Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Rebel - KGC]

They won't let you put a deposit on it for a week at a time?

Kace

NOPE.

 

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[Kace]

NOPE.

What I've done on papers that have to stay somewhere is use a Scanner App that I put on my phone. Or Take pics of pages. Or see if they will let you copy 10-20 pages at a time. Either those options or I guess take notes at the library.

Whatever is easiest for you.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Hi Kace, et.al.. I just saw this thread today. That being said, I would vote against putting a deadline on reply's to a page or chapter of discussion. It would also hamper those like me who come late to the game.
Thanks for the invite to participate. I will lurk for a bit as I have no copy of said book. But I'd guess my input will not amount to much. I have few FACTS. Facts seem to be a problem when talking about much of the lives of the James or Youngers and some of their associates. People can't even agree when and where some of them died. So just for the record, my OPINION is Jessie James died in St. Jo, MO.. I'll also throw in Bloody Bill Anderson died in MO. in 1865. Bill HATED and it's just about impossible to turn that off. There is also no doubt he LIKED killing Yankees or the Dutch. From what I've read that comes from those that served with or under him, he wouldn't have just rode away.
I'll look forward to what TRUTH yall can come up with. I even enjoy reading the wild stories that are out there, just don't expect me to buy em. Good luck.

Glad You're Here Ug! A lot of folks do not have that book so those of us that do will be posting what's in there starting at the beginning and then anyone can research the names, dates and claims. No reason anyone needs to buy it.

This thread is just to go with records and that book only.

Hope all Is Well!

Kace

 

[sdcfia]

SD...I'm happy you are going to participate! Do you have the BB?

This isn't just my project, but starting at the beginning of that book I do feel is necessary to cover everything you mentioned and Everything and Every Character in it.

I'm glad you brought up the metaphorical possibilities of the book... I've heard that before regarding it and after we all go through it from a literal point as published, it would be fun to discuss the possibility it was written as an allegory. I personally believe that No Organization would have Houk around for Anything, but I'd love to hear another side from you and others why that could be the case after the actual claims, people and statements are straightened out from the book as written.

I agree 100% that there's No Way to know who really said what, and I also think that character assessments or attacks on Houk have no place in this thread about the BB as written. Obviously he'll have to be referred to as JJ3 or Lee, whatever is going on in the book at that time.

As far as moderation...I'm not a moderator and I'd like it if nothing happens to make any moderator feel the need to get involved except if they want to participate in the thread...If we start at the beginning, which I'll post the first statements in the prologue today and we all just go with the characters and events that are written in the book and verifying or eliminating them from records and not opinions, this thread 'should' run itself.

There will have to be a time frame like you said for each section of the book that's put up for confirmation or rebuttal.
The book itself backtracks in places and is not always in chronological order.

Does everyone think two days are enough to allow for confirmation or rebuttal on sections by everyone participating and those who might join the thread?

Kace

Yes, I have the book.

I don't believe there should be any sort of time schedule per topic or book chapter. Some things may not draw enough attention to discuss much at all. Others could develop long vital lives of their own, and folks might not wish to quit on them when the clock runs out. Also, some people check TNet daily and might be able to help keep moving the discussion, while others check in much less often and need to keep catching up. Both types might have important things to contribute. I used to be all over KGC lore in years past, but in the last few years, I haven't thought a lot about it and have rarely looked at the TNet threads.

I guess you may as well just plunge ahead and see what happens. Since this was your idea, I guess you're the person who needs to signal a change when the time seems right.

 

[Kace]

Yes, I have the book.

I don't believe there should be any sort of time schedule per topic or book chapter. Some things may not draw enough attention to discuss much at all. Others could develop long vital lives of their own, and folks might not wish to quit on them when the clock runs out. Also, some people check TNet daily and might be able to help keep moving the discussion, while others check in much less often and need to keep catching up. Both types might have important things to contribute. I used to be all over KGC lore in years past, but in the last few years, I haven't thought a lot about it and have rarely looked at the TNet threads.

I guess you may as well just plunge ahead and see what happens. Since this was your idea, I guess you're the person who needs to signal a change when the time seems right.

lol! OK....T-30min before Prologue Begins.

Any requests, statements, questions by anyone....Nows the time.

Anything written in the BB is fine starting with Prologue. Then records. I will start that and then after the prologue everyone can decide together to move it along, but coming back to anything previously posted is fine. Just not jumping ahead.

Questions on what's been posted from the BB already on the thread is fine.

Records are fine, relating to the posts already made.

Opinions are Not fine due to the potential for disagreements and keeping it just about the books claims, names, dates and events.

Let's try and keep it fluid without just lol's and emojis and nothing else.

No time limit on referring back to posts, just use the quote on what is being referenced about from the book or records.

Official Vital Statistic Records from the Robert Sallee and Zerelda Cole James Family are on the first page of this thread for reference.

This isn't just my thread...everyone with the book or access to it is contributing to this and answering questions from those who don't have the BB and everyone with research sites that carry official records is posting too. It'll probably take all winter, but will be fun to do!

I'm glad everyone is showing an interest in it and those that haven't been around for awhile are back! I've missed all of these topics with you guys.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Prologue

Statements: Not Verbatim At All Times To Condense The Paragraphs.

1) Was Jesse WOODSON James born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844 and killed by Ex-Jockey Bob Ford on April 3, 1882 in St Joseph, Missouri or did he die in Granbury Texas on August 15, 1951 at 107yrs old?

2) Was Jesse's 'death' in 1882 a Hoax aided and abetted by Governor Thomas T. Crittenden, once his lawyer and Schoolmate in Kentucky?

3) Is Charlie Bigelow in Jesse James grave in Kearney, MO?

4) Did John Trammell kill Charlie Bigelow's two brothers, Bert and John?

5) Did Kentucky Born Jesse WOODSON James and his older brother, Dr SYLVESTER Franklin (Frank) James the sons of Captain George and Molly Dalton James have two Missouri Born First Cousins.. Jesse ROBERT (Dingus) James and Alexander Franklin James sons of Robert Sallee and Zerelda Cole James?

6) Did Actor Sam Collins stand in for Alexander Franklin James during the trial in Gallatin, MO in 1883?

7) Didn't Brown Eyed Sam Collins stand 2" Taller than the Blue Eyed Frank James who was Acquitted?

That's the first 7 statements.

Kace

 

[franklin]

Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Prologue

Statements: Not Verbatim At All Times To Condense The Paragraphs.

Was Jesse WOODSON James born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844 and killed by Ex-Jockey Bob Ford on April 3, 1882 in St Joseph, Missouri or did he die in Granbury Texas on August 15, 1951 at 107yrs old?

Was Jesse's 'death' in 1882 a Hoax aided and abetted by Governor Thomas T. Crittenden, once his lawyer and Schoolmate in Kentucky?

Is Charlie Bigelow in Jesse James grave in Kearney, MO?

Did John Trammell kill Charlie Bigelow's two brothers, Bert and John?

Did Kentucky Born Jesse WOODSON James and his older brother, Dr SYLVESTER Franklin (Frank) James the sons of Captain George and Molly Dalton James have two Missouri Born First Cousins.. Jesse ROBERT (Dingus) James and Alexander Franklin James sons of Robert Sallee and Zerelda Cole James?

Did Actor Sam Collins stand in for Alexander Franklin James during the trial in Gallatin, MO in 1883?

Didn't Brown Eyed Sam Collins stand 2" Taller than the Blue Eyed Frank James who was Acquitted?

That's the first 7 statements.

Kace

For Statement #1 about Jesse Woodson James being born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844? All I could ever find is that Jesse Woodson James was born

https://screenshots.firefox.com/xXZdiQSlZn82wAUN/www.history.com

Robert Sallee James moved to Liberty, Missouri in 1842. Even if Jesse Woodson James was born on April 17, 1844, he would still have born in Liberty, Missouri. Here is a screenshot of Jesse Woodson James' father to verify:

https://screenshots.firefox.com/WqjcOB6CLXbE207q/the-history-nut-of-missouri.blogspot.com

Does anyone have a copy of the Deed for 245 acres of a farm puchased by Robert Sallee James in Clay County, Missouri?

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Was Jesse WOODSON James born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844 and killed by Ex-Jockey Bob Ford on April 3, 1882 in St Joseph, Missouri or did he die in Granbury Texas on August 15, 1951 at 107yrs old?

In my opinion, I say neither of those scenarios matches what I have come to believe took place. Why? Because there was a bigger picture with a lot more players on the board than previously known to belong to the K.G.C. during Jesse's lifetime. Specifically, there were more alleys of opportunity offered to him that were previously unknown to be available. The idea that he died under another name is very believable to me, but I personally don't think it was ever known to anyone that repeated the fact.

Was his death faked in 1882? I say yes it was faked, but there were many players not mentioned in the book that had the most to do with it. Not to say the Governor wasn't savvy to the plan, but I doubt he was the planner. Jesse was a member of a higher order with a private agenda that you won't find a record of written down anywhere.

I don't believe there ever was a Charly Bigalow period.

September 5, 1847 Jesse Woodson James was born at the James Farm in Kearney, Missouri.

I believe those answers cover All of the first seven for me Kace. I will be very interested to hear what others say.

L.C.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Was Jesse WOODSON James born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844 and killed by Ex-Jockey Bob Ford on April 3, 1882 in St Joseph, Missouri or did he die in Granbury Texas on August 15, 1951 at 107yrs old?

In my opinion, I say neither of those scenarios matches what I have come to believe took place. Why? Because there was a bigger picture with a lot more players on the board than previously known to belong to the K.G.C. during Jesse's lifetime. Specifically, there were more alleys of opportunity offered to him that were previously unknown to be available. The idea that he died under another name is very believable to me, but I personally don't think it was ever known to anyone that repeated the fact.

Was his death faked in 1882? I say yes it was faked, but there were many players not mentioned in the book that had the most to do with it. Not to say the Governor wasn't savvy to the plan, but I doubt he was the planner. Jesse was a member of a higher order with a private agenda that you won't find a record of written down anywhere.

I don't believe there ever was a Charly Bigalow period.

September 5, 1847 Jesse Woodson James was born at the James Farm in Kearney, Missouri.

I believe those answers cover All of the first seven for me Kace. I will be very interested to hear what others say.

L.C.

2 DOB for JJ...? April 17, 1844/September 5, 1847...

 

[Kace]

For Statement #1 about Jesse Woodson James being born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844? All I could ever find is that Jesse Woodson James was born

https://screenshots.firefox.com/xXZdiQSlZn82wAUN/www.history.com

Robert Sallee James moved to Liberty, Missouri in 1842. Even if Jesse Woodson James was born on April 17, 1844, he would still have born in Liberty, Missouri. Here is a screenshot of Jesse Woodson James' father to verify:

https://screenshots.firefox.com/WqjcOB6CLXbE207q/the-history-nut-of-missouri.blogspot.com

Does anyone have a copy of the Deed for 245 acres of a farm puchased by Robert Sallee James in Clay County, Missouri?

I do have a copy somewhere... I believe I first found it by using Asa W. Thomason who RS James bought the unimproved property from in at that time was Centerville, Clay County, Missouri.

Kace

 

[Kace]

2 DOB for JJ...? April 17, 1844/September 5, 1847...

You will have to keep count of the variations of Jesse James names....As well as how many different Jesse James characters there are in this book.

I've Capitalized the different names used in the book So Far of the different Frank and Jesse's And also watch Where in the book, the characters are from.

Jesse WOODSON James
Jesse ROBERT (Dingus) James

ALEXANDER Franklin James
DR. SYLVESTER Franklin James

Kace

 

[Kace]

Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Prologue

Statements: Not Verbatim At All Times To Condense The Paragraphs.

Was Jesse WOODSON James born in Kentucky on April 17, 1844 and killed by Ex-Jockey Bob Ford on April 3, 1882 in St Joseph, Missouri or did he die in Granbury Texas on August 15, 1951 at 107yrs old?

Was Jesse's 'death' in 1882 a Hoax aided and abetted by Governor Thomas T. Crittenden, once his lawyer and Schoolmate in Kentucky?

#2. Governor Thomas T. Crittenden:1832-1909

Kace

 

[Walker Colt]

Here are my two questions for when we get to this part of the book.
1. What is the evidence that shows that the KGC survived after the war as an organization?
2. What is the evidence that Jesse James was a initiated member of the KGC? According to the Rules and Regs he was too young to be a member during the war.

 

[franklin]

Jesse was too young after the War was over. He did not turn 18 until five months after the Civil War ended.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Here are my two questions for when we get to this part of the book.
1. What is the evidence that shows that the KGC survived after the war as an organization?
2. What is the evidence that Jesse James was a initiated member of the KGC? According to the Rules and Regs he was too young to be a member during the war.

This turtle and several other pieces of lead that it has taken us to and the implications that have unfolded are proof of the K.G.C. turning into the O.A.K. and continuing to at least 1896.



The reason why you will not find any proof that Jesse James was Freemason or K.G.C. other than his actions and affiliation with other known members of the societies, is because he was initiated and raised on the spot in a field meeting. There were no records kept of the minutes. The K.G.C. had no records written down or kept in any form after 1861.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Jesse was too young after the War was over. He did not turn 18 until five months after the Civil War ended.

The reality of the time dictated rules and regulations to be followed or made by small groups in the field. At that time there was a Civil War constituting immediate action by those in charge of the field meetings.

L.C.

 

[Kace]

Prologue Statements/Claims...Continued.

8) Implies JWJ could be and was in so many places due to Astrophysical Travel

9) JJ3 says US Marshall Frank Dalton was JWJ's First Cousin

10) JJ3 says Hanging Judge Parker was JWJ's First Cousin

11) JJ3 says of himself... Orvus Lee Howk aka Jesse James lll worked his entire life as a Detective, Bodyguard, Confidant and Executor for his notorious Grandfather Jesse W. James.

12) JJ3 says he passed a Colorado lie detector test With Flying Colors concerning all information and things related to JWJ he has said are true.

13) JJ3 says he is Fettered by Descendants of KGC members who took a Blood Oath.

14) JJ3 says he Bears the Awesome if not Impossible Responsibility of keeping the James Clan satisfied with the settlement of his Granfathers vast estate.

******************

Just as a Side Note for those who do not have access to this book. When Jesse WOODSON James (JWJ) is talked about In The Book...They are Not talking about the Jesse James of Kearney in Clay County, MO.

Kace

 

[Walker Colt]

This turtle and several other pieces of lead that it has taken us to and the implications that have unfolded are proof of the K.G.C. turning into the O.A.K. and continuing to at least 1896.

View attachment 1661260

The reason why you will not find any proof that Jesse James was Freemason or K.G.C. other than his actions and affiliation with other known members of the societies, is because he was initiated and raised on the spot in a field meeting. There were no records kept of the minutes. The K.G.C. had no records written down or kept in any form after 1861.

I'm sure they made masons and KGC at sight during the war. One of my ancestors was initiated in a military lodge that was with the 35th Mississippi Infantry. I found that record at the Grand Lodge of Mississippi. But with no primary source I cannot take serious the claim that Jesse was KGC.

 

[sdcfia]

Prologue Statements/Claims...Continued.

8) Implies JWJ could be and was in so many places due to Astrophysical Travel

Kace

8) I've always found these claims to be very unusual. Why were JJ's alleged second sight, astral traveling and alchemy activities brought forth in the BB? Are they just embellishments, using poetic license, sensationalism, exaggeration, etc, to bolster the legends and mystery surrounding JJ? Are they some sort of camouflaged reference to JJ's supposed Masonic activities? Are they some sort of a tongue-in-cheek outrageous joke? Or, are the anecdotes recalling JJ's "powers" supposed to be a real deal, taken seriously?

JJ's alleged mystical powers were claimed to have been taught to him early in life by one "Mother Rebecca", a black African. I remember searching years ago for any information available on the alleged black sorceress, but turned up nothing. Have any folks who have spent a lot of time on the genealogy websites found a reference to this woman? Mother Rebecca was black, and so were numerous other men in JJ's inner circle, as described later in the BB. I find this very interesting and have information on one of JJ's men - John Trammell - that I can relate later.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

When was the BB released to the public...? Was such MYSTICISM a "trend" for the "general public" then...? Trends of "the times" MAY have "influenced" the writing styles of such authors... dunno.