JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

Some people tend to overestimate religion as a motivation simply because they have a focus to promote those beliefs.

I don't think it's possible to underestimate the driving force that religion was, in the 18th century as opposed to what it is, today. Back then, there was no separation of church and state. Until the rise of the Enlightenment movement, which would flourish around the 1790's, religion was at the center of most people's life.

 

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[UncleMatt]

Who can say, its all guess work from our modern perspective, since we lack written records from the Native American side of their interaction with the Spanish. And didn't many of the Native Americans convert to Catholicism?

 

[deducer]

deducer,

It's really quite simple. In seeking the truth, it only makes sense to examine both sides of the question....Pro and con. In those days, the natives were able to take their complaints to the Spanish courts in Mexico. In many cases, they did. They aired their complaints against the Jesuits. Being forced to work in Jesuit mines was not one of those complaints.

The only real way we can hope to educate ourselves about that history, is by reading what the historians and contemporary writers have recorded. While any of them could have been mistaken or even lied, only by comparing their stories with others can you get some sense of what might have truly happened.

We all, including you, presume and guess.....based on what we hear and read. No one, alive, was there.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Unlike you, I don't allow myself the luxury of presuming or guessing, when it comes to researching subject matters that I have invested my time in, substantially.

And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantialized, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns. For example, the question of whether Jesuits were complicit in mining can be answered, not by looking for outright admittance, but looking at the macrocosm and the microcosm of the subject matter itself, for example-the philosophy and vision of the founder, Ignatius Loyola who was himself a foot soldier in the Basque legion, the later philosophy of the organization itself, its trajectory through history, and how history has treated it (with frequent expulsions, etc).

You, on the other hand, have offered mostly platitudes that do not suggest objective or solid researching, some examples of which are listed below:

Yes, there are many cases where..

There are many other reports that...

I fear I'm not up for going through all of my books

This is a case where I would be lost knowing which books to look in.

So it would seem that you are the one presuming or guessing.

 

[deducer]

Treasure stories are not enough to make me believe in Jesuit mining.

Then why the two "no-mining allowed" Jesuit precepts in 1699 and in 1747?

Also why was disavowal of participation in mining, a part of the agreement between the Spanish Government and the Jesuits as far as Spain sponsoring Jesuit excursion into the New World?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: coffee? To keep things simple, the new world was ruled by two separate Kings representatives, The Conciles of the Indies.

The one in North America ruled "NO" Jesuit mining, but left many a loophole, while the one in South America simply turned a blind eye to mining which was extensivly carried out.

As for their vow of poverty, that was for the mission Priest, not Rome

As a matter of fact the society was heavily involved in mining in the old country. Yes, the Jesuit Society was involved in mining,, as well as other hanky pankies. Wealth was power, especially to an ambitious society such as the Jesuit, Sooooooo ?.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Then why the two "no-mining allowed" Jesuit precepts in 1699 and in 1747? Also why was disavowal of participation in mining, a part of the agreement between the Spanish Government and the Jesuits as far as Spain sponsoring Jesuit excursion into the New World?

deducer, It's just history. The Jesuits had many enemies who were constantly making accusations against the Order to the royal ears, where ever and whenever they could. One of the charges was that the priests were stealing from the king. It was a constant whisper that they were engaged in mining.....everywhere. In some cases that was a true story.

The end results of all that whispering was the expulsion.......with no real evidence before or after in Northern Mexico, at least none that I find viable. South America and other regions of North America are another story.

"And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantialized, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns. For example, the question of whether Jesuits were complicit in mining can be answered, not by looking for outright admittance, but looking at the macrocosm and the microcosm of the subject matter itself, for example-the philosophy and vision of the founder, Ignatius Loyola who was himself a foot soldier in the Basque legion, the later philosophy of the organization itself, its trajectory through history, and how history has treated it (with frequent expellation, etc).

You, on the other hand, have offered mostly platitudes that do not suggest objective or solid researching, some examples of which are listed below:"

Like many others you seem to find my library some kind of personal threat. If you find only "platitudes" in my posts, perhaps you need a little help in understanding what I write. I do a great deal of sourcing in what I write.

If you are only here to insult my capabilities/intelligence, you need to find someone else.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer, It's just history. The Jesuits had many enemies who were constantly making accusations against the Order to the royal ears, where ever and whenever they could. One of the charges was that the priests were stealing from the king. It was a constant whisper that they were engaged in mining.....everywhere. In some cases that was a true story.

The end results of all that whispering was the expulsion.......with no real evidence before or after in Northern Mexico, at least none that I find viable. South America and other regions of North America are another story.

"And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantialized, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns. For example, the question of whether Jesuits were complicit in mining can be answered, not by looking for outright admittance, but looking at the macrocosm and the microcosm of the subject matter itself, for example-the philosophy and vision of the founder, Ignatius Loyola who was himself a foot soldier in the Basque legion, the later philosophy of the organization itself, its trajectory through history, and how history has treated it (with frequent expellation, etc).

You, on the other hand, have offered mostly platitudes that do not suggest objective or solid researching, some examples of which are listed below:"

Like many others you seem to find my library some kind of personal threat. If you find only "platitudes" in my posts, perhaps you need a little help in understanding what I write. I do a great deal of sourcing in what I write.

If you are only here to insult my capabilities/intelligence, you need to find someone else.

Joe Ribaudo

As I have just said, the size of anyone's library does not matter to me as much as that person's ability to research in an efficient manner that is beneficial to me and others.

Your MO is to make a claim and then back it up with a variety of useless platitudes such as "in many cases," or "many other reports," which is not helpful to me, nor to others, because it does not allow for further research, perhaps because your wishful thinking is that we will take you at your word and stop there, and that's besides the point.

For instance, Oroblanco consistently references his sources, which gives me more resources to look up in that it may shed light on other inquiries I am making. Prior to his referencing the New Mexico Blue Book, I had never heard of it, but now that I have, I have added it to the list of resources to research.

We are all here to become informed through intelligent discussion, and it doesn't help when someone says "just because that's so," and that's been a recurring theme in a majority of your posts. If you research extensively as you claim to do, it should then be no problem for you to reference your sources specifically as that is more helpful.

 

[Springfield]

... the New Mexico Blue Book, I had never heard of it, but now that I have, I have added it to the list of resources to research. ...

It's a handy document - a yearly almanac, really - and a good source for facts and figures, simple maps, state birds and politicians' photos. As an historical reference, the state had high hopes when it began publishing the Blue Book shortly after statehood in (1912), but I would be cautious about using it's 'State History' tab as a research choice. The credited historians chosen are providing thumbnail summaries for the most part - usually good for names, dates and places, but not providing much else. Nice historical timeline summary last time I looked.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

You have been here for two (2) months. I have been providing sources to folks since 2002. I must admit, I'm running out of mental energy. Sorry you have found my efforts a waste of your time. To be honest, I doubt it will get any better.

I do hope you get all the information you are looking for here.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning my friends, coffee? In 'none needed' defense of my good friend Cactus, his stated purpose is to be controversial on any subject in order to make you actually think, and he has been quite successful.

Second thought, 'references,' I challenge anyone to come up with any referenced, true data on Tayopa - the one factor of which I am practically the only reference, and this by back checking ,.

Frwnk Dobie is as near as I can think of in his often quoted 'Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver' book. However in his quoted data, he often modified it a bit through Author's privilege / license. Shall we be charitable and say half truth?

When even the perpetrators Them selves deny it's existence and hide any reference to it in special files in Rome accessible to only the 'need to know' group.what can one expect.

So, solid references, while necessary, may be non existent..

Many of the present references on Tayopa came from me, when I was able to backcheck on them after I had found Tayopa.

So in looking for lost mines, Treasures etc., remember again, "if they were able to be accurately researched for truth,and used, etc, the object would have been located long ago.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

...So in looking for lost mines, Treasures etc., remember again, "if they were able to be accurately researched for truth,and used, etc, the object would have been located long ago. Don Jose de La Mancha

If, of course, they existed at all.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"G'd morning my friends, coffee? In 'none needed' defense of my good friend Cactus, his stated purpose is to be controversial on any subject in order to make you actually think, and he has been quite successful.

Thank you for the "defense". Don't know that my "stated purpose" was ever "to be controversial". Usually, when I question someone's facts, I supply opposing facts from well known sources. I admit to not following that course lately. I find it harder to focus on research these days. I don't mind deducer calling my statements for sources, just don't feel like going through my books for them. Used to know just where to look, but have lost that memory.

Thanks again friend,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze cactus, ya mean that you are just plain onery ?? I need coffee.

Jose

 

[deducer]

You have been here for two (2) months. I have been providing sources to folks since 2002. I must admit, I'm running out of mental energy.

Used to know just where to look, but have lost that memory.

Joe,

While I have been registered for just two months, I have been reading for much longer than that. Not just this forum but a few others as well. I have read through pretty much all the threads concerning the stone maps.

As a matter of fact, here is a phrase from a post that you made on 1/3/03 from the LDM forum where you said:

my memory isn't completly shot yet

Another phrase from a post on 3/16/05:

My memory is getting way bad.

And again, on 1/3/08:

My memory is not so good any more.

So you'll forgive me if I don't quite take your words when you claim that your mental energy, or memory, in 2014, is failing you. I think we should give your memory another 10 years before it actually begins to fail you.

It seems that your memory conveniently fails you when you are offered visual or documented evidence that is contrary to your opinion or perception of what the Jesuits were doing in the Southwest.

 

[Mastiff4me]

Joe- if my memory serves me correctly, you are a wonderful writer and researcher who has brought so much to this table. You have served to create and weave these threads into quite a long buffet of knowledge, ideas, and facts. I keep coming back, because it is GOOD. Bravo!

 

[cactusjumper]

Jodie,

You are too kind to this old warhorse.

I have seen that you have a wonderful way with words yourself. I look forward to one day reading a number of your books. Historical novels keep the historical passion alive, and creates more interest in real history.

Thank you again for your kind words.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

"It seems that your memory conveniently fails you when you are offered visual or documented evidence that is contrary to your opinion or perception of what the Jesuits were doing in the Southwest.

"

OK! Just tell me, specifically, what you would like me to back up. I realize it will be an exercise in futility, as you will just call the authors liars.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[L.C. BAKER]

"And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantiated, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns.

That is very well put.

L.C.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield - I only cited the NM Blue Book because I remembered it as having that statement, not that it is a greatly detailed resource, and also for the fact that it claimed to be the "official" word. Also I would like to see a list of mines which never existed.

Joe - I thought you enjoyed being drawn back to crack open those books? And you have not seen anything substantial to prove that the Jesuits had mines, to go along with the vast source documents stating they also had mines they operated but not openly?

I do not have the time right now or I might try to list those sources, which you say are not convincing. Actually I can't understand your position at all, when it can be shown that they owned mines in several areas of northern Mexico openly, which were conveniently not mentioned by Nentvig and father Polzer is silent about, you still stand by your view that there is nothing to it. You can literally stand in several old Jesuit mines, as listed previously, like the Salero and Wandering Jew, which are just a couple of examples, mines which were lost for a century. The individual priests and lay brothers (who probably outnumbered the priests) may well have had personal vows of poverty, which did not apply to the Order at all, in fact in their own documents this is explained to neophytes, that you are to deny your family but are repaid a thousand fold by having thousands of "brothers" in the Order, you renounce your own wealth but are then repaid with all the wealth of the Church etc. They were even instructed to always dress simply and affect an image of poverty, and to be seen giving alms and aid to the poorest, so as to encourage contributions from the wealthy.

You also dismiss Nentvig's description of various mines, conveniently located by Jesuit missions and with no owners named as operating them, as if it is the same as us discussing the Bully Bueno. I will remind you with one example:

Aribaca, destroyed in 1751, was an estancia and dependent mission of Guebavi. Two ranches nearby, Sopori and Tucubavi, have remained deserted although the missionary of Guebavi has sent some cattle there, and the mines in the vicinity are being worked.

<from Rudo Ensayo by father Nentvig SJ>

Nentvig lists the mines elsewhere in his book which are being worked by Spaniards, and this passage is from his chapter on the Jesuit missions, not the chapter on the Spanish mines. Since he did not list the mines near Arivaca as being among those worked by the Spaniards, who or whom do you say had them? I read that as those mines belonged to the Jesuit mission at Guevavi, and don't see how you can interpret it differently, since Nentvig even titled the chapter listing the Spanish mines and settlements as Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And don't sell yourself short Joe!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

"And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantiated, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns. That is very well put. L.C.

L.C.,

That's exactly what I do. Other than reading the written word, how would you do it?

Joe Ribaudo