Lincolns assassination

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Lincoln's quotes, above, were to show what Lincoln believed, and at least another reason for them to kill him. It's in their history; it's what they do.

 

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[lamar]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear group;
I was APPALLED to read this statement!

THEORY #5
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS BEHIND LINCOLN'S ASSASSINATION
The Jesuit Connection
In 1886 an ex-priest by the name of Charles Chiniquy (pictured to the left) wrote a book titled Fifty Years in the Church of Rome which portrayed the assassination of Lincoln as a Catholic grand conspiracy. Chiniquy maintained that Jefferson Davis had offered $1,000,000 if someone would "kill the author of the bloodshed." Chiniquy wrote that the money could be offered, but that "...the Jesuits alone could select the assassins, train them, and show them a crown of glory in heaven..." Booth was the tool of the Jesuits. He was corrupted and directed by the Vatican. In 1906 Chiniquy said, "The President, Abraham Lincoln, was assassinated by the priests and the Jesuits of Rome." In 1856 Lincoln had defended Chiniquy in court. Chiniquy had quarreled with his bishop and then was sued for slander by one of the bishop's friends (the bishop himself having nothing to do with the complaint). A morals charge was also involved. The case was heard May 20-22, 1856, in Urbana, Illinois. Lincoln arranged for a compromise settlement, but Chiniquy interpreted the settlement as a victory over the church. He felt some Jesuits held Lincoln responsible for the settlement. In 1897 Thomas M. Harris, a member of the 1865 military commission, wrote a book entitled Rome's Responsibility for the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Other books that involve the Roman Catholic Church in Lincoln's assassination include DEMOCRACY UNDER SIEGE The Jesuits' Attempt to Destroy the Popular Government of the United States: The True Story of Abraham Lincoln's Death by C.T. Wilcox and The Suppressed Truth about the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln by Burke McCarty (1924). McCarty's opening sentence was, "In all the bloody history of the Papacy, perhaps in no one man, as in Abraham Lincoln, was there concentrated such a multitude of reasons for his annihilation by that system." An Inquiry into the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln by Emmett McLoughlin was published in 1963. Among other points, McLoughlin maintained that the majority of American Catholics were in favor of slavery and opposed to Lincoln. The author said the totalitarian Papacy considered Lincoln a major enemy, and that the Church for centuries had "been involved in numerous instances of the forcible removal of heads of state whom it condemned."




Statements such as this are absolutely ABSURD and it smacks of anti-Catholicism! There is ABOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that associates the Jesuits with the Lincoln assassination and the person who proposed this *theory* is neither obviously clinically insane or he wishes to sell books! No only are statements like the one above slanderous in the extreme , they are also subject to civil prosecution! Statements like that one go beyond the realm of cinspiracy theories and they start heading into area of *hate groups*.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

No only are statements like the one above slanderous in the extreme , they are also subject to civil prosecution!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Bringing back the inquisition, are we?

 

[lamar]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear Cache Crazy;
You wrote:
Bringing back the inquisition, are we?

This is a PERFECT example of anti-Catholic sentiments!!! Do you know that during the entire Inquisition, less than 500 people were executed? And this is over a 250 year period. Also, did you know that in less than 75 years more one hundred THOUSAND innocent people were executed by the various Protestant religions during the Reformation period? Half of those deaths were in Germany alone. Nobody knows the actual number of executions because there were so many, but conservative estimates places the total dead at somewhere over 100,000 souls.

And yet you have the nerve to refer to the Inquisiton This is only because your ignorance of past historical events that you so freely use terms like the Inquisition. If you had actually STUDIED the Inquisition period in detail you may have discovered that the period in question was one of EXTREMELY leniency on the part of the Roman Catholic church. Out of over 22,000 accused heretics, the Roman Catholic Church saw fit to turn over only 468 to the secular authorities for punishment.

Compare 468 to over 100,000 and you will soon realize that the so-called *Protestant reformers* were nothing more than butchers in the guise of clergy, yet because of your refusal to delve into past accounts, you toss out the word *Inquisition* little realizing the fairness shown to the accused by the Catholic church, and by the same token, the extreme prejudices meted out to countless innocents at the hands of the *reformers*.

Also, you would have understood that the judicial process incorporated by the Roman Catholic church was fine tuned and it became the basis for OUR secular judicial process. That's correct, the Roman Catholic church were the first to use a form of due process. In it's basic sense, it is the same due process currently in use in the USa and other developed countries worldwide. If you enjoy the legal system that we currently have in the USA today then you can thank a Jesuit, because it was THEY who developed it!

I would suggest that you actually research history once in a while. What you find may surprise you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

hey gang,
Lamar wrote:
Also, you would have understood that the judicial process incorporated by the Roman Catholic church was fine tuned and it became the basis for OUR secular judicial process. That's correct, the Roman Catholic church were the first to use a form of due process. In it's basic sense, it is the same due process currently in use in the USa and other developed countries worldwide. If you enjoy the legal system that we currently have in the USA today then you can thank a Jesuit, because it was THEY who developed it!

All I can say is in light of recent events, " maybe " the " due process " of the Roman Catholic Church should change. Maybe they should NOT hide perpetrators, but should clean house a little. Please understand this is not a dig at the Catholic parishioners, or the Catholic Church. It Is aimed squarely at the people within the Church who have done harm, or who have hidden those from prosecution. History is not centuries old, it happens everyday and maybe before you take aim at other people, you should make sure that your house is clean first. I know of nothing written in the Bible that says this is ok. So PLEASE, be careful before you take aim..... It just might backfire...

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Lamar wrote

Statements such as this are absolutely ABSURD and it smacks of anti-Catholicism! There is ABOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that associates the Jesuits with the Lincoln assassination and the person who proposed this *theory* is neither obviously clinically insane or he wishes to sell books!

The words are those of Charles Chiniquy, a FORMER Catholic priest, and as he is deceased I rather doubt that he is trying to sell books or make money from it today. Your statement that there is "ABOLUTELY" no proof, are you certain about this? Is it pure coincidence that all of the conspirators of the Lincoln assassination were Catholics? Is it pure coincidence that Jesuit priests met with the conspirators at the house of Mary Surratt? Obviously there was not enough "proof" to convict these priests, but surely there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant further investigation. Other circumstantial evidence is there too, such as the fact that the Vatican, alone among European nations, actually recognized the Confederate government as legitimate, or that one of the key conspirators (John Surratt) fled to Europe, where he was found amongst the military forces of the Pope. The Pope had called Jeff Davis his dear son in one letter. Purely coincidental?

Lamar also wrote

Compare 468 to over 100,000 and you will soon realize that the so-called *Protestant reformers* were nothing more than butchers in the guise of clergy, yet because of your refusal to delve into past accounts, you toss out the word *Inquisition* little realizing the fairness shown to the accused by the Catholic church, and by the same token, the extreme prejudices meted out to countless innocents at the hands of the *reformers*.

Calling the Protestant Reformers "nothing more than butchers in the guise of clergy" sure sounds like anti-Protestantism, wouldn't you say? Refusing to look at our collective past, even with the horrors and bloodshed, will not help ensure that it never occurs again. We need only look at the terrible fratricide in Ireland or the Middle East to see how religious warfare can spin out of control. There is plenty of blame to spread around.

So I take it we have one vote/opinion against any kind of Jesuit involvement with the Lincoln assassination conspirators? Any other opinions? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

I " personally " will stand side by side with Oroblanco....

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Muchas gracias amigo - I take it you are also still very much on the fence with this one, as I am? It is tempting to just connect the dots, but without something besides a string of coincidences and statements of an ex-Jesuit, it doesn't seem enough to settle the case. The circumstantial evidence though, certainly is a little bit shocking to me. Our amigo Lamar is a stout defender of the Society of Jesus, perhaps he has not investigated some of the machinations of a few Jesuits in the political stage, being linked to several assassinations and attempted assassinations in Britain, France etc. The actions of a few however do not prove that the Order was actually behind them nor that it was approved. For instance Chiniquy made a point of the fact that John Surratt studied for three years to become a Jesuit priest, but took no notice of the fact that Surratt apparently never finished his education and may have even been kicked out. Only someone with access to the SJ archives could determine the facts concerning Surratt's not finishing his Jesuit training. Perhaps Lamar could find out? I know he has access to many archives, perhaps including those covering this very period and persons involved?
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear OroBlanco;
I have absolutely no intentions of becoming involved in any wild conspiracy theory concerning the Jesuits or otherwise, my friend. I am fairly certain that John Surratts' educational records are housed in an archive somewhere, however I have no desires to become involved in something as absurd as a Jesuit Lincoln assassination theory.

All of the Lincoln conspirators were Roman Catholics. So what? The Roman Catholic church is, and has always been, the largest Christian denomination in existence, therefore it is highly likely that they were Catholics. This proves NOTHING! Simply because 75% of the German high command were Catholics during WWII, are you going to accuse the Vatican of starting the war?

All the Lincoln conspirators may have been Catholic, however this does NOT condemn the Roman Catholic church and most especially it's religious Orders to include the Jesuits. The Holy See typically frowns upon members of It's clergy who involve themselves in politics and this has been It's policy since the inception of the Church. Granted, sometimes this is very difficult to accomplish and at times even impossible, due to inter-relationships between the secular politicans and the clergy, however it is an ideal which is ALWAYS strived for.

John Surratt studied at one time to become a priest. So what? LOTS of men study in order to join the priesthood. To clarify a point, John Surratt did NOT attend a Jesuit seminary, the seminary which he attended was a SUPLICIAN seminary! DOH! And yet NOBODY has had the INCLINATION to ascertain just WHERE John Surratt attended seminary training, BUT simply because he was in a seminary one automatically ASSUMES that they were the Jesuits!

In short, the entire theory of possible Jesuit participation is a pathetic attemp at grandstanding, in my very humble opinion and it should be condemned for what it is. Nonsense and malarky.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

the actions of a few rogue people do not make it an organizational problem / or mean the church actively supports their actions at the highest levels -- recently ---a some "rogue" preist did foul things with children --a few other middle level "rogue" higher ups hid the facts of what they did ---out of shame for the church to protect its image rather than to cleanse the evil from their ranks by publicly exposing them --- that is their short comings / errors --- that it occcured theres no doubt --but no sane person would say -- its the "church's " policy is that it supports child molesting in any way or form -- I hope , no sane person would think such a replusive ideal. ( pass four buscuits) - redneck latin

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Lamar, will you deny the murders of 168 million Christians in the last 2000 years? Or is that also an acceptable number? Those are only the ones that have been recorded. Who knows how large the number really is. And they were killed because they would not bow and worship a man who calls himself vicar of Christ=successor, or instead of Christ. I'm not trying to turn this into a religious thread, but if you study history instead of taking the word of "the order", you will see it has been recorded. Yes, I've studied it, but I'm sure you would not like the books I'm talking about.

I have not stood for protestant denominations, as I know that ALL denominations are wrong. So, you can do me no harm by showing me where some religious order, other that catholic, has done some of the same works. You've been lied to, Lamar. I hope that you will one day see that.

P.S. You are also wrong about the reformers. You're listening to the wrong voices.

 

[lamar]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear cactusjumper;
You wrote:
Lamar, will you deny the murders of 168 million Christians in the last 2000 years? Or is that also an acceptable number? Those are only the ones that have been recorded. Who knows how large the number really is. And they were killed because they would not bow and worship a man who calls himself vicar of Christ=successor, or instead of Christ. I'm not trying to turn this into a religious thread, but if you study history instead of taking the word of "the order", you will see it has been recorded. Yes, I've studied it, but I'm sure you would not like the books I'm talking about.

I have not stood for protestant denominations, as I know that ALL denominations are wrong. So, you can do me no harm by showing me where some religious order, other that catholic, has done some of the same works. You've been lied to, Lamar. I hope that you will one day see that.

P.S. You are also wrong about the reformers. You're listening to the wrong voices.
Posted on: Today at 07:08:13 AMPosted by: ivan salis

I have done my own research and according to the official existing records, the numbers are correct. These do not only come from Vatican sources, but an entire host of Protestant and secular archives throughout Europe. The Vatican kept no records on how many people were executed by the reformers, however many Protestant churches and also the various regional secular entities did. I have no reason to doubt their validity, in fact a large number of these records have been lost or destroyed with time, therefore 100,000 will have to serve as a consersertive estimate.

The only thing which possibly could have lied to me are the records themselves and I honestly do not think that they are all that inaccurate. In fact, I feel that it is YOU who have been lied to, and most likely you lied to yourself, or, you've allowed others to perpetuate lies into truths, my friend.

You can not pin the deaths of the various native tribes of the Americas to the Catholics, my friend. The slaughter of these peoples rests solely in the hands of the secular authorities of the day. If you are referring to the Crusades, please note that at NO TIME did ANY Pope state that the Crusaders were to butcher Jews and Muslims! What the Vatican DID state was that if a Christian Crusader killed an infidel in a JUST manner, then that Crusaders' soul would not be in mortal danger and his soul would not be subjected to fires of eternal damnation. Please be aware that the Papacy never stated that the Crusaders' souls would be cleansed and they would not need to pay for their temporal sins, or that they would achieve the Kingdom of Heaven without going to Purgatory first.

Because the Crusaders themselves CHOSE to murder all manner of peoples, Christian and infidel alike is NOT the fault of the Vatican or even the Roman Catholic church, my friend. Simply because they were trying to expand their realms and using the Church as their excuse does not relieve them of the culpability of their acts, nor does it place the burden of guilt on the Roman Catholic church.

I might suggest that instead of reading books on psuedo-history and dime store *what -if* tales that you immerse yourself in the actual documents of the periods in question. Granted, most of the existing documentation is highly restricted, and rightly so ,in order to preserve the documents into perpetuity, however they can be safely photocopied for a nominal fee.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear cactusjumper;
You wrote:
Lamar, will you deny the murders of 168 million Christians in the last 2000 years? Or is that also an acceptable number? Those are only the ones that have been recorded. Who knows how large the number really is. And they were killed because they would not bow and worship a man who calls himself vicar of Christ=successor, or instead of Christ. I'm not trying to turn this into a religious thread, but if you study history instead of taking the word of "the order", you will see it has been recorded. Yes, I've studied it, but I'm sure you would not like the books I'm talking about.

I have not stood for protestant denominations, as I know that ALL denominations are wrong. So, you can do me no harm by showing me where some religious order, other that catholic, has done some of the same works. You've been lied to, Lamar. I hope that you will one day see that.

P.S. You are also wrong about the reformers. You're listening to the wrong voices.
Posted on: Today at 07:08:13 AMPosted by: ivan salis

I have done my own research and according to the official existing records, the numbers are correct. These do not only come from Vatican sources, but an entire host of Protestant and secular archives throughout Europe. The Vatican kept no records on how many people were executed by the reformers, however many Protestant churches and also the various regional secular entities did. I have no reason to doubt their validity, in fact a large number of these records have been lost or destroyed with time, therefore 100,000 will have to serve as a consersertive estimate.

The only thing which possibly could have lied to me are the records themselves and I honestly do not think that they are all that inaccurate. In fact, I feel that it is YOU who have been lied to, and most likely you lied to yourself, or, you've allowed others to perpetuate lies into truths, my friend.

You can not pin the deaths of the various native tribes of the Americas to the Catholics, my friend. The slaughter of these peoples rests solely in the hands of the secular authorities of the day. If you are referring to the Crusades, please note that at NO TIME did ANY Pope state that the Crusaders were to butcher Jews and Muslims! What the Vatican DID state was that if a Christian Crusader killed an infidel in a JUST manner, then that Crusaders' soul would not be in mortal danger and his soul would not be subjected to fires of eternal damnation. Please be aware that the Papacy never stated that the Crusaders' souls would be cleansed and they would not need to pay for their temporal sins, or that they would achieve the Kingdom of Heaven without going to Purgatory first.

Because the Crusaders themselves CHOSE to murder all manner of peoples, Christian and infidel alike is NOT the fault of the Vatican or even the Roman Catholic church, my friend. Simply because they were trying to expand their realms and using the Church as their excuse does not relieve them of the culpability of their acts, nor does it place the burden of guilt on the Roman Catholic church.

I might suggest that instead of reading books on psuedo-history and dime store *what -if* tales that you immerse yourself in the actual documents of the periods in question. Granted, most of the existing documentation is highly restricted, and rightly so ,in order to preserve the documents into perpetuity, however they can be safely photocopied for a nominal fee.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I said you wouldn't like the books I refer to...with good reason. They show your system for what it is. And I'm not surprised that your masters have tried to change the history books. It's what they do.

You quote me as cactusjumper, and as ivan salis. Your research should have told you I'm Cache Crazy.

 

[lamar]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear Cache Crazy;
Please forgive my faux pas (error). I having been running 10 different ways for about a week now and life has be hectic. Also, you wrote:
Your research should have told you I'm Cache Crazy.
As for your nom de plume, I seriously doubt the veracity of the first part, however I have no misgivings as to the second.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Dear Cache Crazy;
Please forgive my faux pas (error). I having been running 10 different ways for about a week now and life has be hectic. Also, you wrote:
Your research should have told you I'm Cache Crazy.
As for your nom de plume, I seriously doubt the veracity of the first part, however I have no misgivings as to the second.
Your friend;
LAMAR

You can't believe I'm Cache?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

who said I post the 7:08:13 post? --not , me I don't know what thats about?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote:

Dear OroBlanco;
I have absolutely no intentions of becoming involved in any wild conspiracy theory concerning the Jesuits or otherwise, my friend. I am fairly certain that John Surratts' educational records are housed in an archive somewhere, however I have no desires to become involved in something as absurd as a Jesuit Lincoln assassination theory.

Greetings Lamar,
I must express my disappointment at your decision on this and hope you may yet reconsider some day. With your experience in the field of research and unique access to rare Vatican historic archives, I thought perhaps you would be able to prove or DISprove John Surratt's connections (however tenuous) with the Vatican once and for all. Have you considered that such a wild theory, may be true - even if only from the Confederates viewpoint? Perhaps they had hopes and/or designs of entangling the Vatican in their rebellion, to gain support financially and/or politically, which designs were not necessarily viewed by Vatican officials in a positive light. For example, John Hinkley jr plotted (and attempted) to assassinate president Ronald Reagan, and wrote to actress Jody Foster repeatedly, even enrolling in Yale University simply because he heard she was attending there, so was actress Jody Foster a conspirator in assassinating president Reagan? Clearly not, when we learn the facts from BOTH sides, and I had hoped that perhaps you could find the relevant records which might prove this supposed "Catholic" conspiracy existed only in the minds of the conspirators Booth, Surratt etc, or that perhaps they had made attempts to get Vatican support for their plans, which may well have been dismissed out of hand. We just don't know at this point. Simply closing the door to the question leaves such theories as we have from reverend Chiniquy an unsolved mystery.

I also understand that you are a very busy man and have limited time for researching things simply to find historical answers, but perhaps one day you will find the time and be free to find out the facts about Surratt and/or others involved in the Lincoln assassination conspiracy. Granted that such research cannot help prosecute any of the wrongdoers at this point in time, but it could at least set the record straight so that such accusations as made by Chiniquy would be settled for good.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Aaaa Yeah, I agree with what he ( Oroblanco ) said....

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

HOLA mi amigo Pegleglooker! Thank you. It would be great to be able to get the answers to such questions, and our amigo Lamar is one of the few who could find the actual records which would settle the issue finally.

I hope all is well with you, and that you will soon be able to show the world a truck load of black, crusted GOLD nuggets!
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Lincoln's assassination

Ola Oro,
I would love to bring a TRUCKLOAD of black nuggets to you door, I just got to figure a way around this.....

PLL