Know anything about the San Augustin wreck near drakes bay?

[cuzcosquirrel]

I think I found a piece of beeswax today. School starts soon, and this was a good way to end it.





I resisted the temptation to carve "67" into it.

I think I also found the base of one of the target towers from when Limantnour was a dive bombing range. Here's a bullet:



I read through the excerpt from Mr. Marx's book and found it interesting. I believe that perhaps because of the choppy weather this year, a lot of stuff is coming up off the bottom. If I get a call from the Point Reyes director, I'm going to give them the information on the stuff I've seen. I got a used copy of Archaeological Evidence of Sebastian Rodri­guez Cermeno's California Visit in 1595 by Robert Fleming Heizer today.

Can anyone identifly this for me? I think it may be raw gutta-percha washed up from the wreck.

 

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[Jazzonic]

I grew up in Marin and have always been fascinated by this wreck my whole life. Based on the sherds that occassionally wash up (which one of this site's vistors has done a commendable job of documenting and then handing to the NPS) everybody knows it's right there. But pathetically little has been done by the both the NPS and state governments to excavate. They've magged it and know where it is, but I imagine the principal problem is funding. It's in shallow water and rough surf and buried, and visibility is often near zero. For a marine archeologist the conditions are formidable, and some serious creativity and money would be required to do it right. And yes, it should be done right. As far as I know, this is the best chance to excavate an MG off California. It's one of kind, and every piece of it belongs in a museum.

That said, the govt has been dragging its ass on this one far too long. How many sherds have to wash up before the bureaucrats move? Point Reyes National Seashore gets thousands of visitors a year, and if tourists haul their butts all the way out there to see grey whales, I'll bet they'd pay another seven bucks to see galleon artifacts in a museum while they're there. I don't see why a private operator couldn't be allowed to partner with the govt in an archeologist run excavation that would include museum profit shares. In the long run, selling tickets is more profitable than selling artifacts, and its probably not only the right way to go but the only way. The govt will never excavate this wreck on its own, and they'll never let a private outfit do it on their own, and so all the rest of us ever see are sherds...until they stop washing up. This damn stalmate has to end. We have a freakin' manilla galleon that we know is there and based on the surf artifacts we sure as hell know it's not stabilized. Let's bring it up already before it's too late!

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

I feel a little funny about picking stuff up, but I'm not sure anyone else would do it. I partially agree with you about it. The stuff I picked up had come in with the tide. Some of it is in pretty good shape. If it is not picked up, it either rusts out and deteriorates or floats back out on the next tide. I'm sure a lot of people know it is there and go along and pick up stuff and just take it home. There is a lot of potential sitting there and I think, man, this is kind of a waste. You have to realize I picked up some stuff that had probably been there for a few years, and no one had picked it up because they didn't care or know what it was.

Manila galleons are pretty cool in my book. They are the final link to Asia for the Spanish, and were one of the hardest navigation routes from the east to west. There are a couple of these wrecked on the pacific coast. There is the one at Nehalem and one at Ensenada, and one wrecked off the Catalina Islands. These boats never managed to directly carry all the spices like the Spanish wanted, but did manage to freight a lot of silk and textiles to Mexico, and a lot of cermaic plates and bowls.

One of the things I took away from reading Robert Heizer's 1941 report is that Heizer dug through about half a dozen Indian middens just to find a few ship nails and plate fragments. He was pretty wasteful of any other information the sites could have provided. Why didn't he just go down to the beach and look for stuff like I did? He does have a great narrative of it:

In 1590, Lois de Velasco took over as viceroy of New Spain and immediately took steps to make the route between the Phillipines and New Spain more effective. He requested a Cedula authorizing him to send a vessel to scout out safe harbors on the Pacific coast. In October 1593, he was granted permission to do this. Later in 1594, the King ordered that the mission be undertaken. A Portugese, Sebastian Cermeno, was allowed to make the voyage, and carry a specified tonnage of goods to make a profit for himself for his troubles.

He left Acapulco in March, 1594 in the San Pedro, a ship provided by the Spanish crown. At Manila, he switch ships and returned in the San Augustin, a ship of about 200 tons with 140 tons of freight and a crew of 70 men. He sailed from Cavite for Acapulco. In November, they sighted point Saint George or Rocky Point. As they traveled south, many fires were seen on the shore. They attempted to enter Trinidad Bay, but an unfavorable wind made them abort the attempt.

On November 6, 1595, they rounded Point Reyes and entered the bay. Many indians came to the beach. One paddled out to the ship on a boat made of reeds and they gave him some silk, cloth, and a red cap. The next day four more appeared and they were given gifts also. Cermeno then took 22 men and went ashore. He landed near an indian village and took possesion of the land for the King of Spain and named the bay, "La Bahia De San Francisco."

After scouting the bluff above Drake's Estero, and meeting a group of indians who surrendered to them, they returned to the shore and began to build the boat, a "viroco" they had brought over from the Phillipines. On November 15, Cermeno went up the estero with nine other men with arms in the boat, to explore it and visit the many indian villages they saw along the estero shoreline. Late in November, the San Augustin was lost during a strong shore gale that drove it aground. When they returned to the camp, a short battle began over wood that the indians were trying to haul away from the shore.

Cermeno gathered up some food, things from the wreckage, and headed for the Faralon Islands in the viroco, which are just visible from the hills above Drakes Bay on a really clear day. He finally reached Chachala, in New Spain, after finding Monterey Bay and San Luis Obispo Bay. At one point they were so hungry during the trip that they ate the dog they had with them. At another point, they ate a dead shark or whale they found on a beach.

None of the cargo was brought back. There was probably a point to this. The insurers in Manila would not pay off the loss if it was only a partial loss. Partially wrecked manila galleons were sometimes burned to accomplish this. Francisco de Bolanos, who had been a sailor with Cermeno, was later the chief pilot of Vizcano's capitana, the San Diego in 1603. Vizcano interviewed a group of indians on the coast who brought out two pieces of silk they had been given by Cermeno and stated about where they thought the wreck had taken place. When they entered Drakes Bay, plans were made to search for the wax and silk which had formed the cargo of the San Augustin. Anxiety over the the accompanying frigata, the Tres Reyes, prevented the search, and the capitana sailed on without putting out a landing party.

Looking at pictures, the estero mouth was further east in 1940.

Old mast:



This I think is just a rib board off a small fishing vessel circa 1920 now. It is submerged to the west of the estero and pieces of it have been coming in to shore recently. I also have a picture of a cross beam and some spikes that were part of a rib section going across this boat. There was a fishing dock in the area at one time and the Russians hunted otter in the bay for awhile.



Part of a cobalt blue glass plate. They stopped importing this in 1650, probably because they learned how to produce it in Europe. It is really much darker than this. Got to go retrieve it soon and turn it in to the park.

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

Is anybody doing any research on this ship this year?

Is anyone willing to say anything about the east beach area and how they think things got there?

Interesting article I found.

http://www.morganscove.com/Jim Campbell/agustin.pdf

Does anybody want to comment on "sank one quarter mile off shore," and "40 feet of water and 30 feet of mud?"

Reply with:

Hot if you think Campbell is right

Warm if he is partially right

Cold if he is not right

 

[Salvor6]

Squirrel, the San Augustin will never be salvaged. The state cannot afford it (California is bankrupt) and the state archaeologist would rather see it rot away than turn salvage over to a private company.

 

[mariner]

Salvor6,

Some people will not like this suggestion, but California does not have title to the San Agustin, because it is a Spanish shipwreck in US waters, and therefore covered by the 1902 Treaty with Spain. I suspect that Cermeno either owned the ship, or leased it from somebody who did. It was not a Manila galleon in the conventional sense, but a ship that Cermeno used to satisfy a request from the ViceRoy of Mexico to explore that part of the coast in order to find a suitable place for the Manila Galleons to stop en route and replenish their wood, water and food supplies.

If it was privately owned, then the wreck belongs to the current legal heir to Cermeno, or whoever he leased the ship from. It might not be all that difficult to trace the current heir, but you won't know that until somebody tries. Of course, then you can expect quite a legal battle with California, because States don't like to admit thay do not have ownerships of old wrecks in their waters.

In the absence of an ability to identify and trace the current owner, then I think that Spain would be able to claim the wreck and give permission for it to be salvaged, though I don't think they would do so for a profit making entity.

Good luck to anybody with the time, fortitude and funds to undertake this task.

Mariner

ps: Our old friend Cornelius says he knows where the wreck is, having found it several years before Marx claimed to have done so.

 

[Salvor6]

Mariner, those are just more reasons why the San Agustin will never be saved.

 

[mariner]

Salvor6,

I agree with you, which is why I have never bothered to try tracing the descendents of Cermeno, even though I am interested in the San Agustin. Even if the ship was not his, I think the cargo would have been. Incidentally, I think that a lot of the so-called information about the location of the wreck is highly suspect. I can't remember ever seeing anything about the manifest of the San Agustin. For example, I think it highly unlikely that there would have been any silver on board. Demand for silver came from China. I don't know of any evidence that there was gold aboard. Probably most of the cargo was beeswax and silks. The silks would have all rotted. There was undoubtedly some porcelain on board, but how much, who knows?

I think that the story about the Indians showing Vizcaino some pieces of silk and telling him where the wreck was is just that, a story. From memory, I think that according to Vizcaino's diary, two Indians approached his ship in separate canoes and indicated that they wanted him to land, but the wind was favorable and he sailed away without landing, or without the Indians coming aboard.

Mariner

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

There is an area near the old service road ending that has the beach area and dune cut salted with pennies and nickles. It is also the area where the practice bombs are sticking out of the sand in places. This is the area I am talking about.

I'm pretty sure the wreck of this ship was completely covered by royal reimbursement.

It seems the silk that Vizcano saw that the indians showed him was seen and traded by Ceremeno further down the coast of California for food when he was heading south after the wreck. It was not seen at Drake's Bay.

I was wondering if this area was that place Marx operated from as his starting point. Clearly, there are a lot of people walking over this area and looking for stuff. I found a couple fragments of pottery, the wax, as well as the maravedis coin in the area. I was wondering if anybody was willing to say anything regarding it. No, I don't think the wreck is there.

 

[mariner]

I'm pretty sure the wreck of this ship was completely covered by royal reimbursement.

cs:

And your basis for saying this? It would have been very unusual for the Government to reimburse a private merchant for his losses. He was asked to undertake a search, and in return was given the right to carry out some personal trading. I would be amazed if the Government had reimbursed him. It would also have been pretty unusual for his ship and cargo to be insured. The Spanish Government could not find private individuals to provide ships for the arduous Manila Galleon route, which is why they were nearly all Government-owned. It is possible that Cermeno managed to find some investors, but if so, I am not aware of any evidence of this.

Also, the Indians who showed Vizcaino the two pieces of silk in 1602 were on Santa Catalina Island, down near Santa Barbara, and they explained that they got them from a ship that was then driven ashore a little along the island. The Indians offered to show them the wreck and set off to do so in canoes, but a head-wind prevented Vizcaino from following them, and so he gave up the attempt to find the wreck. Other Indians told them about men with clothes like his and with beards, presumably survivors of the wreck, but Vizcaino decided not to go in search of them, but to continue on his voyage since it was getting cold and winter was coming on.

There has been considerable discussion over the years about the identity of this wreck, but it is absolutely certain that it was not the San Agustin. However, it shows how loose research or second hand info can get to be associated with the wrong historical event.

Nevertheless, I wish you every luck with your project.

Mariner

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

If you read through Schurz, you will see him mention some galleon losses, and that the Obras groups were paid back through the royal situado.

Well, thanks anyway for the input.

I finally talked with one of the staff people there and they stated that they do not remove things themselves. They simply photograph stuff they see. They referred me to their field archeologist and their volunteer programs at the park.

 

[mariner]

CS,

Thanks. I will have another look at Schurz's book.

Mariner