JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

As an aside, the CROW BARS or CHISELS issue is not easy to understand;

The translation I get for CROW BAR is Krähestab, Brechstange or Stemmeisen
while the word for CHISEL is Meißel or Beitel

I don't see how the translator made this error accidentally.
Oroblanco

 

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[Springfield]

PS Don't take anything I say as factual - read it all over for yourself, but this time look for the evidence of mining and treasures instead of looking for excuses and explanations to try to explain it all away. You may get a different conclusion.

This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America) suffers from the idolus tribus phenomenon - supporting an argument by examining the evidence with a pre-concieved bias. The evidence that has surfaced so far is subject to interpretation, but the burden of proof that convinces the 'prudent man' has not yet been presented. One thing I find interesting is Mr. Ribaudo's admission that he was once a strong supporter of the 'Jesuit mining' argument, but years of thorough research on his part caused him to change his opinion. And, until a 'smoking gun' appears, that's all we can have - an opinion, or for many, a wish.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"That what I have underlined the Juncker Brother should, after he has read it, delete it so that no foreign eyes can see it. "

This statement taken alone, is misleading. It has nothing to do with mining, legal or illegal. One needs to read what is written just before the seemingly damning comment, and after, to keep it in context.

You should keep in mind that I could step into your side of the debate and make just as convincing of an argument for the Jesuits being involved in mining, and leaving a vast treasure behind when they were expelled.

On the other hand, I have pursued each and every argument made for Jesuit treasures (that I could find) and found the evidence to be very thin.

As I have said many times, I hope that you or someone else does find a Jesuit treasure, and has it authenticated. Until then, I remain unconvinced.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America) suffers from the idolus tribus phenomenon - supporting an argument by examining the evidence with a pre-concieved bias. The evidence that has surfaced so far is subject to interpretation, but the burden of proof that convinces the 'prudent man' not yet been presented. One thing I find interesting is Mr. Ribaudo's admission that he was once a strong supporter of the 'Jesuit mining' argument, but years of thorough research on his part caused him to change his opinion. And, until a 'smoking gun' appears, that's all we can have - an opinion, or for many, a wish.

Springfield,

Many of my arguments for the existence of the Jesuit treasures can still be found on the LDM Forum. It took many years to dissuade me from that belief.

Take care,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

Since many people would be motivated to never reveal if they found a large Jesuit treasure, we may never have the answers we seek. Gollum's story about his friend who found the gold bars in AZ is a good example. A private party purchased them, and they were never seen or heard from again. There could easily be evidence to decide this one way or the other in a private collection that is not available to the public knowledge...

 

[cactusjumper]

Here's an old post concerning Jesuit treasure in the Supe's:
______________________________________________

Guys, (Wayne, Mike, Azmula and maybe even Joe)

Hopefully this question is not too far off topic.

I believe everyone, at one time or another, has tied the Stone Maps to the Jesuits. Exactly what is it on the stone maps that shouts, the Jesuits were involved with these stones. I do see the large stone cross carved on the back of one of the trail maps. Is this the link? Does the word DON on the back of the other trail map tie a Mexican family or perhaps even the Peralta’s to the stone maps? The image of the Priest on the H/P Stone?

How does the scenario in which Travis Tumlinson carves the H/P map impact the belief that the Jesuits are involved or is there something on the H/P stone that also points to the Jesuits?

This query is not an attempt at a gotcha but an honest attempt to help me understand, Why the Jesuits?

Thanks,

Garry

PS Wayne, I hesitate to address a lot of your thoughts right now because it would be shooting from the hip and relying on memory. Some of my materials are not close at hand and it would require some reviewing to generate a thoughful dialog. I'm paying attention! Please continue.


Garry,

I don't know as much about the Stone Maps as the others you mentioned, but I have spent around 45-years or so stumbling around the story. Some might expect that I would pick up a little knowledge just through osmosis.

It all started at a time when I was a fan of all the Jesuit treasure stories. At that time, everyone around me also believed in Jesuit treasures. In addition to that was the "fact" that Waltz had tied his mine to a "church". Ed Piper was searching for a Jesuit treasure as well as Celeste Jones and Al Morrow.

As for the Stone Maps, I doubt there is a need to enumerate the number of arguments that have been used to tie them to the Peralta's. If you accept that connection, it's a sure trail to Arispe and the families connection to the Jesuit church there.

You do have what looks like a man in a priests robes holding a cross. There are many church symbols on the Stone Maps. It seems natural to assume Jesuit, but in fact the Franciscan Order seems like a stronger connection......EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE.

I know that the trail maps lead one into the southwestern end of the range and eventually to Little Boulder Canyon. Along the way, they show mines, canyons and peaks that are actually there, in the correct locations.

Through many years of my own research, I am convinced the maps have nothing to do with the Jesuits. Others are still convinced, but I doubt you will ever hear any real evidence that proves their point.

I have been wrong many times, so this might just be another case. I have always been willing to look at anyone's conclusions, and have many of them in my records, including, of course, Azmula's.

Take care,

Maybe Even Joe

_____________________

 

[cactusjumper]

Since many people would be motivated to never reveal if they found a large Jesuit treasure, we may never have the answers we seek. Gollum's story about his friend who found the gold bars in AZ is a good example. A private party purchased them, and they were never seen or heard from again. There could easily be evidence to decide this one way or the other in a private collection that is not available to the public knowledge...

UM,

Why not take one (1) of those bars and have it authenticated? The price of those you don't expose would be worth much more with such an authentication by a reliable source. Only need to say, only found this one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

As an aside, the CROW BARS or CHISELS issue is not easy to understand;

The translation I get for CROW BAR is Krähestab, Brechstange or Stemmeisen
while the word for CHISEL is Meißel or Beitel

I don't see how the translator made this error accidentally.
Oroblanco

Roy,

I believe the Arizona Museum of History has pictures of the original letters. I'm at work right now, but the information is available at the beginning of the book that I have at home.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America) suffers from the idolus tribus phenomenon - supporting an argument by examining the evidence with a pre-concieved bias. The evidence that has surfaced so far is subject to interpretation, but the burden of proof that convinces the 'prudent man' has not yet been presented. One thing I find interesting is Mr. Ribaudo's admission that he was once a strong supporter of the 'Jesuit mining' argument, but years of thorough research on his part caused him to change his opinion. And, until a 'smoking gun' appears, that's all we can have - an opinion, or for many, a wish.

Springfield,

"idolus tribus"

You Sir, have a very impressive vocabulary!

Good post,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

Get out of my head! I was thinking along those exact lines! But many people are simply colorful in their ways of dealing with a large find. Paranoia frequently gets involved! And I don't know if you have noticed, but most of us t-hunters are a little off center out of the gate, let alone after we have worked hard for many years. (sometimes in solitude and in poverty). Now all of YOU guys are totally sane! (ducks thrown shoe)

And the guy who bought it off of them probably just melted it down for a quick sale.

UM,

Why not take one (1) of those bars and have it authenticated? The price of those you don't expose would be worth much more with such an authentication by a reliable source. Only need to say, only found this one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

Here is a question: Who would you take one of those bars to that could authenticate it? Last I heard, those kinds of bars are extremely rare. So where exactly would one learn that trade, or gain the experience, to authenticate such a gold bar? Now you could determine its chemical composition, and use that as a metric for authentication, but what else? Is there a Jesuit "book of bars" to use for reference? I don't think so.

 

[cactusjumper]

"I have been wrong many times, so this might just be another case. I have always been willing to look at anyone's conclusions, and have many of them in my records, including, of course, Azmula's."

Along those lines, Ben Davis and his crew, imaginary or real, tried to tie the Stone Maps to the Tucson Artifacts. As a result of that claim, I probably have as much information as one could possibly acquire on the lead artifacts, including the Thomas Bent Manuscript.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"In 2010 the photographic negatives of the letters in the Arizona State Museum photo archives were digitized, which greatly facilitated the resolution of many problems of transcription and translation."

I believe one could get a copy of letter 48, in the original form.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

"idolus tribus"

You Sir, have a very impressive vocabulary!

Good post,

Joe

Ha ha - that term I had forgotten from the old days (I've slept many times since the '60's) and had to go look it up. When I was in engineering school, I never thought that the logic classes we were required to take would be possibly our most useful.

 

[Springfield]

Here is a question: Who would you take one of those bars to that could authenticate it? Last I heard, those kinds of bars are extremely rare. So where exactly would one learn that trade, or gain the experience, to authenticate such a gold bar? Now you could determine its chemical composition, and use that as a metric for authentication, but what else? Is there a Jesuit "book of bars" to use for reference? I don't think so.

Thanks to Igadbois for the link:
1691 - Father Kino Ingots from Sonora, Mexico - Holabird-Kagin Americana

For those who don't want to wade through the technicalities presented by a experienced mining man and numismatic antiquities dealer, here's the takeaway:

" ... Conclusion
The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.
The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.
The Kino ingots seen and tested here are, in all probability and currently beyond the possibility of reasonable doubt fake. The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."

 

[Oroblanco]

Better fill your coffee mug for this one.

Hola amigos,
Springfield wrote

This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America) suffers from the idolus tribus phenomenon - supporting an argument by examining the evidence with a pre-concieved bias.

Considering that our debate more closely resembles a courtroom battle, this would be the normal and correct approach, for each side of the debate (guilty vs innocent) to present the case for their respective sides, and against their opponent's. It is not a scientific exam of a new species of amoeba, though our discussion often delves into minutea.


Springfield also wrote

The evidence that has surfaced so far is subject to interpretation, but the burden of proof that convinces the 'prudent man' has not yet been presented.

I must respectfully disagree - the Catholic study of the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, conclusively proves the Order owned and operated MINES. That is a key prerequisite to establish that the product of said mines, precious metals, would and must exist, yet such prodcuts have very largely never been accounted for. Considering that the Jesuit apologist position in modern times has denied ANY and ALL mining activities, having used the Indians as slaves, of ever having accumulated treasures, all of which positions are provably false, and contradicted by older reference sources, any prudent man must see that the Jesuits indeed owned precious metal mines and operated them, some openly and legally and yet very quietly. When their mining activities were brought to light, by other Catholic religious authorities, the Order violently opposed that authority (Palafox). More on this in a moment.


Springfield also wrote

One thing I find interesting is Mr. Ribaudo's admission that he was once a strong supporter of the 'Jesuit mining' argument, but years of thorough research on his part caused him to change his opinion. And, until a 'smoking gun' appears, that's all we can have - an opinion, or for many, a wish.

Joe's former or current view on the topic really have no bearing on the question. His former view appears to have been focused on Jesuit treasure in the Superstitions, for which there is virtually no evidence to support, at least not that I am aware of. A man of reason always holds his opinions open to revision when new evidence appears. I do not know the generation of Joe's view, however it would be very easy to go from believing the treasure stories in circulation, to total disbelief by then reading such authorities as Polzer and Bolton, especially since the whole subject of whether the Jesuits had mines and treasures has not been a topic of interest to non-partisan historians. This progression of opinion would be logical also by a look at the Peralta stones, which so many believe to be Jesuit, and yet there is nothing to tie them to the Jesuits specifically other than quasi-Catholic symbols and a leap of logic. I too have had a complete change of view on this topic, for I once thought ALL lost treasures/mines were so much fantasy.


As an aside here but to address the prudent man question, there should not be any evidence that the Jesuits had mines, nor were wealthy, if we are to believe they did not have mines nor wealth. Yet we have a record of mines owned openly, Polzer admits to priests caught mining, West found a similar case in which the mines were claimed to be owned by the college of Matape, the Pious Fund for California owned mines, the college of Queretaro's main source of income and support were the mines owned by the college. All these mines were owned openly, yet our Jesuit apologists and many historians are silent about them! Are we to believe Polzer then or Bolton, both of whom held that the Jesuits never had any mines?


Further, we have legends of lost mines which, according to the Indians whom passed the stories to earlier treasure hunters, were worked by the padres using the Indians as labor, and which were deliberately hidden on their departure. Some of these legendary mines have been found, and you can stand in them, like the Salero. These illicit, secret mines were NOT owned openly, nor are they often admitted to though Nentvig mentions several like the mines of Arivaca and near Guevavi. The fact that you have legends of lost mines, which were found and you can stand in, should be very convincing evidence that other "legends" of lost mines which have not yet been found, are true.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


"That what I have underlined the Juncker Brother should, after he has read it, delete it so that no foreign eyes can see it. "


This statement taken alone, is misleading. It has nothing to do with mining, legal or illegal. One needs to read what is written just before the seemingly damning comment, and after, to keep it in context.

I put that statement in BOLD typeface to emphasize the direct evidence that our Jesuit padres did practice secrecy in their communications. There are several similar, if briefer statements in Segesser's letters, for he knew that his mail was being opened and read by others. So I must respectfully disagree, that this proof of the practice of keeping communications secret, which extends beyond just mining, is evidence that the Jesuit records must be viewed with a suspicious eye.


Cactusjumper wrote

You should keep in mind that I could step into your side of the debate and make just as convincing of an argument for the Jesuits being involved in mining, and leaving a vast treasure behind when they were expelled.


On the other hand, I have pursued each and every argument made for Jesuit treasures (that I could find) and found the evidence to be very thin.


As I have said many times, I hope that you or someone else does find a Jesuit treasure, and has it authenticated. Until then, I remain unconvinced.

Then you will remain locked in your position forever, for it is extremely unlikely that any Jesuit authority is ever going to admit "guilt" by positively identifying any treasure recovered, nor is it likely that any one who finds such a treasure, is going to send it off to some academics to study. That does not speak well of you amigo, to insist on a nearly impossible type of evidence before you would re-consider your position.


Frankly I do not understand this immovable position held by you, and some others here (including a few whom do not post but we have communicated by PM) which seems to demand even more than what already exists. We have turned up documentation of Jesuit owned and operated precious metal mines, we have cases of once-legendary lost mines which have been found and you can stand in, we have some impressive treasures witnessed by more than one authority as at San Xavier del Bac, which has vanished into the air, we have cases of the Jesuits themselves reporting that they hid the "ornaments of the church" during times of crisis, we have the Spanish authorities efforts to turn up the wealth they knew the Jesuits had accumulated which were largely a failure (and little wonder that the Jesuits witnessing the rather inept search methods, were laughing up their sleeves) we now even have a Jesuit complaining that he cannot work the silver and gold mines in safety, making it hard to come up with money!


This post is already very long but I have to add this.


As mentioned above, bishop Palafox found a state of affairs in Mexico that shocked him so badly that he was compelled to write to the Pope about it. Does he complain about the Jesuits having girlfriends or other shocking abuse of their position? NO - in fact here is that letter (again) as I am too lazy to go hunt up the old post where it was, and to save our readers whom have not read it from the same.

Holy Father I found in the hands of the Jesuits almost all the wealth the stock and the opulence of these American provinces and they still are owners of the same. Two of their Colleges at present possess three hundred thousand sheep besides large cattle. While all the Cathedrals and Religious Orders taken together own barely three sugar plantations the Society itself owns six of the largest in the Mexican province where they have only two Colleges. Now Holy Father a plantation of this kind is on the average valued at five hundred thousand dollars and upwards some of them drawing near to a million dollars and there is such as brings in a hundred thousand dollars a year. In addition they have farms of such prodigious size that while the homesteads are four to six leagues apart the boundaries of the land touch. Likewise they have very rich silver mines and so immoderately are they increasing their might and wealth that if they continue at the same rate the priests will have to become dependent on the Society laymen to become its tenants and other Religious must beg at its gates.

The rich silver mines are but ONE aspect of the massive wealth being accumulated by the Jesuits, and remember this letter to Pope Innocent XI was written in the mid-1600s, the Jesuits remained operating and accumulating wealth in Mexico for another century!

This massive wealth Palafox saw as a threat to the very existence of Mexico, which indeed it was! The English visited Jesuit Baja California and published the massive wealth seen there. Yet even though it was known that the Jesuits were indeed massively wealthy, very little of that wealth was found by the Spanish authorities, as indeed very few of their mines were found! A simile would be if you saw me holding a bucket of gold, know for a fact that I then passed away without having sold, spent or given it away nor of traveling, you would know that bucket of gold exists and is hidden.


We are hampered by not being the first treasure hunters to investigate this matter, for the earlier fellows had access to any and all documents that were still held by the various Jesuit missions and visitas. These fellows removed what ever they wished. By at least one account, they found documentary evidence of over 200 Jesuit mines in what is today Arizona, though we have not one document of that evidence. These mines are not mentioned by the Jesuit apologists nor historians, (other than Nentvig's passing mention) though even father Segesser stated that he was in the silver mountains, where there was as much lead as silver, that he could not work the gold and silver mines do to the dangers from hostile Indians. Does father Polzer admit that San Xavier del Bac mission owned mines? Hardly! Yet father Kino himself was shown a piece of pretty green horn silver on his very first visit there, which came from the mine which later became known as la Esmerelda for the pretty green ore. Those mines of which the early treasure hunters claimed to have found documentation of, were not giant Anaconda type mines by the way, which point I would not raise except that some people are so black and white, all or nothing in their views; yet though these mines are almost certainly small by modern American standards, they are certainly more than prospects, and are exactly the sort of mines which would be suitable for the typical Mom-n-Pop small modern operation to exploit.


Cactusjumper also wrote

Roy,


"In 2010 the photographic negatives of the letters in the Arizona State Museum photo archives were digitized, which greatly facilitated the resolution of many problems of transcription and translation."


I believe one could get a copy of letter 48, in the original form.

Thanks for the suggestion, however it is not "The" point that makes or breaks the case for me. Chisels or crowbars are both useful MINING TOOLS. If it is of tantamount importance to you, then by all means please do pursue it. However the other statements in Segesser's letters, including his complaint about not being able to work the gold and silver mines so money is hard earned, I would think to be a far more weighty piece of evidence. Word games will not absolve the Jesuits amigo.


Also, I do not think those "Kino" bars are solid proof of Jesuit mining. Especially not when you can literally stand in mines they operated in Arizona and Sonora. The bars look to be pious frauds to me, however were I to find a stash of several thousand of such bars, I would not turn my nose up at them either! But considering that the king of Spain had ordered ALL religious orders to stop mining, and the mining did not stop, plus the Jesuit general had repeatedly ordered his missionaries not to be involved in commerce while they proceeded to do so very energetically, it would be rather odd to put Kino or any other Jesuit name directly on precious metal bars which would be evidence of criminal activity. Besides, the mines belong to the various mission churches and colleges, not to individual Jesuits in most cases.


One last thing here (to Joe) but the fact that a person "likes" a post of my own, has little bearing on anything. I often click on the "like" for a post that is well done, or well written, even if I completely disagree with the proposition it states. I am pretty sure that many others do the same. I do not know the proposition Deducer is attempting to prove, nor am I trying to support or disprove his statements and/or evidence. Your rather offensive statement however Joe, is a surprise and hardly conducive to constructive debate.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Thanks for the suggestion, however it is not "The" point that makes or breaks the case for me. Chisels or crowbars are both useful MINING TOOLS. If it is of tantamount importance to you, then by all means please do pursue it. However the other statements in Segesser's letters, including his complaint about not being able to work the gold and silver mines so money is hard earned, I would think to be a far more weighty piece of evidence. Word games will not absolve the Jesuits amigo."
_________________________________________________

If you read the entire letter, I believe it would be clear that Segesser wanted the files to sharpen the other tools that he was requesting......and not for the purpose of mining. The problem is, when you enter key words in your search engine, many people make unwarranted assumptions, based on certain parts of a text, rather than the whole.

This has been done with trying to marry the wish to keep the missive private, to gold or silver mining by Father Segessser. Interesting that you fail to give the same weight to his begging his family for funds.....etc. At least there, there is a direct connection to the wealth of his parrish.

My digs at deducer have more to do with where he was immediately coming from in his attitude towards me, something you yourself noticed. Despite that, I try to maintain a positive conversation going with the man.
I am no more offensive to deducer, than he has been to me.

As I have said many, many times........In the final analysis, the Jesuit Father were only men. Considering the times, and the Spaniards they found themselves shoulder to shoulder with, they were better than most.

Please keep this about the topic, and not about my personal inability to agree with your point of view here. I understand your points, but I also don't see the smoking gun leading to vast Jesuit treasures. I don't make disparaging remarks about your inability to see and agree with my viewpoint.

Your friend,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"Thanks for the suggestion, however it is not "The" point that makes or breaks the case for me. Chisels or crowbars are both useful MINING TOOLS. If it is of tantamount importance to you, then by all means please do pursue it. However the other statements in Segesser's letters, including his complaint about not being able to work the gold and silver mines so money is hard earned, I would think to be a far more weighty piece of evidence. Word games will not absolve the Jesuits amigo."
_________________________________________________

If you read the entire letter, I believe it would be clear that Segesser wanted the files to sharpen the other tools that he was requesting......and not for the purpose of mining. The problem is, when you enter key words in your search engine, many people make unwarranted assumptions, based on certain parts of a text, rather than the whole.

This has been done with trying to marry the wish to keep the missive private, to gold or silver mining by Father Segessser. Interesting that you fail to give the same weight to his begging his family for funds.....etc. At least there, there is a direct connection to the wealth of his parrish.

My digs at deducer have more to do with where he was immediately coming from in his attitude towards me, something you yourself noticed. Despite that, I try to maintain a positive conversation going with the man.
I am no more offensive to deducer, than he has been to me.

As I have said many, many times........In the final analysis, the Jesuit Father were only men. Considering the times, and the Spaniards they found themselves shoulder to shoulder with, they were better than most.

Please keep this about the topic, and not about my personal inability to agree with your point of view here. I understand your points, but I also don't see the smoking gun leading to vast Jesuit treasures. I don't make disparaging remarks about your inability to see and agree with my viewpoint.

Your friend,

Joe

Files? then I presume the baking tins must be for woodworking too? You assume that I simply used some search engine to find key words, also assuming that I did not read the entirety of the letters, which is false. I did not use any search engine on it, but read all the letters. Where exactly does Segesser beg his relatives for money? I have seen his promises to pay for the things he requests, but do not recall his asking for money. His wish list or shopping list had a variety of items not just woodworking tools needing to be sharpened. Note also that he even stated that he is in the "silver mountains" and yet has only very few silver eating utensils. Are we to presume that he meant "silver mountains" as a metaphor, as the "silvery moon"?

I DO use search engines to find single words or passages, but only to find something that I recall reading previously while reading the whole book or publication. I do not have a search engine for PDF documents which that online version of Segesser's letters is, at least not one which works.

If I thought you were not intelligent, I would never have spent this much time and effort in trying to convince you. I did not think your position about Jesuit mines and treasures was a matter of faith. However as you have now made clear exactly what it will take to change your mind, namely a found and recovered treasure, authenticated as being Jesuit in origins (exactly how this might be accomplished is not addressed) and until someone finds such a treasure and finds some way to authenticate it as having Jesuit fingerprints, any further discourse is rather pointless. Besides, even if someone found a Jesuit treasure tomorrow, I am sure that the skeptics would claim it is all a hoax and or fraud. I do understand your viewpoint, that you are 100% convinced there are no Jesuit mines nor treasures, and until a recovered treasure is proven to be Jesuit you will hold to that position. Thank you for making that clear.

I did notice a hostile attitude from Deducer toward you, which seemed to extend past our current topic, however my point was that your statement was intended to be offensive, by implying a negative connotation due to Deducer having "liked" a post of mine. I don't know the source of friction between you and Deducer and have no intention of getting into it. Or should I post similar remarks for you, perhaps liken your posts to Lamar? You are the first to take the discussion into that sort of arena rather than keeping it on topic, so to upbraid me for having raised an issue with it is rather like the pot calling the kettle black.

To All of our skeptics still believing the Jesuits innocent of all mining or accumulating wealth, read the entire thread. Or re-read it as the case may be - the question has had a number of evidences submitted. There is plenty more than what is already posted, but short of that proven Jesuit treasure which some need to see.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and anyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - as to disparaging remarks concerning a be;ief in this topic, how should one take it, for someone to say he once believed in it, <ie, fairy tales> until he learned more? <ie grew up/matured> It is akin to a condescending remark, though I have let these slide as perhaps not intended to be condescending.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I do understand your viewpoint, that you are 100% convinced there are no Jesuit mines nor treasures,.."

That is not my position at all.

Take care,

Joe