Jesuit Treasure - Putting It All Together

[audigger53]

In the "New World" They didn't have any real notice of the Spanish Army coming for them until it happened. The little warning that they did have was from Indian runners going up the main trail of the missions. The Indians would not have revolted and killed the priests at Sanoyita if they knew the Army was coming before hand. In the 50's north of Tamacacori a pile of bars, mainly gold with copper and silver mix, was found just piled there. That begs the question of where did they come from? What Missions were further North? The mine with the Iron Door North of Tucson? Another mission that has not been found? I know of one mission North of Mt. Lemon, that still has not been discovered. If Tumacacori was not actually on the West side of the river that might explain the Rancher on the East side of the river that had his "Artifacts" confiscated back in the late 50's. He never told where the gold items came from.

 

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[Backwoodsbob]

Did the rancher ever get his stuff back? Who confiscated them?

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[Oroblanco]

Not to pick a bone with anyone over it, but the 1767 expulsion of the Jesuits did not play out like a modern 'sting' operation, out on the frontiers where the most remote missions were located as in Arizona, Sonora etc. The Spanish simply sent word out for the padres to come in, and they did. Plenty of time for ordering their loyal Indios to conceal treasures and mines, for the return of the Jesuits. They could not foresee that it would take a century to return and it appears that the Jesuits themselves have lost much, if not most of the necessary information to retrieve the treasures and re-claim the mines.

Just thought that point should be clarified, please do continue.

 

[audigger53]

No and it was the FBI and Treasury Agents.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

When did this happen

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[Backwoodsbob]

Did he get to keep the gold

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Will ROY ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Will ROY ?

Shh! Remember the golden rule of all prospectors, we never talk about any successes of any kind, in dollar values etc. Only the adventures which were part of the deal, not the proceeds!

Side thing here but that 1767 expulsion is quite an interesting episode of history. I highly recommend reading up on it to anyone interested. It is true that the operation did not go like a 'sting' operation on the wild frontier missions, where the Spanish simply sent word for the padres to come in and they did, but in the larger cities like Mexico city and Puebla, it very much WAS a sting type operation, with soldiers surrounding the Jesuit colleges etc. The entailing searches did not turn up much of the treasures that the Spanish authorities were certain that the Jesuits were hoarding, yet even so a little was found, as at one mission in Baja where several hundred ounces of gold was found secreted inside the mission walls. Yet despite all the modern denials of any kind of Jesuit mining or treasure hoarding, if you visit the old Spanish missions at Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac, you can see smelting slag is built right into the mission walls, proving that they were certainly smelting silver (at least) before the mission walls were constructed. At Bac, a fantastic silver altar service was witnessed by a number of visitors, whom all commented on the extremely beautiful and valuable display, estimated at least $40,000 worth of silver (as of 1850s silver prices) and this vanished twice; the last time it was seen was just before the American Civil War, and it has not been seen since. Where is all that silver?

Please do continue, and by the way I had hoped to see some more info posted on the French Jesuits mining and treasure hoarding activities, which while not in the southwest, is certainly worth investigating further Thanks in advance.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I do know the French Jesuit were in my state. The French had a fort in Wetumpka Al. There are a lot of stone work around the area. To the south of the state had a Spanish influence. With them being in close proximity to each other, I wonder if they worked with each other. I believe they did. All the stone work from the western and eastern parts of the country look the same to me. From Minnesota to the panhandle of Florida the same code and symbols only the materials are different . With that information I believe that no matter what country they were from the order was the same. What are your thoughts on this?

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[Oroblanco]

I do know the French Jesuit were in my state. The French had a fort in Wetumpka Al. There are a lot of stone work around the area. To the south of the state had a Spanish influence. With them being in close proximity to each other, I wonder if they worked with each other. I believe they did. All the stone work from the western and eastern parts of the country look the same to me. From Minnesota to the panhandle of Florida the same code and symbols only the materials are different . With that information I believe that no matter what country they were from the order was the same. What are your thoughts on this?

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I tend to agree - that the Jesuits were sworn in loyalty only to their own Order, and not so much to the national interests they were supposedly serving. Hence we find the French Jesuits in Canada, discussing how to make contact with the Spanish southwest, in order to get access to the silver mines! Also this point is something that several of the countries that expelled them, found very repulsive; that the Jesuits were much more loyal to Rome (and their own General) than to France, or Spain, or Portugal etc. Look at their record in Ceylon, India, Japan and China - even when their own Pope ordered them to stop performing the "Chinese rites" as one example, they not only refused to obey but continued long after! When they were expelled from Japan, (for attempting to overthrow the Emperor, and seizing control of the gold and silver mines etc) they immediately set about sneaking back in! In fact on their own web site, they openly boast of their "martyrs" that were executed for getting caught sneaking back into Japan. Their penchant for getting involved in politics, was really the main reason for their expulsions and suppression, the treasures were a secondary element. Just my own opinion, I would like to hear others.

Please do continue;

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Insurrection Roy, ( politics )

 

[audigger53]

LOL no it was all confiscated. Back in the late 50's, we had just moved into the State at that time. My brother read about it in the papers.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I can see why if a person finds something like a stash they don't say nothing. You do all the work of finding it just to have it taking away. I guess I was born in the wrong era. Then I could have some stories like Jose and Roy.

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[audigger53]

LOL Like they say on the Price is Right. "Come on Down!" LOL Pick a story do some research and then put your feet on the ground. Just make sure you plan ahead for all the Oops that you can.

 

[russau]

you guys need to visit the Jesuit Museum in St.Louis , Missouri at the St. Louis University in downtown St.Louis. It was moved there several years ago by the the director of the University (Fr. Bondi ) several years back and definatly bring your digital camara that has macro ability !!!!!!! many many paintings by the Jesuits of where their travels took them. Ask for permission to take pictures first! I took this tour years back when it was in the orginal building that Fr. DeSchmidt was at ,and was buried there in their cemetery. Now its all been dug up and moved to SLU in St.Louis. I believe that if you do go and TAKE pictures of everything ,youll be impressed and have a ton of hidden pointers for you to follow! P.S. If you do plan to go , drop me a PM and ill make plans to go with you !! I haven't been to it since it was moved!

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

you guys need to visit the Jesuit Museum in St.Louis , Missouri at the St. Louis University in downtown St.Louis. It was moved there several years ago by the the director of the University (Fr. Bondi ) several years back and definatly bring your digital camara that has macro ability !!!!!!! many many paintings by the Jesuits of where their travels took them. Ask for permission to take pictures first! I took this tour years back when it was in the orginal building that Fr. DeSchmidt was at ,and was buried there in their cemetery. Now its all been dug up and moved to SLU in St.Louis. I believe that if you do go and TAKE pictures of everything ,youll be impressed and have a ton of hidden pointers for you to follow! P.S. If you do plan to go , drop me a PM and ill make plans to go with you !! I haven't been to it since it was moved!

That would be great to see those paintings and other things. Thanks for posting that info. russau

 

[russau]

Im glad I could I could add to the subject! Plus I want 25% of all the goodies you find !

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

russau, how about the deal I just gave my Grick friend on another post ,-- 5% minus 50% of the expenses

 

[russau]

O.K. you talked me into it!

 

[audigger53]

Oro, remember that they were also "Human" with the Human faults. Even in the past 20-30 years we have learned of abuses that Priests have done with "Altarboys", why then should we be surprised about "hidden mining"? The King of Spain's Edict was for 200 years of "Hidden Mining", IE not paying him his Royal Tithe (10%) of all Silver and 100% of all Gold, "Except for personal Jewelry" , which explains those Gold ropes or chains that are found at the ship wrecks, 20 to 80 LBs worth. As long as they wore them they were "Personal Jewelry ". Break their vows to the Pope? The Popes were political appointments from the 1500's to the Mid 1700's. Kings appointed a lot of the Popes, not the Cardinals. So their loyalty was to the Order first and formost. The mining was done with "Free Labor" for the most part, so even low grade deposits could be worked, let alone high grade deposits.