought they were Jewish! To each his own as my late great grandma used to say!

I have been told, then read to, then researched the Civil War, JWJ, Youngers, Quantrill and other Southern Cause issues since around age 5. For me the interest started first with family stories and because of where I grew up and my father grew up... our ancestors settled there when the MO territories opened and where we still have that land and other surrounding sections of land and generational neighbors. This was a regular topic at school, social gatherings and with my friends/family and always was and still is 'Down Home'...Its been proven to me time and again that there is some truth in All family stories and local lore. My Mothers Paternal side settled around Lexington, MO which again I was in and around a lot hearing stories and lore from that area regarding the CW. Frankly, I'm The Only One Of My Generation and Younger That Is Interested In ANY of It, which is what made me stay on this thread. I'll get to the title subject of this thread soon.

My Dads ancestors First settled Kentucky and Virginia then some migrated to WV and TN then settled in Talladega, Alabama before coming to Missouri. Typical Scots-Irish Western Migration.

I've mentioned a book that I was given by my Grandmother before she passed that she and my Grandfather wanted to make sure I got. It's about the Civil War and Key players or Notable soldiers from MO. I would read that book every time I was at their home before and after supper ..every Sunday. I still have it. It was written by an unknown to most, local native historian. It is factual documented history, as well as details included by first hand witnesses which is noted..I would read this and ask questions...they had me write them down and then when we went down home, they would take me to the locations and/or descendants of the people in the book to answer my questions and go to obscure cemeteries, creeks or 'brainches' (tributaries) roads or trails only known to locals, home places,barns and ruins of both as well as my gGrandmothers and To my g and gg Aunts and Uncles and their siblings,cousins and friends. Grandma passed when I was 34. The week before she unexpectedly passed we made our last trip down home ...until her burial. She just had a strong urge to go down home and see her old stomping grounds...the last stop that day was at my Grandfathers grave where she saw her name on the joint headstone. Who could of thought that within 7 days she would be laying at his side...It wasn't until I was almost 21 that I realized they were leading me up to things that I would come to know later and to not question the validity or sincerity of. When the day came that a favorite uncle started to continue telling and showing me things that I understood why they and my father who passed 7 years before his mother and who I started going hunting with down home at age 4 were so insistent that I knew the legacy and its importance. I had my own place on that land at 31.

I've said this before, but I've Always Had A Difficult, More Like Impossible Time Believing JJ Was Killed In His Own Home. I Still Don't Believe That. Those exhumations proved Nothing. BDD was right about that, but we ALL could of stopped looking there as a definitive answer much earlier because the grave had been opened twice that we know of before 1978. I wanted to be there to see the skull and teeth along with the slug. The slug in the grave was Not damaged in '78. I didn't go to either exhumation with the idea it was going to Prove it was Jesse James...Outlaw.

Im an investigator, researcher and locator by trade. I'm also very determined to find Facts. That's what I get paid for. And if the topic, like this, is something I'm interested in personally I'll Research All Trails. That sure doesn't make me as knowledgeable as some on this subject.

The following is JMHO after following the leads...

I've spent more time than I Ever intended to on J L Courtney. At some point in his life he either knew someone that knew JJ or knew someone that was an associate of a JJ gang member or it was wishful thinking on his or his gGrand Daughters part to be him or related to him. Or he read books on him. JMHO...He is very easy to follow. He didn't change his name. He enlisted in the Union in March of 1862 in MO and Discharched in September of 1865 in TX. He was a Private in the Calvary and a Bugler for the Union. He drew a Union Pension and lived in Texas. Buried in Blevins, TX. I'm still trying to link him to JJ, Outlaw.

I don't believe BDD started out to write books. I think the family stories she was told and She Believed, then repeated to others as fact snowballed and with that came the questions and criticism. No one wants to believe their family lied. That criticism put her on the defense and here we are. Where he lived there are many accounts of buried stash. Is it huge?? Who knows..I'm sure there are many buried valuables from different sources and families there. Is it JJ stuff?? Who knows...

Psychological studies show that in the past, mainly older men, and a few women sometimes look back and find their life boring and to add excitement or get attention claim to be someone else that was infamous and they Mainly Choose Identities that cannot be verified. It's Usually an Outlaw. Maybe those guys were just trying to tell an exciting story to their kids or grandchildren and due to word of mouth it snowballed out of control. Maybe the family really believed Grandpa's tales and ran with them...who knows?

In modern times some people claim to be Special Forces..Seal, Ranger, CIA etc. when in reality, either they were not a veteran at all or didn't think their role in the military was exciting enough to impress anyone. I just recently worked a case of one who is claiming to be a Seal...he wasn't. He is 57. Due to my background search I was contacted by someone in VA wanting to know where this guy is. You can find a list of people that falsely claim to be special forces online. Those are not isolated claims. It became rampant after American Sniper, Seal Team Six, Blackhawk Down etc.

On Tnet alone there are many threads about Jesse James and J. Frank Dalton and thanks to Reb's suggestion I've read some of them. I'm going to try and not rehash all of it only add to what I know about Meremac Caverns, Case Files, Lawsuits, NewspaperAccounts of his names and whereabouts etc. in reference to him.

I've also read other Documented Information on JFD From FBI and LE Reports, Magazine Interviews and Many Stories.

The simple term that is used for people who assume different identities is Imposter (Impostor). In the 1880 census there were over 6,000 Jesse James. It wasn't an uncommon name, but there is only One Jesse Woodson James..Outlaw.

JFD was an imposter from an early age. Not that he changed his name at first, only that he claimed he was the famous lawman John Dalton then Outlaw John Dalton then Frank Dalton. Finally claiming to be J. Frank Dalton. That name encompassed all of his wanna be Daltons.

As far as I can tell and the most Plausible to me,by Census Records he was born and lived in Tennessee. According to those records he was named John Dalton. That's a Very Common name also. He wasn't the Lawman or Outlaw John Dalton...Just John Dalton. He could of very well known the James Family or Been a Relative.

He was caught lying about his claims several times and at several locations and due to the fact he profited from them was legally ordered to stop misrepresenting himself. He didn't stop. Folks he deceived were not happy. He appeared at playhouses and later theaters, people paid to see him and hear his tales and he was given lodging and meals.

I believe the Rope Burn Scar on JFD's neck that NO ONE could attribute to JWJ having was probably caused by being 'Strung Up' but not hanged to death for his deceptions by victims of his lies. I believe the burn scars on his feet were probably caused from being Tarred for his deceptions by victims of his lies. Again, NO ONE can find evidence JWJ had these burn scars.

Oklahoma...1947. After being ordered to stop misrepresenting himself as a Famous Dalton, he decided to be Jesse James..Outlaw. Frank and Zerelda James had already died. JFD was Homeless and Penniless at this point.

Enter; Lester Benton Dill and Son in Law Rudy Truilli the PT Barnum's of Missouri and Owner/GM respectively of MEREMAC CAVERNS, Stanton, MO. Dill had already been marketing that he had located a secret room in the caverns where he found some guns and a strongbox that belonged to the James Gang.

Now with this news of Jesse James being alive in Oklahoma, RT went to Lawton several times, met with JFD and fed him information that was publicly known about JWJ, Outlaw...what a stroke of luck for Meremac, now they had JJ to go with the guns and strongbox discovery! MC etal promised JFD..Fame, Money and a Home to live in if he would appear there as the Real Jesse James. That's like hitting the Trifecta for an Impostor.

A couple of issues came up though...Due to the reward posters and Newspaper Accounts, JJ had a well known missing part of his middle finger, they came up with a story that it wasn't really that much missing, only the tip of his index finger. We know now from verified photos of JWJ that wasn't the case. The scar on JWJ face was another thing to deal with. I believe either he or RT cut his cheek. Older people scar easier and it was a small price to pay.

As we all know information was not as easily accessible as it is today. Dill and Truilli knew this of course and that the Average Joe would only know publicized information. Truilli being as arrogant as he was even went on the Tonight Show and Promised Anyone $10k to Prove JFD wasn't the Real JWJ. Who could argue it....Well, Stella James, JJ's Daughter in Law Could and Did! She took him to court and Won..RT appealed and Lost again. He, both times was ordered to pay her $10k. He Never Did Pay Her. He died in 1972...Meremac Caverns or LBD didn't pay her either. Stella James passed and her estate did not go after the estate of RT or LBD who passed in 1980. They did not care about the money,they just wanted them to Stop Misrepresenting JFD as JWJ.

Stella won the case easily because JFD did not know the name of JWJ half brother who was killed by Pinkerton Agents. He didn't know his brother Frank's Full name and he did not know the name of the Magnificent Stallion that JJ paid $50k for (in today's dollars). Fun Fact; That Horse's Decendants are still the Champion Line they were then. Both Courtney and Dalton claimed that their Mothers were missing part of their arm due to a genetic trait...We all know how Zerelda James Samuels lost her arm. Who could forget all of that? There is more but that's the highlights.

The scar on the left side of JWJ's neck could of come from that same whipping on the James farm when Rueben Samuel was 'Strung Up' but not hanged to death. I can't find an account of what kind of whip was used, was it a Bull Whip, Horse Whip or a Flogging Whip? If he was flogged then there would be more chance of wild connections to JWJ's body. It could Of even opened up his cheek creating the scar. A Bull whip could do this too.

That brings me to the known photos of JWJ and JFD.

Looking at the Inner Ear of Both Men..They Are Not The Same and The Inner Ear Does Not Change With Age. Outer, yes, Inner No. Ears are either attached or not. As we age earlobes do drop and the outer ear becomes larger.
Hairlines do not grow back with age
Both men have similar but different eye spacing
Both men have similar Supraorbital Ridges
JWJ photo shows a slightly turned up tip of his nose, JFD Does Not Have This.

My Opinion is that there is a Strong Possibility they are related, maybe cousins. I don't know that, but there is a resemblance. It's hard to verify someone's full life when they have always been an Imposter and the One Photo I found Of JFD when he was a bit younger is not verified to be him.

I Still Stand By My Belief That Jesse James Was Not Killed In St Joseph, MO.

JFD said the reason he never revealed his true identity of being JJ was because he and the gang had made a pact to not come clean about their true identities until they were 100yrs old....How many men lived to be 100 in the 1800's? How many Outlaws with a bounty on their head lived to be 100yrs old?

I know many people will disagree with me on Courtney and Dalton and that's ok. I'm not so stubborn to not listen to reasonable discussions. I said before that BLIND DNA Testing would be the only way to really prove or disprove all 3 of these men. I still think that.

John Frank Dalton's Headstone in Texas Reads;

JESSE WOODSON JAMES

Nobody Paid The Funeral Bill...

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL! Nobody paid the funeral bill... ROFL. Wiping "tears" from my eyes... YEP! Also read that JJ's family had Jewish tendencies... MORE can be found on Treasure Net KGC Forum... More Proof that J. Frank Dalton was Jesse James; 15 pages will keep y'all busy for while; make LOTS of COFFEE!

 

[Kace]

You can see where it says in handwriting...Loss