LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[Hal Croves]

Thanks Joe,
Victor

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

Would you like me to recommend a good college?

CN, stop the insults and talking down to other members.



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Hal Croves]

Science is often proven wrong especially when it comes to the age of deposits etc... Even Gold deposits in some theory's form a lot faster than the thousands or millions of years science assumes...watched some pretty interesting lectures about the relation to fault lines and mineral deposits...we just don't understand enough about what is really happening

The right combination of sediment could easily form a thick hard crust over a matter of a few years imo...especially as violent as some of the monsoon foods can be...

Ok, but in order for that to happen, there would need to be or, have been, a source (the parent material) from which to leech out the calcium carbonate. This would need to be an open scar or erosion located above the mound and washed down by your monsoon rains. Unfortunately, it just doesn't exist at the site which, is why the raw materials were hauled there from a remote location.

Something else to explain. How long in your opinion would it take to dissolve an organic material like bees wax if it were encased in calcium carbonate? Would it have survived a thousand years? What would it look like after thirty? It is a sincere question as I don't know the answer yet.

 

[sdcfia]

Regarding the Tucson artifacts - I don't have much of an opinion because I haven't looked into the subject much. My take on this is to be cautious about using "science" to drive your arguments.

Carbon dating is a controversial subject once you stray beyond the dogmatic stance. Anatoly Fomenko, the Russian mathematician, is probably the highest profile infidel/devil - History: Fiction or Science? Dating methods as offered by mathematical statistics. Eclipses and zodiacs. Chronology Vol.I: Anatoly Fomenko, Franck Tamdhu, Polina Zinoviev: 9782913621077: Amazon.com: Books - but by no means is he the only one to call into question the reliability of this scientific protocol. Below is a quick smattering of typical problems. If you wish to spend more than two minutes, I'm sure you can collect hundreds of similar "error messages":

"When the blood of a seal, freshly killed at McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by carbon-14, it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago."
From W. Dort Jr., Ph.D. -- Geology, Professor, University of Kansas

"The hair on the Chekurovka mammoth was found to have a carbon-14 age of 26,000 years but the peaty soil in which it was preserved was found to have a carbon-14 dating of only 5,600 years."
From "Dry bones and other fossils,” by Dr. Gary Parker

"Scientists got dates of 164 million and 3 billion years for two Hawaiian lava flows. But these lava flows happened only about 200 years ago in 1800 and 1801.
From “Radiocarbon Journal, Vol. 8, 1966.”

"The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of the snails of Melanoides tuberculatus living today in artesian springs in southern Nevada indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years."
From “Science, vol 224 (1984) 58-6”, Alan C. Riggs

"In the light what is known about the radiocarbon method and the way it is used, it is truly astonishing that many authors will cite agreeable determinations as a "proof" for their beliefs. The implications of pervasive contamination and ancient variations in carbon-14 levels are steadfastly ignored by those who based their argument upon the dates. The radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates.

’This whole blessed thing is nothing but 13th-century alchemy, and it all depends upon which funny paper you read’."
From “Radiocarbon: Ages in Error, Anthropological Journal of Canada”, Robert E. Lee

Etc.

[Of course Fomenko's carbon dating opinions support his equally heretic work on historical chronology - the Jesuit groupies here might be interested in what he has to say about that, vis-a-vis Dionysius Petavius.]

 

[StreamlineGold]

OK. Then what happened?

Started a business and became a success....lol. Pretty weak attempt at a cheap shot because you can't handle the debate.

 

[StreamlineGold]

Regarding the Tucson artifacts - I don't have much of an opinion because I haven't looked into the subject much. My take on this is to be cautious about using "science" to drive your arguments.

Carbon dating is a controversial subject once you stray beyond the dogmatic stance. Anatoly Fomenko, the Russian mathematician, is probably the highest profile infidel/devil - History: Fiction or Science? Dating methods as offered by mathematical statistics. Eclipses and zodiacs. Chronology Vol.I: Anatoly Fomenko, Franck Tamdhu, Polina Zinoviev: 9782913621077: Amazon.com: Books - but by no means is he the only one to call into question the reliability of this scientific protocol. Below is a quick smattering of typical problems. If you wish to spend more than two minutes, I'm sure you can collect hundreds of similar "error messages":

"When the blood of a seal, freshly killed at McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by carbon-14, it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago."
From W. Dort Jr., Ph.D. -- Geology, Professor, University of Kansas

"The hair on the Chekurovka mammoth was found to have a carbon-14 age of 26,000 years but the peaty soil in which it was preserved was found to have a carbon-14 dating of only 5,600 years."
From "Dry bones and other fossils,” by Dr. Gary Parker

"Scientists got dates of 164 million and 3 billion years for two Hawaiian lava flows. But these lava flows happened only about 200 years ago in 1800 and 1801.
From “Radiocarbon Journal, Vol. 8, 1966.”

"The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of the snails of Melanoides tuberculatus living today in artesian springs in southern Nevada indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years."
From “Science, vol 224 (1984) 58-6”, Alan C. Riggs

"In the light what is known about the radiocarbon method and the way it is used, it is truly astonishing that many authors will cite agreeable determinations as a "proof" for their beliefs. The implications of pervasive contamination and ancient variations in carbon-14 levels are steadfastly ignored by those who based their argument upon the dates. The radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates.

’This whole blessed thing is nothing but 13th-century alchemy, and it all depends upon which funny paper you read’."
From “Radiocarbon: Ages in Error, Anthropological Journal of Canada”, Robert E. Lee

Etc.

[Of course Fomenko's carbon dating opinions support his equally heretic work on historical chronology - the Jesuit groupies here might be interested in what he has to say about that, vis-a-vis Dionysius Petavius.]

Yep thank you.

Funny how it's regarded as the golden rule for dating..even when proven flawed....
Any time evidence might suggest a created world not a billion year old planet it's immediately dismissed...I wish they would say they just don't really know.

 

[markmar]

Hal

You wrote : " How long in your opinion would it take to dissolve an organic material like bees wax if it were encased in calcium carbonate? "


From what we know from the Bent's work , the beeswax was found inside the artifacts and none was on the exterior ( regardless of whether the " scientists " at the University managed to lose it ) . The wax was used to preserve the interior of the artifacts and their messages as long as possible .
Why to use this type of preservation if the artifacts had been created in the 1890`s and simply dumped at the site ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal

You wrote : " How long in your opinion would it take to dissolve an organic material like bees wax if it were encased in calcium carbonate? "


From what we know from the Bent's work , the beeswax was found inside the artifacts and none was on the exterior ( regardless of whether the " scientists " at the University managed to lose it ) . The wax was used to preserve the interior of the artifacts and their messages as long as possible .
Why to use this type of preservation if the artifacts had been created in the 1890`s and simply dumped at the site ?

You think the beeswax was INSIDE the lead artifacts, to preserve the interior? May I ask why you think that is the case? I would have thought the presence of the wax was simply due to the makers of the artifacts using the wax process, so the melted wax ended up mixed in the lead as happens with the wax casting process. Could the wax just be from the original molds being made of wax, that got melted into the lead on casting? I don't see the reason to have wax INSIDE the artifacts, to "preserve" the interior, which obviously would not be exposed to any kind of weathering process until and when the outside had broken, decomposed or otherwise made the interior exposed. Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal

You wrote : " How long in your opinion would it take to dissolve an organic material like bees wax if it were encased in calcium carbonate? "


From what we know from the Bent's work , the beeswax was found inside the artifacts and none was on the exterior ( regardless of whether the " scientists " at the University managed to lose it ) . The wax was used to preserve the interior of the artifacts and their messages as long as possible .
Why to use this type of preservation if the artifacts had been created in the 1890`s and simply dumped at the site ?

Marius,

Where did you find your copy of the Bent Manuscript? As far as I know, the waxy substance has never been confirmed as to what kind of wax it was. It was found between two crosses that had been riveted together.

I was told that the same kind of wax could be found at the bottom of the heart I found. Nothing of the sort was factual.

IMHO, it's a good story, and nothing more.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

My mistake . I meant , how the wax was inside the cement with the artifacts and nowhere else around in the soil . So , the wax was there to preserve the artifacts in their first good shape .

Covey in his work " Calalus " , page 74 , wrote :

" Pried apart, the smooth inner surfaces of the halves were smeared with a half-pound of stinking wax (which Manier saved in a jar which he turned over to the university for analysis; a student threw it out ) . "

Bent in his work says the same , with more detail and made it clear the wax was applied to the artifacts and were not a part of the making of the artifacts.

 

[markmar]

Joe

You are sure how that stinking wax could be find at the bottom of your alleged " heart " ?
Because one bird told me how the wax was animal fat .
Who had interest to hide this information ?
Oh , but I know ... is hard to rewrite the History . Is hard to break the Matrix .

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

You are sure how that stinking wax could be find at the bottom of your alleged " heart " ?
Because one bird told me how the wax was animal fat .
Who had interest to hide this information ?
Oh , but I know ... is hard to rewrite the History . Is hard to break the Matrix .

Marius,

Around 40-50 years ago I laid out the Stone Maps on a Topographic map.......without ever being in that location.
Around 2004-5 I found this [alleged " heart "?].

It is at the end of the trail which is worn into bedrock:


In the ensuing years I explored the area of the Stone Map Trail. My last trip into the mountains was in 2004.


Can you show us a picture of the real heart? With your experience in the mountains, can you explain why you label my heart as "alleged"?

Many thanks and good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

I am sorry . I told this to tease you . I wanted to put little oil in the fire .
I respect your research and what you believe is the right " heart " .

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

I am sorry . I told this to tease you . I wanted to put little oil in the fire .
I respect your research and what you believe is the right " heart " .

Marius,

I am, somewhat, less than sharp these days. Going in tomorrow to have the back of my skull punctured to drain off some fluid that has been building up. Have been walking with a cane lately as my balance is hard to maintain. Too many hikes into the Supe's with 80# backpacks over the years has made a few problems with my spine. In other words, I'm just getting too old.

Many people have stated my heart outcropping looks nothing like a heart. I admit to being a little touchy on that but it's really no big deal.

Hope all is well with you and your family.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Sadly to hear how you are not in a very good shape . I wish you sincerely quick recovery !
And for your age ... come on ! Waltz was older when he hiked last time to his famous mine .

And , the pictures from what I believe is the real heart ...
When you will feel better and you will go to find the LDM , and when you will find it , just look across over three canyons and you will see it's outcropping over and around the fourth canyon . And after go there and take your own pictures .

 

[Oroblanco]

Ditto to Joe, take care of yourself and get better soon! Don't make me come there to drag you to the doctors! Seriously buddy do take care, get to the doc and try to follow their orders as best you can, some of us want to keep you around a while.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen......and Roy,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I fear you may be outnumbered by the other side. I can live quite well with that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Gentlemen......and Roy,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I fear you may be outnumbered by the other side. I can live quite well with that.

Take care,

Joe

Ah being outnumbered has never bothered me - heck in the old prison days, it was nothing to be outnumbered fifty to one! (Not exaggerating on that either!) so we can handle the other side easily. Just don't fool around about this thing buddy, that can get very serious very fast, it is nothing to put off thinking it will "go away". Catch it now and from what I understand, that should have a positive effect on other aspects of your health that would seem to be unrelated, but are. Besides, there are maybe one or two of those fellows on that other side, that might try to do something like watering the flowers on your grave, only not with water! So don't fool around buddy and if there is anything we can do just say the word.
Roy

 

[sgtfda]

Best wishes Joe. Our prayers are with you.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

You wrote : " How long in your opinion would it take to dissolve an organic material like bees wax if it were encased in calcium carbonate? "


From what we know from the Bent's work , the beeswax was found inside the artifacts and none was on the exterior ( regardless of whether the " scientists " at the University managed to lose it ) . The wax was used to preserve the interior of the artifacts and their messages as long as possible .
Why to use this type of preservation if the artifacts had been created in the 1890`s and simply dumped at the site ?

"With a bulk density of 35 to 58 lb/cu ft (443-734 kg/cu m), it is a sluggish adhesive powder that readily packs and cakes. It does, however, respond to aeration and direct contact vibration."


"Calcium carbonate is an extremely tricky material to move. Its density is not always indicative of its flow properties. Some grades of calcium carbonate may pack easily and be hard to convey, while others will flow more easily, but tend to fluidize."


Flexicon
BULK HANDLING EQUIPMENT & SYSTEMS




Markmar,


These are characteristics of calcium carbonate in bulk form. As you can see, its a material that compacts or compresses easily. It is not difficult to imagine the objects being abandoned or buried in a mound of this mix. Again, thirty years of rain and the occasional monsoon would explain the conditions found at the abandon lime kilns. If this scenario is correct, the objects were not actually "encrusted" in material, they were encapsulated.


There is a difference. A 1200 year old object might truly be encrusted in a thin, calcic horizon (chemical reactions over time) but a 30 year old object might really only be encapsulated. An encapsulated object might be fairly easy to clean as opposed to an encrusted object which might require some professional or chemical (acid) cleaning process.


Remember, after the first object was found, it was taken home and "washed". Washed is something that just doesn't sit well with me. Is it possible that a lead object, encrusted in caliche for 1200 years, could simply be washed clean? It seems that there should have been corrosion to the surface, or pitting, or almost quasi permeant adhesion of caliche to the objects surface if they were truly "encrusted". A few of the objects appear to have this weathered or textured surface however, that can be explained by their manufacturing process. I honestly do not know the full history of their cleaning but, it seems to have been done without too much difficulty. I may be wrong and would appreciate reading more about who and how they were cleaned.


I read that there might be more objects at the site waiting to be excavated. A new, documented discovery might provide some important answers.


The unidentified material found on the objects.


I was asking if anyone knew what would happen to an organic material like beeswax if it were exposed to calcium carbonate for a thousand years. Would it dissolve or change into some other form? What would become of it after thirty years? All we know at this point is that it was a foul smelling material with "wax like" properties. I am not suggesting that it was actually beeswax, although beeswax would make sense.


If I were concerned about exposing the objects and their delicate inscriptions to a highly corrosive environment, I might coat the objects with a wax or some similar type of resin. It's a completely logical thing to do and yet it's one of the many problems with the Silverbell Road objects. It suggests that the burial was planned or intentional.


And it was.


The authors name, once known, would provide valuable insight in to the question of why. And that is what anyone researching the objects should be focused on. What was the authors motivation?