JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

evening Lamar You posted -->

Isn't the word INNUENDO actually the Italian name for Preparation H?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry , no , it is the rallying cry for Obama's cabinet members

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings amigos,

I must again beg your indulgence for a very long reply, as there have been a number of posts I would like to address.

Ritchie wrote

Indeed Lamar did shift responsibility for any mining activities to the Indians, but in your wildest dreams did you ever imagine the Priests themselves out there digging? It matters NOT who actually dug it up, but who possessed it in he end. All that is needed to bridge the grey area, is for everyone to agree that there was mining done that the Jesuits (Church) profited from, and therefore those profits could have, at one time been buried away somewhere for safekeeping.

Actually no - I have not envisaged the priests doing the actual digging, with one exception (Father DeSmet) as they were using Indians as laborers. Very much as slave laborers, that is, as they were not paid for their work, the work was mandatory and enforced with the whip and the pillory stocks; the Indians were no more "free" than any black African slave on a southern plantation - if they ran away, the priest had the legal power to send his men (which included Spanish soldiers besides "friendly" Indians, often of other tribes, such as using Opatas to oversee Pimas) so despite the modern attempts to repaint this period of history depicting the Jesuits as the great protectors of the Indians, their "protection" had a cost not much different than if they had done nothing to stop the Spanish. What is most telling here, are the Jesuit letters sent to the Spanish authorities, complaining about their Indians running away from the missions TO THE SPANISH, and working in the mines for them. The poor Indians who did this, running away to the Spanish, were then introduced to "every vice available" by those "evil" Spanish.

I use the term "Jesuit" when we refer to these particular mines and treasures as it is common usage, not because any particular Jesuit priest held a personal stake in them. It is very likely that they had no ownership at all, personally, other than being a member of the Order which owned them corporately. With one exception, in which a Jesuit complained in a letter about another Jesuit who was using the Indians as slaves in his own mine, and also gambling, I think the true "ownership" of nearly all of the mines and treasures was vested in the Society of Jesus, and some portion assigned to the Church. Very convenient for the padres.

Now I expect someone will demand to see those letters of complaints of the Indians running away, and the letter where a Jesuit complains about another Jesuit's use of Indians in his mine and his gambling, but most of these have been posted here on T-net previously so if you are curious it should be possible to locate them by spending some time looking.

Springfield wrote

This thread is taking a bizarre twist, with the happy natives partnered up with their new friends in some sort of mutual mining enterprise organized to provide the brothers with gold and the natives with steady back-breaking work. Sounds like a tough sell to me.

You have hit the nail yet again amigo - this period of history is very complex, but we can start to understand why some tribes just didn't seem to be too attracted to the Missions, like the Apaches for example, and why some of the tribes whom were friendly at first, ended up in rebellion against the padres and Spanish, as in 1751 (Pimas) 1740 (Yaquis) 1695 (Pimas) 1680 (Pueblos, Zunis etc) the record is inexplicable if we accept the apologists version of events.

The whole story is complicated though, which makes for un-ending arguments in our forums as few have examined the various "sides" of the issues. We tend to think of the Jesuit missions as being wholly made up of Pimas, Papagoes and Opatas, at least in that part of Arizona where they were active, yet whom is aware that a fair percentage of the Indian settlers at Tucson were none of these tribes, but Apaches. Some Apaches were attracted to the structured, relatively peaceful lifestyle at the missions - with the one solid benefit of a (nearly) guaranteed food supply every winter. Regardless of how many times Lamar may say "simple" in his posts about this whole subject, there is nothing simple about it.

Lamar wrote

In the reduction system, all of the native charges worked X number of hours per week towards the good of the community, ie, the reduction. This was actually a very good system for the natives because they usually worked less than 4 hours per day, 6 days per week, whereas if they were to leave the reductions, they were subjected to being enslaved by the secular colonists, and if not enslaved, they would have been forced to work about 10 to 12 per day for extremely low wages.

Hmm, skipping a few details here, such as those Indians who went to work for the Spanish were paid wages, while those who worked on the mission ranches, farms or mines got food. Trying to paint the Jesuits as great anti-slavery emancipators really ignores the fact that they were using the Indians in ways which were not much different from slavery, and that it was the Jesuits who introduced slaves into Pimeria. Jesuits were very large slaveowners in other areas including Brazil, Maryland, Argentina and other places, so their status as "great emancipators" is a very strange way to describe them.

Lamar also wrote

Mining for gold and silver had nothing to do with the problem between the Jesuits and the colonists, yet the colonists could not complain that the Jesuits were preventing them from enslaving the natives because the enslavery of fellow Christian subjects was against Spanish Royal Law.

This is erroneous. The secular authorities had enough information of Jesuit mines and witnessed the wealth of the missions, and from the Jesuits own published accounts of the mineral riches found in their regions the Spanish colonists had reason to want to take those mineral riches away from the hands of the Jesuits. Why do you suppose that the Spanish authorities were so forceful in their searches for hidden treasures, on their arrest of the Jesuits? Just for "good measure" or is it really because they had been informed of the hidden wealth? They just didn't know where to search. The mines were hidden well before the arrest took place, which also means that mining ceased. If Lamar's version of this part of history were correct, the kindly Spanish secular authorities would have no reason to search for any hidden treasures or wealth, since those accusations about treasures and mining were all "trumped up" excuses for the lay people to enslave the Indians.

Lamar also wrote

Everyone, including the nobility, KNEW what the REAL problems were, yet they could not address the actual problems because that would have been a politically fatal manuver.

This is presumption on your part, and belies the fact that the Spanish even tortured the arrested Jesuits to learn the secret hiding places. You are here in this sentence trying to re-write that part of history, shifting the focus to some theoretical reason away from what is historical record. And you pride yourself on your historical accuracy.

Cactusjumper wrote

Spain, too late, realized how much damage was done in the New World by expelling the Jesuits. That damage continues to this day. With all of it's natural resources, manpower and land mass, Mexico remains a third world country. Other than the Yaquis, one of the Jesuits most successful endeavors, most of the Native populations were devastated, and remain so today......at least those who survived.

Well, one could take the opposite view, that the current situation in Mexico is a direct cause-and-event of the Jesuit reduction systems; which imposed a "communist" or 'kibbutz' type of economy, with no real reward for those who work harder to get ahead; that their education system instead of catapulting those Indians ahead of their contemporary European "competitors" or at least bringing them onto equal level, it has rather retarded their level of education so that they remain relatively un-educated compared with people living just north of them, but who had a different set of educators.

I will agree that simply arresting the Jesuits and marching them out, without having replacements to place in the missions immediately, was a rather stupid maneuver, which resulted in a fair number of missions becoming totally abandoned. However from the Franciscans who did replace the Jesuits, we find complaints that the Indians had not been educated. The gentle way Father Garces put it was, that his Jesuit predecessors had been "too busy with their labors" - which included quite large ranching enterprises, farming and mining.

Cactusjumper also wrote

The account of the Jesuit priest who became insane on hearing the decree read can be found in "Missionary In Sonora", which is the account written by Father Joseph Och, S.J. and translated by Theodore E. Treutlein.

I don't personally doubt that the arrest was shocking for the Jesuits, enough to cause some reactions - however how do we KNOW that particular priest wasn't simply acting? We don't. It was far easier to fake such a thing in the 1700's than today. If his mental state was so fragile, one wonders about the wisdom of having such a man in charge of a mission, with so many people under his charge. While the Jesuit version of events is our "historical record" it is not unquestionable, and I will go so far as to say it IS biased in favor of the Society of Jesus.

Cactusjumper also wrote

For anyone imagining great Jesuit wealth, this book would be a good one to read.

There is no need to "imagine" great Jesuit wealth, all one needs to do is look at photos of the gold and silver adorning their churches to see how "poor" they truly were.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Since you chose to sit on your hands while Ritchie was telling me how stupid I am, I will assume you agree with everything he wrote in the above post.

Well I don't agree with the various insults tossed around, and have tried to remain silent on them, which I do not wish for anyone to conclude equates with my assent to them. This subject is one of those 'hot button' issues, much more so than I ever believed, among our little community. I don't understand why the level of "hot" is so high, honestly. For the apologists, what difference can it make if some treasure hunters go seeking lost Jesuit mines and or treasures, if they never existed? For the conspiracy theorist, does it matter if the Society of Jesus denies any treasures or mines exist, if you have enough evidence to convince you? I don't get the apparent "investment of emotion" we find in this subject.

I could present a half dozen examples - for why would a particular religious order care, if someone claimed that they were searching for Atlantis and those Benedictine monks knew exactly where it is. Does that make sense to you?

Lamar wrote

An interesting item which most people do not know is that the Jesuits were arming and training their subject charges in defense of their individual missions and reductions. This occurred quite frequently and we may read of requests by Jesuit missionaries, asking for permission to arm and equip the their native charges in order for them to have been able to defend themselves.

Interestingly enough, it was never once stated against WHOM the natives were defending themselves or WHY there would have been a need for the natives to defend themselves in the first place, yet everyone knew the underlying answer already, therefore that issue did not need to be discussed.

Well this scenario you propose was in fact suspected in the case of the Guaranis, the "threat" to the natives being the Portuguese slave raiders; in Pimeria the threat was the Apaches, and south of there the Seris, and they are named in fact in at least one source (request).

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

There is no doubt that the priest was already a bit tetched, as he jumped out a window to his death, according to another account. As an aside, he was not in charge of any mission, as these events took place at the great college in Mexico City. I would imagine he was being taken care of there.

Reading Father Och's account is almost a requirement for anyone wishing to understand the effects and events surrounding the expulsion of the Jesuits. For those who are really only interested in the "Jesuit treasures", it's a waste of time.

I don't like the insulting posts either. Perhaps, as Charlie has suggested, I am a bit too sensitive.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Joe! <and everyone>

I think my last post viz Jesuit treasures may have implied that I am saying there are massive treasures out there, which I see no evidence of anything that large. Respectable, yes - of course to me, a silver bell worth a hundred grand is "respectable" but I am sure that to some folks that is chump change or negligable.

If I could figure out a way to remove our hostilities, I sure would take whatever steps would do it, but short of killing the thread it seems unavoidable. One might even be tempted to suspect that is the desired result of our hostile exchanges - to get the thread removed. I want to extend the hand of friendship to everyone here, if we cannot be friends, we can be at least respectful and agree to disagree. After all, we do share a common interest here, and likely don't like the same flavors of ice cream - but I sure hope to meet you all around a campfire some time, and please don't be offended if I bring a notepad and pencil!

I am guilty of "fanning the flames" too so I am not exempt from the charge of "hostile" - and I will try to rectify that nasty habit on my part.

Wishing you and everyone reading this a very Merry Christmas,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro - you said...

...if we cannot be friends, we can be at least respectful and agree to disagree...

I really wish that were the case, but the old adages of "treat others as you would have them treat you," and "turn the other cheek" seem to fly out the window most of the time.

It's truly a shame because in many cases the amount of time and work it takes to sort out the "facts" and real information from the sarcasm, name calling, etc... just get's to be too much for me

I wish you and Beth a very Merry Christmas!

 

[Springfield]

....I sure hope to meet you all around a campfire some time, and please don't be offended if I bring a notepad and pencil! ...
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Those stealth flash memory recorders are better - you don't miss anything!

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"There is no need to "imagine" great Jesuit wealth, all one needs to do is look at photos of the gold and silver adorning their churches to see how "poor" they truly were.

Unless I am sadly mistaken, we are only able to imagine the visual image of "great Jesuit wealth" that existed in the era and places we are discussing.

Do you know how much labor was required of the natives for the missions? I believe you and the Mrs. have both indicated that they were actually slaves. Do you know if they were ever paid by the Jesuits for working in the missions fields? Do you know if they were able to leave the missions, on a regular basis, to work in the Spanish mines, returning when they wanted?

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Roy,

"There is no need to "imagine" great Jesuit wealth, all one needs to do is look at photos of the gold and silver adorning their churches to see how "poor" they truly were.

Unless I am sadly mistaken, we are only able to imagine the visual image of "great Jesuit wealth" that existed in the era and places we are discussing.

Do you know how much labor was required of the natives for the missions? I believe you and the Mrs. have both indicated that they were actually slaves. Do you know if they were ever paid by the Jesuits for working in the missions fields? Do you know if they were able to leave the missions, on a regular basis, to work in the Spanish mines, returning when they wanted?

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
What was previously posted is nothign more than anti-Catholic rhetoric. Of course the natives were not slaves of the Jesuits! The natives were slaves in the sense that if they left the reductions or the missions, then they were subject to capture and thus be enslaved by the colonists, so in that strict sense, they were committed to remaining on the reductions, however that was a far better alternative than what they faced at the hands of the colonists, my friend.

Lavish adornments in the cathedrals and churches throughout Christianity is nothing new, unless of course, you happen to be one of those people who've nver visited a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox church. On the whole, I would say that the churches of the New World colonies were far less adorned than those of Europe, however in defense of this, the donors were generally not as wealthy either.

All monies earned by the natives were placed in the communal treasure chest and the funds were spent in the same community. Don't believe for a second all of that anti-Jesuit nonsense, my friend. The allegations started with the colonists and then further the anti-Catholic Protestants embellished the tales and this led to where we now are. A pack of lies and untruths, far removed from the historical facts. There is absolutely NO PROOF that the Jesuits abused or took advantage of their native charges. Quite to the contrary, we may read of eye-witness accounts from the mouths of the natives themselves, proclaiming to the passivity and agreeability of the Jesuits. The Jesuits did not overly abuse anyone, quite unlike the Franciscans or the Dominicans, who were firm believers in physical retribution.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I appreciate your reply to my questions for Roy, however, I knew the answers to all of them. I was simply asking Roy if he knew those answers. Some would call that "stirring the pot". At this point in time, I am unsure if I know what that means.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dewar cactusjumper;
I am sorry my friend, I did not realize that your question was specifically targeted to a single recepient. Shall I delete my prior?
Your friend:
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Those stealth flash memory recorders are better - you don't miss anything!

Great idea amigo - I just wonder how some folks might react to a recorder, you know a lot of people won't say things "on tape" that they will say without it - and I can't run so fast anymore!


Cactusjumper wrote

Do you know how much labor was required of the natives for the missions? I believe you and the Mrs. have both indicated that they were actually slaves. Do you know if they were ever paid by the Jesuits for working in the missions fields? Do you know if they were able to leave the missions, on a regular basis, to work in the Spanish mines, returning when they wanted?

and Lamar wrote

Dear cactusjumper;
What was previously posted is nothign more than anti-Catholic rhetoric.

.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I knew the answers to all of them. I was simply asking Roy if he knew those answers.

Working from memory, I believe the Indians were supposed to work a half-day for the padres, six days per week; one of the complaints raised against the Jesuits was that they were not allowing the Indians enough time to get their own work done, so I don' t know just how accurate that "half day" was in practice. I have not said that they were SLAVES of the Jesuits, but were being used very much as slaves. The Jesuits owned slaves, mostly of African origins however; as far as I know, no Indians were ever paid a wage for working for the padres, other than a food allowance out of the common store of food. I do recall reading that Indians might be allowed to go work in the Spanish mines, if permission were obtained from the padres.

This issue is splitting hairs, and slavery was not fully abolished in the southwest until 1829, which is well after the Jesuits had gone. About the only big difference is "ownership" - a slave was held in chattel as property which could be sold, willed, traded etc while the mission Indians were not quite on that level. However they were not free to leave the mission, and were literally forced labor - these are two key definitions of slavery.

Ever heard of a treasure hunter named Charley Cluskey? Here is a report of Mr. Cluskey finding a lost Jesuit mine;

"Arriving at the spot, they proceeded in a systematic manner to prospect the mountains. Their efforts were after a time rewarded with success. Charlie Clusker struck upon a well-defined trail leading into the mountains, which he followed, and soon came upon a road well graded and built of large stone, evidently with care, which, following, brought him to the old Jesuit mine.

Here at last was the mystery solved - the truth established that in the old time, years ago, men had been engaged in mining. The remains of an old shaft were found, partly filled in, but showing marks of the pick and gad. The party at once proceeded to clear away some of the rubbish, and soon obtained quite a lot of the ore, which is rich enough to satisfy the heart of the most rapacious miner - assaying from $600 to $1000 per ton.

The mine has been called the Jesuit, and another close by the Old Padre. Steps were at once taken to reap the reward of their perseverance,... "

<from the New York Times, Aug. 1st, 1870>

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You should Google "Wandering Jew Mine". There is a good description of how the earlier diggings were found while cutting into the vein. Also a description of how the peak of the mountain where the Jesuit Mine was could be seen from the front door of Tumacacori Mission.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

One more thing; Father Och's account of the reading of the order of suppression could not have been an eyewitness account, because of all the Padres that had been arrested, Father Och was not among them. He was gravely ill and allowed to remain at his mission for several days because he could not travel in his condition.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Sorry about all these small posts, but I am catching up after a few days away. Please show me ONE place where I either embellished any facts, left out key pieces of information that might damage my point, or any attempts to change an actual translation to suit my needs? While I have seen that done by a couple of others, I don't do it myself (for the sake of intellectual honesty).

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,
For our dear readers, whom may be thinking that I am making this up about the whole forced labor issue on the Jesuit missions, consider these extracts.

"The Church, like all the other institutions brought in by the Spaniards, rested, in its physical part, upon the labor of the Indians, the the clergy's use of repartimientos and forced labor generally differed in no essential respect from that of other agencies."<footnote from The Jesuit Missions of Northern Mexico by Charles W. Polzer, SJ pp 505>

"The padre enforced Indian participation in the communal agricultural enterprises of the mission, for compulsory native labor was the basis upon which in large part rested the temporal existence of the mission."
<ibid>

"Compulsory" labor is the "nice" way of saying FORCED labor.

OH and I ought to specify, that a native WAS free to leave the mission, so long as he remained a non-Christian; once he became a "believer" he <or she> was NOT free to leave without the permission of the Padres, which puts them in very similar standing to slaves and master.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Another mining enterprise by the Jesuits, which is well documented, even to this day, is in Chile.

Specifically, I am talking about the Codelco Chile Corporation, who planned their operations until well into the 21st century. (a great wealth of underground copper), based on writing by the Jesuits, themselves.

From their own sources, it is revealed that, the mine - called El Teniente was a mine known from the 16th century - owned by.................
the Jesuits, who actually wrote about it themselves. Later, it was owned by others (Spanish government) and remains, to this very day, in operation by the Chile government.

Kind of "rich source of minerals" to be still mining, I would think.

The government's consulting firm, Itasca - puts out a regular newletter, and includes the original history of the mine and how it was located and by whom.

So, if a mine orignally owned by the Jesuits is STILL in operation, I think there is proof there that they had a rich undertaking. Ten more to go Joe.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"One more thing; Father Och's account of the reading of the order of suppression could not have been an eyewitness account, because of all the Padres that had been arrested, Father Och was not among them. He was gravely ill and allowed to remain at his mission for several days because he could not travel in his condition."

You are correct that Father Och was an ill man, but he had been removed from his mission in 1765. That was when he was first too ill to continue running the mission. His illness "forced his recall to Mexico City, where, in the Jesuit College of Mexico, he first learned of the decree for the expulsion of all Jesuits from Spain and the Spanish Colonies. As a prisoner in the College, Father Och witnessed the first of many harrowing events in the expulsion."

His account of the events was as an eyewitness.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I just wanted to set the record straight. I often ask questions that I know the answers to, in order to gauge the strength of the opposing opinions. No doubt that is an evil thing to do, but I have used that method too many years to change now.

Thank you for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,

For the sake of our readers (those not posting) who may not understand some of the terminology we are using here are a few explanations.

Encomiendo - The encomienda is a trusteeship labor system that was employed by the Spanish crown during the Spanish colonization of the Americas.. In the encomienda, the crown granted a person a specified number of natives for whom they were to take responsibility. The receiver of the grant was to instruct the natives in the Spanish language and in the Catholic faith. In return, they could exact tribute from the natives in the form of labour, gold or other products, such as in corn, wheat or chickens.

Repartimiento - The Repartimiento de Labor was a colonial forced system imposed upon the indigenous population of Spanish America . In concept it was similar to other tribute-labor systems, such as the mita of the Inca Empire or the corvée of Ancien Régime France: the natives were forced to do low-paid or unpaid labor for a certain number of weeks or months each year on Spanish-owned farms, mines, workshops (obrajes), and public projects. Like the encomienda system that preceded it, the repartimiento was not slavery, in that the worker is not owned outright—being free in various respects other than in the dispensation of his or her labor—and the work was intermittent.

Now recall that passage we found in Father Polzer's book, - there was little difference between the forced labor system of the Spanish and that of the missions! Kind of puts that "defender against slavery" title in a different perspective. Were the good padres really "saving" the poor Indians from those evil Spanish, or were they simply keeping the labor pool (forced labor pool) for their own purposes?

Our apologists would have us believe that the Jesuit missions (and all of the missions in general) were paternalistic little "utopias" of the Christian faith, and not a system which tended to trap, enslave and brutalize the natives in order to make profits for the Order and the Church. That is not quite the way everyone saw them.

It has been a transformation in which the Indian has fallen to most of the white man's vices and adopted very few of his virtues My experience has been over considerable of the country and amongst several tribes and my observation has told me that about the Mission centers be the denomination what it may is to be found the greatest debauchery and rascality in the Indian and that right at their very gates.

<Canadian wilds By Martin Hunter, Published by AR HARDING, St Louis Mo 1907 pp 55>

I don't really wish to be coming across as "Jesuit-bashing" but since we only get one rather white-washed version from the 'other side' of this debate, we are in the position of posting only that which does not agree with the Jesuit apologist version. So, let me post this extract, which I agree with;

None but an entirely prejudiced opponent of the Jesuits would imagine that all the members of any province of the Society were lacking in moral delicacy and deep religious feeling In every age and clime there were Jesuits of lofty purpose great sincerity and unselfish activity for what they regarded as the good of man There were many such in the long calendar of the Germanic provinces.

<A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe>

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth and Roy,

It seems to me, that the two of you are the experts on South American Jesuit mining. I will leave the other side of that debate to others, like Lamar. While I have dabbled in that area, Mexico and the Southwest has been my main historical interest.

I am unwilling to take on another part of the world at this time.

Take care,

Joe