JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

Tribal Government Councils are treated as Foreign Governments by the United States Government today, this in our own country. The relationship between federally recognized tribes and the United States is one between sovereigns, i.e., between a government and a government. This “government-to-government” principle, which is grounded in the United States Constitution. For thousands of years, American Indians and Alaska Natives governed themselves through tribal laws, cultural traditions, religious customs, and kinship systems, such as clans and societies.
Indian Affairs | FAQs
the BIA states that Indians are not wards of the government yet they hold Title to the lands. The U.S. Treasury has not released the funds promised and holds the Funds in Trust.
Native Americans Today: A Biographical Dictionary - Google Books
It is not as bad as the first Europeans treated the Indians, but it continues today.

 

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[gollum]

Joe,

When you said it was illogical for the Jesuits to have temporal coadjutors run the mines, you were sooo mistaken. THAT would be the ONLY way. Since they were enjoined from "mining or having any knowledge of mining" they weren't allowed. Some don't understand just what a Temporal Coadjutor is. When a person joins the Jesuit Order, he is schooled for several years. Once they take their initial vows, they come to a fork in the road. They can take the road to becoming a Priest or become a Temporal Coadjutor. The road to becoming a priest is long and difficult. Many people can't handle all the learning involved. They don't become priests. Many people are experts or have a work specialty they are very good at. If the Order deems a person's specialty may benefit the Order, that person becomes a Temporal Coadjutor and performs their specialty to benefit the Order. If a person was a military man, politician, policeman, business owner, mine engineer, etc. That person would work in their field of experience, sending the wealth gleaned from that work to the Order. A Temporal Coadjutor is a Jesuit that has not taken their final vows, but are dedicated servants of the Order nonetheless.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

You make a compelling statement, as do others. So as history is written, under the colour of the goodness of christ the jesuits conquered and enslaved the natives taking their riches, for their own good. Such a wonderful sect of humanity.

As our mutual amigo Cactusjumper Joe wrote, it is not pure black and white; the padres would pray for the sick, helped to care for the sick, began the new idea of storing up enough food to last the year which was a new concept for nearly ALL Indians, as one American put it a century later, the "wild" Indian was a very improvident fellow, he would eat up his food fast without giving a thought to saving any for tomorrow and ended up starving for parts of the year. The Jesuits also brought cattle, sheep and horses (and mules, donkeys) which very much expanded the food base and economy of the Mission Indians, not to mention wheat, which amounted to a "second" crop for the Indians as their main crop, corn, could only be grown in summer, while wheat could be grown over the winter months. They also made some attempt to instruct the Indians, how much and how successfully is a very disputed topic of course, but also brought medicines and other "high tech" things to Indian society, including iron tools. Some of the Indian tribes actually sent messengers to ASK for padres to be given to them, to instruct them and help them, though in many cases they learned that the padres also were self-appointed masters and the Indians virtually slaves to them.

One story that struck me as indicative of the kind of situation with the padres and wild Indians was that a Jesuit priest had arrived at a mission on the frontier (in Arizona if memory serves) and in the process of his work, gave a yoke of oxen and a plow, and seed to a family of Indians so they could plow their fields and plant them with the seed. He then saw the Indians start to plow the field, get halfway across and decided they did not like that work, killed the oxen and used the plow and yokes for a cooking fire, then roasted and ate the oxen and seed corn! To me, it must have required almost limitless patience to try to "convert" such "wild" people when they could do such things, as you know oxen were not cheap and require several years training, not to mention the plow, yoke or how stupid it would be to eat up your seed that is needed to grow your food. But in this case the padre gently tried to explain to the family that they must not do that, had to find another pair of oxen, plow and yokes as well as seed for them and try again.

It is difficult to get the real story for the Jesuits and Spaniards both wrote rather biased accounts, however there are a few documents from non-Spanish visitors to the Missions during the colonial period, one was a captain Anson (English) whom visited Baja California in around 1740, and for a peek at the later Franciscan missions in upper California there are several sources, and yet even so, it is well to keep in mind that the English had a biased view of the Spanish so that may be coloring their account. To the English it appeared that the Indians were being kept in a most degrading form of slavery, having not only their physical selves under the control of the padres but even their souls, yet even so the padres and Spanish did bring benefits to the Indians as well. It is a complicated story, very interesting to read up on.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Don't believe I said any such thing. "The truth may very well lie somewhere between". May is the operative word. In truth, I believe that to be the case with many stories of the Jesuit's. As far a proselytizing goes, they did a better job than any of the Orders.

It's difficult to judge that era looking through the lens of 2014, although many still try. Things were a bit more basic back in those days. What the Jesuits did was considered the norm for treating with the Indians. When you consider that Father Kino, as well as many other missionaries, beat themselves until they bled, harsh punishment for some of the natives may be a little easier to understand.

The priests called the natives their children. The majority of the natives considered the priests as fathers. They were living in very stern times.

I would suggest you read: "Why Have You Come Here?: The Jesuits and the First Evangelization of Native America" by Nicholas Cushner.

Joe

Putting aside how the Jesuits treated themselves, as that is entirely their own business, one must question the effect of proselytism.

Although the Jesuits thought they were doing good in suppressing the native religion and beliefs, that still doesn't make it right.

Those native beliefs (and religions) had been around for thousands of years and in that regard were clearly of benefit to the Indians in that they thrived as a society.

I disagree that the majority of Indians considered the priests as fathers, considering the number of missions that were attacked and the amount of damage inflicted for example, in 1695, 1710, 1751, et al. Are you able to cite anything to support that premise?

 

[deducer]

Joe,

When you said it was illogical for the Jesuits to have temporal coadjutors run the mines, you were sooo mistaken. THAT would be the ONLY way. Since they were enjoined from "mining or having any knowledge of mining" they weren't allowed. Some don't understand just what a Temporal Coadjutor is. When a person joins the Jesuit Order, he is schooled for several years. Once they take their initial vows, they come to a fork in the road. They can take the road to becoming a Priest or become a Temporal Coadjutor. The road to becoming a priest is long and difficult. Many people can't handle all the learning involved. They don't become priests. Many people are experts or have a work specialty they are very good at. If the Order deems a person's specialty may benefit the Order, that person becomes a Temporal Coadjutor and performs their specialty to benefit the Order. If a person was a military man, politician, policeman, business owner, mine engineer, etc. That person would work in their field of experience, sending the wealth gleaned from that work to the Order. A Temporal Coadjutor is a Jesuit that has not taken their final vows, but are dedicated servants of the Order nonetheless.

Mike

I am having a little bit of trouble with the concept of the coadjutor, and the role they played in facilitating the Jesuit mission in the New World.

Would you be able to identify an actual person that served as a coadjutor in 18th century Pimeria Alta?

 

[sailaway]

The story oro told made me think of this painting.
Visions of Yesterday Oil Painting Print Vintage Art POSTCARD Wm William R Leigh - Ad#: 2197730 - Addoway
Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish: Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe), also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe (Spanish: Virgen de Guadalupe). Official Catholic accounts state that on the morning of December 9, 1531, Juan Diego saw an apparition of a young girl on a hill. Speaking to him in Nahuatl, the girl asked that a church be built at that site in her honor. Diego told his story to the Spanish Archbishop of Mexico City, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, who instructed him to return to the hill, and ask the "lady" for a miraculous sign to prove her identity. The Virgin told Juan Diego to gather flowers from the top of the hill. Although December was very late in the growing season for flowers to bloom, Juan Diego found Castilian roses, not native to Mexico, on the normally barren hilltop. The Virgin arranged these in his peasant cloak or tilma. When Juan Diego opened his cloak before Bishop Zumárraga on December 12, the flowers fell to the floor, and on the fabric was the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe. the earliest account of the apparition, the Nican Mopohua, written in the Nahuatl language around 1556, the Virgin Mary tells Juan Bernardino, the uncle of Juan Diego, that the image left on the tilma is to be known by the name "the Perfect Virgin, Holy Mary of Guadalupe."
In his 1675 work Felicidad de Mexico, Becerra Tanco claimed that Juan Bernardino and Juan Diego would not have been able to understand the name Guadalupe because the "d" and "g" sounds do not exist in Nahuatl. He proposed two Nahuatl alternative names that sound similar to "Guadalupe", Tecuatlanopeuh [tekʷat͡ɬaˈnopeʍ], "she whose origins were in the rocky summit", and Tecuantlaxopeuh [tekʷant͡ɬaˈʃopeʍ], "she who banishes those who devoured us." Ondina and Justo Gonzalez suggest that the name is a Spanish version of the Nahuatl term, Coātlaxopeuh [koaːt͡ɬaˈʃopeʍ], meaning “the one who crushes the serpent,” and that it may be referring to the feathered serpent Quetzalcoatl. In addition, Mary was portrayed in European art as crushing the serpent of the Garden of Eden.
The first extended account of the image and apparitions was reported in Imagen de la Virgen Maria, Madre de Dios de Guadalupe, published in 1648 by Miguel Sánchez, a diocesan priest of Mexico City. Luis Lasso de la Vega wrote a 36-page tract in Nahuatl language, Huei tlamahuiçoltica ("The Great Event"), which was published in 1649 and is similar to Sánchez's narrative. This tract contains Nican mopohua ("Here it is recounted"), a text about the Virgin which contains the story of the apparitions and the supernatural origin of the image. The sections: Nican motecpana ("Here is an ordered account"), describes 14 miracles connected with Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Nican tlantica ("Here ends"), gives an account of the Virgin in New Spain
In 1666 the Church, with the intention of establishing a feast day in the name of Juan Diego, began gathering information from people who reported having known him. In 1723 a formal investigation into his life was ordered. In 1995, Father Xavier Escalada, a Jesuit writing an encyclopedia of the Guadalupan legend, produced a deer-skin codex, (Codex Escalada), which illustrated an account of the vision and the life and death of Juan Diego. the document was dated 1548, within the lifetime of those who had known Juan Diego. It bore the signatures of two respected 16th-century scholar-priests, Antonio Valeriano and Bernardino de Sahagún.
Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe is recognized as a symbol of Catholic Mexicans. Miguel Sánchez, the author of the first Spanish language account of the vision, identified Guadalupe as Revelation's Woman of the Apocalypse. In 1999, the Church officially proclaimed her the Patroness of the Americas, the Empress of Latin America, and the Protectress of Unborn Children. Hernán Cortés, the Conquistador who overthrew the Aztec empire in 1521, was a native of Extremadura, home to Our Lady of Guadalupe.
in 1929 and 1951 photographers found a figure reflected in the Virgin's eyes; upon inspection they said that the reflection was tripled in what is called the Purkinje effect, commonly found in human eyes. An ophthalmologist, Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, later enlarged an image of the Virgin's eyes by 2500x and claimed to have found not only the aforementioned single figure, but images of all the witnesses present when the tilma was first revealed before Zumárraga in 1531, plus a small family group of mother, father, and a group of children, in the center of the Virgin's eyes, fourteen people in all.
Our Lady of Guadalupe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Infosponge]

Would you be able to identify an actual person that served as a coadjutor in 18th century Pimeria Alta?

Good evening Deducer,

I have the entire list of Coadjutor's, as well as everyone else associated with the Society of Jesus at the time of the expulsion. Please see #210, in the following catalog:









Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[deducer]

Very interesting, thank you.

What I think would be interesting is if we could somehow get a list of coadjutor names and research them one by one, and see if any (or how many) of them have mining backgrounds or even training in mining, or metal refinement.

Looks like there are two types of coadjutors, the temporal and the Esp.?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Here is an interesting take on the society of jesus:

Extreme Oath of the Jesuits

"When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colors, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM, NECAR, REGES, IMPIOUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers. Upon the floor is a red cross at which the postulant or candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the postulant:"

Superior:
My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant, and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.

You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace. To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.

You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death.

You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labors with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved." Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me---
“I, ______ now, in the presence of Almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven, and to you, my ghostly father, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola in the Pontificate of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear, that his holiness the Pope is Christ's Vice-regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by virtue of the keys of binding and loosing, given to his Holiness by my Savior, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths and governments, all being illegal without his sacred confirmation and that they may safely be destroyed. Therefore, to the utmost of my power I shall and will defend this doctrine of his Holiness' right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the now pretended authority and churches of England and Scotland, and branches of the same now established in Ireland and on the Continent of America and elsewhere; and all adherents in regard that they be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now renounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or state named Protestants or Liberals, or obedience to any of the laws, magistrates or officers.

I do further declare that the doctrine of the churches of England and Scotland, of the Calvinists, Huguenots and others of the name Protestants or Liberals to be damnable and they themselves damned who will not forsake the same.
I do further declare, that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of his Holiness' agents in any place wherever I shall be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland or America, or in any other Kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my uttermost to extirpate the heretical Protestants or Liberals' doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, regal or otherwise.

I do further promise and declare, that notwithstanding I am dispensed with, to assume my religion heretical, for the propaganda of the Mother Church's interest, to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they may entrust me and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstance whatever; but to execute all that shall be proposed, given in charge or discovered unto me, by you, my ghostly father, or any of this sacred covenant.

I do further promise and declare, that I will have no opinion or will of my own, or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the Militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ.

That I may go to any part of the world withersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions of the North, the burning sands of the desert of Africa, or the jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America, without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever communicated to me.

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

In confirmation of which, I hereby dedicate my life, my soul and all my corporal powers, and with this dagger which I now receive, I will subscribe my name written in my own blood, in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the Militia of the Pope cut off my hands and my feet, and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulfur burned therein, with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul be tortured by demons in an eternal hell forever!

All of which, I, _______, do swear by the Blessed Trinity and blessed Sacraments, which I am now to receive, to perform and on my part to keep inviolable; and do call all the heavenly and glorious host of heaven to witness the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, and witness the same further with my name written and with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and sealed in the face of this holy covenant."

(He receives the wafer from the Superior and writes his name with the point of his dagger dipped in his own blood taken from over his heart.)

Superior:
"You will now rise to your feet and I will instruct you in the Catechism necessary to make yourself known to any member of the Society of Jesus belonging to this rank.

In the first place, you, as a Brother Jesuit, will with another mutually make the ordinary sign of the cross as any ordinary Roman Catholic would; then one cross his wrists, the palms of his hands open, and the other in answer crosses his feet, one above the other; the first points with forefinger of the right hand to the center of the palm of the left, the other with the forefinger of the left hand points to the center of the palm of the right; the first then with his right hand makes a circle around his head, touching it; the other then with the forefinger of his left hand touches the left side of his body just below his heart; the first then with his right hand draws it across the throat of the other, and the latter then with a dagger down the stomach and abdomen of the first. The first then says Iustum; and the other answers Necar; the first Reges. The other answers Impious." (The meaning of which has already been explained.) "The first will then present a small piece of paper folded in a peculiar manner, four times, which the other will cut longitudinally and on opening the name Jesu will be found written upon the head and arms of a cross three times. You will then give and receive with him the following questions and answers:

Question -From whither do you come?
Answer - The Holy faith.

Q. -Whom do you serve?
A. -The Holy Father at Rome, the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church Universal throughout the world.

Q. -Who commands you?
A. -The Successor of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Q. -Who received you?
A. -A venerable man in white hair.

Q. -How?
A. -With a naked dagger, I kneeling upon the cross beneath the banners of the Pope and of our sacred order.

Q. -Did you take an oath?
A. -I did, to destroy heretics and their governments and rulers, and to spare neither age, sex nor condition. To be as a corpse without any opinion or will of my own, but to implicitly obey my Superiors in all things without hesitation of murmuring.

Q. -Will you do that?
A. -I will.

Q. -How do you travel?
A. -In the bark of Peter the fisherman.

Q. -Whither do you travel?
A. -To the four quarters of the globe.

Q. -For what purpose?
A. -To obey the orders of my general and Superiors and execute the will of the Pope and faithfully fulfill the conditions of my oaths.

Q. -Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated."

Pope and Patriarch Teochist
May 8, 1999. — Pope meet with Orthodox Patriarch Teochist in Romania. This Orthodox Patriarch is your typical Jesuit in disguise. . . . While the Vatican is bombing his brothers . . . he is urging unity with Rome!!!
Editor's Notes

President Clinton is a graduate of Jesuit Georgetown University in Wash., D.C. We don't know if he took this oath but he manifests all the characteristics of a well trained Jesuit.

This oath is taken from the book Subterranean Rome by Carlos Didier, translated from the French and published in New York in 1843. Dr. Alberto Rivera escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, and he describes his Jesuit oath in exactly the same way as it appears in this book. Semper idem: always the same.

The Jesuit Oath of Induction is also recorded in the Congressional Record of the U.S.A. House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913, pp. 3215-321

Oh my!

 

[cactusjumper]

Oh my indeed!

I believe it's a complete fabrication.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Oh my indeed!

I believe it's a complete fabrication.

Joe Ribaudo

Are you able to prove that?

 

[sailaway]

I posted the same as ConceptualizedNetherlandr some time back. The source was from the text of the Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction as recorded in the Journals of the 62nd Congress, 3rd Session, of the United States Congressional Record (House Calendar No. 397, Report No. 1523, 15 February, 1913, pp. 3215-3216)
Joe do you think the U.S. Government got it wrong?
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit
deducer, Esp. is the abbreviation for Spanish. (Espainia)

 

[cactusjumper]

Are you able to prove that?

deducer,

Great question! Are you able to prove that it isn't?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

I posted the same as ConceptualizedNetherlandr some time back. The source was from the text of the Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction as recorded in the Journals of the 62nd Congress, 3rd Session, of the United States Congressional Record (House Calendar No. 397, Report No. 1523, 15 February, 1913, pp. 3215-3216)
Joe do you think the U.S. Government got it wrong?
EIPS - The Jesuit Oath Exposed
deducer, Esp. is the abbreviation for Spanish. (Espainia)

sailaway,

Our government get something wrong, heaven forbid. Serious answer.....Yes!

http://kmerian.blogspot.com/2008/02/once-and-for-all.html

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Side point my steak robber, Joe, coffee? Can 'you' prove that the data ( Jesuit oath ) entered in the Congressional Record was incorrect?

Jose

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Great question! Are you able to prove that it isn't?

Joe Ribaudo

No need to be facetious.

You are the one casting aspersions, so the burden of proof is on you.

If you can't show that the oath is a complete fabrication, then what you said is merely your opinion.

 

[cactusjumper]

No need to be facetious.

You are the one casting aspersions, so the burden of proof is on you.

If you can't show that the oath is a complete fabrication, then what you said is merely your opinion.

deducer,

Now I will cast an aspersion.......You need to get a new dictionary. My statement was that I "believed" it was a complete fabrication. That statement does not require any kind of proof, as it is obviously an opinion. Even so, I did provide a link.

My question was no more "facetious" than your question to me.

The document that you speak of, is no longer in the Congressional Record. Perhaps they found out it was a false story.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[UncleMatt]

But are we to assume the way things are done today exactly mirrors the way it was done hundreds of years ago?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Has the mission changed?

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Now I will cast an aspersion.......You need to get a new dictionary. My statement was that I "believed" it was a complete fabrication. That statement does not require any kind of proof, as it is obviously an opinion. Even so, I did provide a link.

My question was no more "facetious" than your question to me.

The document that you speak of, is no longer in the Congressional Record. Perhaps they found out it was a false story.

Joe Ribaudo

You did use the word "believe," but the tone of your email suggests that you are beyond believing.

The fact that it doesn't exist doesn't mean it was not there in the first place. Nobody seems to be able to prove anything either way, whether such a document exist or if the report even exists, so probably a dead end inquiry.