JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

When I posted the "These bars Should Not Exist" version of the story (in 2007), I had not met the man yet. I hate to tell you this, but his name is NOT Bob.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the Bob that Springfield is referring to is Sonoita Bob.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Feel free to demonstrate any proven instance of Jesuits in the New World using mercury for anything not related to mining or metals.

deducer,

OK.....First prove that they didn't use it as a supposed cure for syphilis, to disinfect wounds or as a wood preservative on mission furniture. As soon as you get done with that assignment, I will think up another task for you.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

A study was done to evaluate the acid bioleaching of metals from a sample of final smelter slag and the recovery of metals from the leach liquors.
Bio and Hydrometallurgy
Bioleaching and recovery of metals from final slag waste of the copper smelting industry

Cal-Chem buys Slag the owners thought was "freight-cost prohibitive"
Copper Slag Recovery | Cal Chem Metals | Cal-Chem Metals

Process for recovering valuable metals from precious metal smelting slag
http://www.google.com/patents/CA2798302A1?cl=en

I have a 5 gallon bucket of ore and the processing plant wanted $5,000.00 up front to assay the sample and to analyse the content for R.E.E. Even with a preliminary report from a small sample of 25% gold.

 

[cactusjumper]

[SIZE=+1]deducer,
______________________________________________________

Around 1640 Jesuit priests introduced Peruvian bark (quinine) to Europe from South America. It was used to cure intermittent fevers, such as malaria.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]It should be taken in the intermissions between the hot stages, in the dose of a grain every hour, an emetic at the commencement of the chill, and a purge of Calomel and Jalap afterwards having been given before commencing with the quinine. (Druett, Rough Medicine, 61)[/SIZE]

Mercury became a popular remedy for a variety of physical and mental ailments during the age of "heroic medicine." It was used by doctors in America throughout the 18th century, and during the revolution, to make patients regurgitate and release their body from "impurities". Benjamin Rush was one particular well-known advocate of mercury in medicine and used calomel to treat sufferers of yellow fever during its outbreak in Philadelphia in 1793. Calomel was given to patients as a purgative or cathartic until they began to salivate and was often administered to patients in such great quantities that their hair and teeth fell out.[SUP][5][/SUP] Shortly after yellow fever struck Philadelphia, the disease broke out in Jamaica. A war of words erupted in the press concerning the best treatment for yellow fever; bleeding or calomel. Anecdotal evidence indicates calomel was more effective than bleeding.[SUP][6]
__________________________________________________
[/SUP]

Found with a quick Internet search.

Take care,

Joe
​

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

[Lewis & Clark's Medical Chest

Assafoetic- ill smelling Indian spice, used as a carminitive to lessen abdominal distention, and cramping. There is no documental proof that this was used on the expedition
Balasm Copaiba- an oily sunstance from a South American tree that was used as a carminative. diuretic, or orally as a treatment for ghorrhea
Balsamum traumaticum- contains benzion, aloes, and balsamto treat respiratory problems such as inflamation of the nose, throat, and bronchi
Calamine Oitment- mixtrure of zinc oxide and ferric oxide to treat skin irritation
Calomel- mercury chloride used as a purgative; main ingredient of Dr. Rush's pills
Cream of Tartar- derived from grape juice and put into wine casks with yeast to produce a purgative
Dr. Rush's Pills- a combination of calomel and jalap to be used as a purgative; high amount of mercury; Lewis brought 50 dozen
Epispastric Ointment- used to produce blisters to withdraw the fluid from deeper tissue
Glauber's Salts- a saline cathartic to produce purging
Gum Camphor- stimulant and diaphoretic; also used on skins to act as a counterirritant and used for aches and pains
Ipecacuan- used sparingly on the expedition, used to make the taker vomit
Jalap- a drastic cathartic used in Dr. Rush's pills
Laudanum- used to prevent diarrhea
Magnesia- a cathartic magnesium salt
Mercury Ointment- used as a treatment for syphilis; used until the patient showed signs of mercury poisoning
Nutmeg, cloves, and cinnamon- used to flavor the bad tasting medicine
Peruvian bark- a tonic used for fever, snakebites, abdominal pain, and many other problems; most used medicine on the trip
Rhubarb- powdered cathartic and purgative
Sugar of Lead- eye wash solution
Tartar emetic- an antimony-potassium compound, which produced vomiting
Tragacanth- non-greasy lubricant used in lotions and emollients
Turkish opium- used to relieve pain and lessen nervous excitability; mixed with alcohol to make laudanum
White vitriol- zinc sulfate used with lead acetate in captain's eye wash; only four ounces carried on expedition
Wine and Whiskey (30 gallons)- "medicinal" by Dr. Rush's perscripition; ran out on July 4, 1805]

Mercury was fairly common in medical uses. It was sometimes used with Balasm Copaiba.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

I hate to keep questioning your arguments, but $160/ton slag is not a worthwhile economic venture, unless of course you're burning money in a tax shelter or some such scam. I was going to research the current costs for this sort of thing, but you can do it if you want to prove me wrong.

1. Equipment & labor to remove in-place slag pile and transfer to, let's say, 20-ton haul trucks. (Granted, no free Indian labor.)
2. Haulage fees, roundtrip, to nearest smelter. This alone may kill the idea, depending on distance.
3. Smelter fees. They will charge you to crush and concentrate the slag, then smelt the concentrates. For small batch recoveries, they'll likely take half of the value.

Your other option is to bring in your own concentrating plant to the slag pile site before haulage. Equipment, labor, power. $$.

If you're at $1,000/ton, it might be worth it.

Very nicely reasoned out, however it appears you are approaching the question from a modern accounting perspective. For one thing, we do not know what was paid for the slag. They may have only received a dollar a ton, or even less, which in the 1800s would have been pretty good money as wages were often a dollar a day.

Next, those "hauling" costs - a person whom owned a team or a yoke of oxen and a wagon, has no 'hauling costs' as his motive power runs on grass basically; a few days work for some rather easy money, and not a lot of costs involved especially if their own labor were counted as free, which probably is the case. There were quite a few smelters operating in Arizona in the 1800s, it is not stated which one the slag was hauled to, but it is quite possible that it went no further than Tucson. There were smelters operating in the Santa Ritas which are not very far at all. The freight costs might have entered the picture if hauled by train or a hired team and wagon, but this is not what was stated, it was local fellows who PROBABLY used their own equipment and horses or mules, oxen etc.

Also, your reasoning appears to not take into account when someone has need of money, and money is offered for collecting some substance. I have helped friends gather and haul scrap iron, which brought considerably less money than $160 per ton, and this had also to cover the costs of fuel, labor being 'free' but they needed money so we did it. I have seen people walking the highways gathering cans and deposit bottles for cash, which many people would not do, but they get money for it. No reasoned argument based on modern economics of a commercial type operation would have mattered very much, for the report we have as the version of what happened. They were local fellows, simply hauled the slag to a smelter for cash. It supposedly had eight ounces of silver per ton - perhaps they got paid for the full value of the silver, perhaps only a fraction of that. I was not there to say for sure, but the slag heaps are sure gone. I have not seen anyone offer any explanation nor evidence contrary to what was reported.

Cactusjumper wrote

deducer,

OK.....First prove that they didn't use it as a supposed cure for syphilis, to disinfect wounds or as a wood preservative on mission furniture. As soon as you get done with that assignment, I will think up another task for you.

Hmm - father Och mentioned using his mercury to prove up gold he saw in some local pottery, I do not recall seeing any mention of any other use for mercury being done by any Jesuit source, including for treating syphilis, preserving wood, nor treating wounds. Can you cite any such reference?

Side thingie here but Calomel was a mercury compound, not straight metal;

Calomel was taken internally and used as a laxative and disinfectant, as well as in the treatment of syphilis, until the early 20th century.

<from Wiki>

This sounds like it was Calomel, not liquid mercury, which was used as a medicine for syphilis, laxative and disinfectant. Liquid mercury would be purchased through Royal govt sources (legally) while Calomel should have been available through drug suppliers. Mercury ointment likewise, would not be liquid mercury metal but a compound.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Roy just said it, and I said it several pages ago:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...suit-treasures-they-real-124.html#post4003705

Father Och (who wrote his own journals) said that he used quicksilver to amalgamate those gold flecks on the plates. He didn't say that he used Calomel or Horn Quicksilver. Calomel and Horn Quicksilver were TYPICALLY in one of three forms; Pill, Powder, or Paste. They would not have been referred to as just "quicksilver". NOWHERE in his journals does Father Och EVER mention using quicksilver, horn quicksilver, or Calomel to treat anything, BUT HE DOES SPECIFICALLY talk about using quicksilver to amalgamate gold flecks in a plate. You are reading things into a statement that were NEVER mentioned by Father Och.

Its' like if I made the statement that "I slapped a baby!" You like me and don't think I would ever do anything like that, so you come to my aid, saying "He must have meant that after delivering a baby, he slapped it's butt to get it crying." Your intentions are well meant, but you put a spin on my words without knowing my thoughts behind them. Same as you are doing with Father Och. Don't read anything into his statements. Take them at face value "I USED SOME QUICKSILVER I CARRY IN A FLASK TO AMALGAMATE THE GOLD FLECKS IN AN INDIAN'S DINNER PLATES." (NOT Calomel or Horn Quicksilver as it was referred to then).

Mike

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"This sounds like it was Calomel, not liquid mercury, which was used as a medicine for syphilis, laxative and disinfectant. Liquid mercury would be purchased through Royal govt sources (legally) while Calomel should have been available through drug suppliers. Mercury ointment likewise, would not be liquid mercury metal but a compound."

Are you saying that "liquid mercury" is not an ingredient used to make Calomel?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Roy just said it, and I said it several pages ago:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...suit-treasures-they-real-124.html#post4003705

Father Och (who wrote his own journals) said that he used quicksilver to amalgamate those gold flecks on the plates. He didn't say that he used Calomel or Horn Quicksilver. Calomel and Horn Quicksilver were TYPICALLY in one of three forms; Pill, Powder, or Paste. They would not have been referred to as just "quicksilver". NOWHERE in his journals does Father Och EVER mention using quicksilver, horn quicksilver, or Calomel to treat anything, BUT HE DOES SPECIFICALLY talk about using quicksilver to amalgamate gold flecks in a plate. You are reading things into a statement that were NEVER mentioned by Father Och.

Its' like if I made the statement that "I slapped a baby!" You like me and don't think I would ever do anything like that, so you come to my aid, saying "He must have meant that after delivering a baby, he slapped it's butt to get it crying." Your intentions are well meant, but you put a spin on my words without knowing my thoughts behind them. Same as you are doing with Father Och. Don't read anything into his statements. Take them at face value "I USED SOME QUICKSILVER I CARRY IN A FLASK TO AMALGAMATE THE GOLD FLECKS IN AN INDIAN'S DINNER PLATES." (NOT Calomel or Horn Quicksilver as it was referred to then).

Mike

Mike

Mike,

"the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

I am not reading anything into Father Och's words. You are reading his not writing something concerning mercury, as evidence that no other uses were made of it in Mexico.

I am only trying to draw attention to the fact that mercury has other uses. It has been stated here that the only use for mercury, in that time, was in mining.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

A study was done to evaluate the acid bioleaching of metals from a sample of final smelter slag and the recovery of metals from the leach liquors.
Bio and Hydrometallurgy
Bioleaching and recovery of metals from final slag waste of the copper smelting industry

Cal-Chem buys Slag the owners thought was "freight-cost prohibitive"
Copper Slag Recovery | Cal Chem Metals | Cal-Chem Metals

Process for recovering valuable metals from precious metal smelting slag
Patent CA2798302A1 - Process for recovering valuable metals from precious metal smelting slag - Google Patents

I have a 5 gallon bucket of ore and the processing plant wanted $5,000.00 up front to assay the sample and to analyse the content for R.E.E. Even with a preliminary report from a small sample of 25% gold.

Thanks for the links, sail. The copper industry is trying all sorts of new technology. One of the new mines in Arizona is mining by drilling large diameter wells and acid leaching a copper-rich solution directly from the shallow fracture zone, then recovering the metal by electrowinning. The ground surface is undisturbed, and the water table below the fracture zone is untouched - sealed from above by impermeable rock. It's similar to the way they get salt brine from that Morton site on the west side of Phoenix. It's a sweet deal - cheap and apparently environmentally safe.

Oro, you're the one who put the discussion in today's terms (Post #1970: "PS as to the value of silver in slag - some people, myself included, would not turn up a nose at hauling some slag to a smelter for easy cash. The price would not have to be that high, for rather simple effort and profit....")

Unfortunately, the best way to recover silver/gold from low-grade copper ore (very similar metal values as your slag assay presented earlier) is by concentrating the metals, recovering the silver through flotation, then scraping the bottoms of the flotation cells where the gold fines settle out. Then you can amalgamate these fines for the gold. This was tricky business, if even possible in those days. It would be costly for small batches - most folks just sell the concentrates to a smelter (if you can find one nowadays). I wonder how they would have done this in those days? Heck, maybe the guys who took the slag weren't after the silver - maybe they were selling it for railroad track ballast or road fill?

 

[sailaway]

Mercury, as we now know, is toxic. Symptoms of mercury poisoning include chest pains, heart and lung problems, coughing, tremors, violent muscle spasms, psychotic reactions, delirium, hallucinations, suicidal tendencies. It's a testament to just how cool a substance Mercury is that people kept trying to cure everything with it for 1,000 years after everybody who ingested it dropped dead.
"Yes my Lord, I'm afraid another member of your court has perished. The autopsy showed it was Silver Liver Syndrome. Not even the gallons of wicked-awesome Mercury we fed him could bring him back to health."
There was a silver lining, though, as it helped to fight the spread of STDs. Mercury was used as a cure for syphilis and to its credit, the "cure" usually resulted in one less person with syphilis in the world.
Does this mean that Father Och was worried about getting syphillis?

 

[cactusjumper]

sailaway,

"Does this mean that Father Och was worried about getting syphillis?"

Maybe. On the other hand, maybe he needed it to treat native women who had been raped by the Spaniards.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

How did Wasserman get into this ?

speaking of that I wonder how many converts contracted that from the Spanish miners and passed it on to ------?


don Jose the one eyed Jack de la Mancha
















p

 

[deducer]

deducer,

OK.....First prove that they didn't use it as a supposed cure for syphilis, to disinfect wounds or as a wood preservative on mission furniture. As soon as you get done with that assignment, I will think up another task for you.

Good luck,

Joe

In other words, you couldn't find a single instance of a Pimeria Alta Jesuit using mercury for anything else than amalgamation.

 

[deducer]

Are you saying that "liquid mercury" is not an ingredient used to make Calomel?

Calomel is a halide mineral, existing in powder produced by precipitation or sublimation, so to say that mercury is an ingredient of calomel is misleading.

Also, for you to try to pass calomel off as something that proves your theory of mercury being used for another purpose than amalgamation is similar to passing sawdust off as lumber just because both come from the same source (trees).

This also requires the assumption that calomel even existed amongst the Jesuits of the New World, of which there is no proof.

Even then, if we suspend disbelief and assume Fr. Och's intention in carrying around a flask of mercury was to turn it into calomel (for which you'd need a laboratory), he would have been much better off carrying around a container of calomel powder. The Spanish authorities would not have had a problem with that.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Deducer beat me to it! Although Mercury is an ingredient of Calomel, Mercury (Hg) and Mercuric Chloride (Calomel= HG2CL2) are two very different things. I do not think that Calomel can even amalgamate gold/silver. Mercurochrome (disinfectant) has Mercury in it, the same way Calomel does. I KNOW you can't amalgamate gold/silver with Mercurochrome.

Like I also keep saying: Och did not say he used Calomel. HE SAID:

It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam...

....and also like I previously said: you keep arguing minuscule things to hide the fact that you can't answer my question without admitting guilt on the part of Father Och! EVEN IF (and that is a BIG IF) EVEN IF Calomel could amalgamate gold, and Father Och had used Calomel to amalgamate that gold in the dinner plates. WHY DID FATHER OCH BREAK HIS VOW OF OBEDIENCE (He disobeyed the Ecclestical Precept that NO PRIEST shall mine or have any knowledge, either direct or indirect, of mining) BY SHOWING HIS KNOWLEDGE OF MINING PRACTICES BY AMALGAMATING THAT GOLD IN THE DINNER PLATES? WHY, JOE, WHY?


Mike
Mike

 

[sailaway]

DEMOGRAPHIC AND SOCIAL CHANGE IN NORTHWESTERN NEW SPAIN:
A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF THE PIMERIA ALTA AND BAJA CALIFORNIA MISSIONS
by ROBERT HOWARD JACKSON
To deal with the unique conditions of the northern frontier of New Spain and the problem of pacifying and colonizing the vast area, the Spanish Crown turned to the Church. Through the Patronato Real the Crown could name priests to positions in the New World, and in essence financed Church activities. Following Las Casas' experiment of peaceful conquest of hostile Indians in Verapaz, Guatamala, mendicant and Jesuit missionaries took up the task of settling, converting and assimilating the Indians living in northern New Spain in villages modeled on Spanish towns.
Newly introduced Euro-Asiatic diseases to which the Indians had no immunities or cures, and literally died by the thousands was one such effect. The net result in many frontier areas was the near extinction of missionized Indians within some 100 - 150 years of the opening of the missions.
The Impact of Syphilis
Syphilis played a role in the process of Indian depopulation in the Pimeria Alta and Baja California; not through direct mortality, but by increasing the susceptibility of an individual to other diseases by weakening him. Furthermore, syphilis may have contributed to infertility among women and increased infant mortality. Transmitted to the fetus through the placenta, syphilis in a congenital form reduced the prospect of survival of infected children. The disease contributed to a general debility among the Indian population, especially in Baja California, and became endemic in the missions. Most of the available data on syphilis comes from Baja California, but there are several references from the Pimeria Alta. A 1774 report from Terrenate presidio gave "Pains from Calico [syphilis]" as the cause of disability of soldier Josef Nevares. The report identified Nevares as a thirty-four year old "coiote" with two years military service, and a native of Santiago, Papasquiaro. In a report written some twenty years later another soldier commented on the impact of syphilis on the Indian population, "The Indian families have diminished [in number]," wrote Altar presidio commander Josef Saenz Rico in 1795, "as much from the Apaches, Seris, and Piatos, as by the morbo qchico [syphilis] which abounds, spreading from fathers to sons.
Pimeria Alta stats:forty-three in 1700 and twenty in 1708.

arizona.openrepository.com/arizona/.../1/azu_td_1319459_sip1_m.pdf

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Are you saying that "liquid mercury" is not an ingredient used to make Calomel?

I never said that; however you are now implying that the reason father Och was packing around a flask of mercury, was for making his own calomel. Considering that his own written words state what he used that mercury for, namely for testing gold, and there is NO MENTION of any other use by him, whom is reaching here?

Springfield wrote

Oro, unfortunately, the best way to recover silver/gold from low-grade copper ore (very similar metal values as your slag assay presented earlier) is by concentrating the metals, recovering the silver through flotation, then scraping the bottoms of the flotation cells where the gold fines settle out. Then you can amalgamate these fines for the gold. This was tricky business, if even possible in those days. It would be costly for small batches - most folks just sell the concentrates to a smelter (if you can find one nowadays). I wonder how they would have done this in those days? Heck, maybe the guys who took the slag weren't after the silver - maybe they were selling it for railroad track ballast or road fill?

Perhaps they sold the slag for ships ballast. I was not there. However once again, you dismiss the written record, which states it was sold for the silver content. Please show me some record that the slag was hauled away for another purpose?

Also, you continue to use modern ideas to approach something which occurred in the 19th century; what did the charcoal cost, for a local smelter in the 1800s? What did it cost to run a water powered air bellows? And, where does it say that the slag was a "small batch" at all? From what I read of the written record, the mounds of slag were impressive, and could well amount to a number of tons, not a "small batch".

Here is a big problem with these attempts to find alternate explanations - they are not supported by any source near to the events. The sources we do have, on the other hand, give a clear and logical explanation. Then there are those pesky silver and gold mines, and not one copper mine mentioned by anyone among the Jesuits, nor the Americans who followed. We have these "legends" originating with the very same Indians whom had been under the padres, and no counter-legend from these sources claiming there were no such silver mines, no smelting, just farming, etc. It is a circumstantial case, but we now have that admittance by a Jesuit whom was operating in Pimeria Alta, namely father Segesser, complaining that he could not work the mines securely and thus raise money easily, along with his mention of being in the "silver mountains" not the "copper mountains". Remember the letter from the martyred padre Saeta, so recently arrived at Caborca, how he would soon be able to pay for the items on his shopping list in silver? Where do you propose he was getting silver? We might note that Saeta did not say silver COIN, nor money, just the word - silver.

So yes, perhaps the slag was removed for some utterly innocent purpose, filling in a hole in a back yard or grading a railroad bed, or who knows what, yet there is NO such source which claims this - rather, the ONLY source with an explanation states what happened to it. And yes perhaps those copper bells being cast, were made from imported copper and donated jewelry, which would hardly produce any slag worth notice, yet we have records of people who saw impressive mounds of slag at several missions. Yes perhaps father Och was packing around liquid mercury, for preserving wood and making medicinal calomel, yet in his own words he tells of what he DID use it for, testing gold! Perhaps none of the missions ever had any hand in mining - yet we know that the Jesuit Order openly owned and operated mines in Mexico, that a bishop even complained of their accumulating of wealth and property. We do not have the opposite kind of proof, that they were dirt-poor, that the Spanish didn't bother to search for any treasure since they knew the padres were so dirt poor and so on.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Oro: Also, you continue to use modern ideas to approach something which occurred in the 19th century; what did the charcoal cost, for a local smelter in the 1800s? What did it cost to run a water powered air bellows? And, where does it say that the slag was a "small batch" at all? From what I read of the written record, the mounds of slag were impressive, and could well amount to a number of tons, not a "small batch".

All right, let's go back to the 1800's then - makes 8-ounce silver slag worth $8/ton. Also makes recovery much more difficult, due to technology of the time? Does the written record make any mention of the slag piles' sizes - even a simple estimate of length, width, depth, etc? As I've stated numerous times, I don't deny the activity - I just haven't seen anything to match its scope to the exaggerated legends.

Oro: Then there are those pesky silver and gold mines, and not one copper mine mentioned by anyone among the Jesuits...

Copper mines don't excite treasure magazine readers either. I guess the copper for those mission bells had to come from copper mines - maybe the ones that produced that slag containing 3% copper?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

A study was done to evaluate the acid bioleaching of metals from a sample of final smelter slag and the recovery of metals from the leach liquors.
Bio and Hydrometallurgy
Bioleaching and recovery of metals from final slag waste of the copper smelting industry

Cal-Chem buys Slag the owners thought was "freight-cost prohibitive"
Copper Slag Recovery | Cal Chem Metals | Cal-Chem Metals

Process for recovering valuable metals from precious metal smelting slag
Patent CA2798302A1 - Process for recovering valuable metals from precious metal smelting slag - Google Patents

I have a 5 gallon bucket of ore and the processing plant wanted $5,000.00 up front to assay the sample and to analyse the content for R.E.E. Even with a preliminary report from a small sample of 25% gold.

Interested in selling that bucket?

25% gold of 5 gallons is over 200 pounds of gold. Add in the host rock and that must be one super strong bucket, not to mention being worth over $4Million (@$1300/troy), or is my calculator broken?

With this kind of worth you can smelt it yourself, take the cream and still sell off the slag. What is the hang up