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[ECS]

A very good article explaining the finance sources of the Confederacy, pre war, during, and after:
http://www.cincinnaticwrt.org/data/ccwrt_history/talks_text/clancy_cs_finance.html
http://www.cilvilwarhome.com/confederatefinance.htm

The Confederacy was financed not so much by the KGC, but by seizing the New Orleans mint, Southern Banks, sale of bonds, Ladies jewelry for the Cause, and LOANS to be paid by cotton shipments.

 

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[sdcfia]

... Marker caches are buried according to a geometric pattern like is shown in this photo. The main depository is represented by the large red dot in the center while the much smaller, but still valuable, marker caches are represented by the small red dots.
~Texas Jay

View attachment 1522249

That pattern can be converted into an overlay and scaled to fit a USGS Quad sheet - the large square being a section of land (square mile) as defined by our Township land surveying protocols. The four points of the square would be section corners (the little red x's on the topo map) and the other dots could correspond to locations within the square mile. However, as someone once told me, "Using the overlay is simple enough except for one thing - it needs to be rotated from the center point, and we don't know what the rotation angle is. Each layout uses a different rotation".

 

[Ditlihi]

A very good article explaining the finance sources of the Confederacy, pre war, during, and after:
Confederate Finance and Supply
http://www.cilvilwarhome.com/confederatefinance.htm

The Confederacy was financed not so much by the KGC, but by seizing the New Orleans mint, Southern Banks, sale of bonds, Ladies jewelry for the Cause, and LOANS to be paid by cotton shipments.

Also, peruse any early issue of the Confederate Veteran for first hand essays on the stark reality of fighting a war with no weapons, powder, food, or shoes on your feet.

Confederate Veteran archives

 

[Kace]

All of the gold and silver coins in those photo shoots were bought off Ebay.

You mean Bought From Griffith...right?

The Gillespie sisters were not happy he was showing and selling those photos and videos that were taken when he was on their property without permission.

 

[Kace]

If you would have explored that site you would have noticed that it belong to Michael Griffith, and would have been part of that "big KGC discovery in Oklahoma" that Texas Jay referenced.
You say they all came from Ebay?
Interesting.

He has to have meant Griffith was selling that stuff...The Gillespie sisters confirmed it came from their land while he was trespassing. He sells those photos, other photos and videos from there.

 

[Ditlihi]

He has to have meant Griffith was selling that stuff...The Gillespie sisters confirmed it came from their land while he was trespassing. He sells those photos, other photos and videos from there.

One question. How would they know it came from their land if he was trespassing. Wouldn't they have had to see him dig it up? What am I missing?

Edited to add.....It is my understanding that he and his "partner" had a falling out, and now he will neither confirm, or deny that it actually came from there?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The KGC bought all the supplies the South needed to fight the war. Did you ever hear of any shortage of guns or powder?

Yes. I have. How about Gettysburg?

E.P. Alexander

"We had ammunition enough for one good fight, and in a victory would capture enough for the next."

***

JAMES DEARING,
Major, Comdg. Battalion Artillery, First Corps.

"About this time my ammunition became completely exhausted, excepting a few rounds in my rifled guns, which were used upon a column of infantry which advanced on General Pickett’s right flank. I had sent back my caissons an hour and a half before for a fresh supply, but they could not get it."

***

Robert E. Lee

"The troops moved steadily on, under a heavy fire of musketry and artillery, the main attack being directed against the enemy's left center. His batteries reopened as soon as they appeared. Our own having nearly exhausted their ammunition in the protracted cannonade that preceded the advance of the infantry, were unable to reply, or render the necessary support to the attacking party. Owing to this fact, which was unknown to me when the assault took place, the enemy was enabled, to throw a strong force of infantry against our left, already wavering under a concentrated fire of artillery from the ridge in front, and from Cemetery Hill,..."

***
James Longstreet

"I gave orders for the batteries to refill their ammunition chests, and to be prepared to follow up to advance of the infantry. Upon ridding over to Colonel Alexander's position, I found that the advised General Pickett that the time had arrived for the attack, and I gave the order the General Pickett to advance to the assault. I found then that our supply of ammunition was so short that the batteries could not reopen. Then order for this attack, which I could not favor under better auspices, would
have been revoked had I left I had that privilege."

***

E.P. Alexander

General Longstreet spoke up promptly: "Go and stop Pickett right where he is, and replenish your ammunition." I answered that the ordnance wagons had been nearly emptied, replacing expenditures of the day before, and that not over 20 rounds to the gun were left--too little to accomplish much--and that while this was being done the enemy would recover from the effect of the fire we were now giving him.

And

When Louisiana seceded in January 1861 Southern forces took over the U.S. Mint at New Orleans and confiscated the bullion kept by the Mint at a state bank depository. This move formed the nucleus of the Confederate treasury funds, which were then bolstered up by Southern bankers suspending specie payments and who turned their coins over to the Confederate Treasury. The Confederacy appropriated by confiscation from Federal Custom Houses and mints about $6,000,000 in gold and silver coins. There was also a gold loan negotiated in Paris and London early in the war which netted the South $3,000,000, some scattered funds gained from the sale of the "cotton bonds" in Europe and $15,000,000 specie loan floated in 1861 in the Confederacy. The Southern investor could only subscribe to this loan by paying for his bonds in gold and silver coins.


These bonds offered 8% interest payable in gold, bonds were due in ten years from May 1, 1861, and a small tax levied on export of cotton to pay interest on these bonds. The tax had to be paid in gold also. All of this financing netted the Confederate Treasury approximately $20,000,000 in gold and silver. Unfortunately, this hard money could not be kept as a reserve for later issues of paper money by the Confederate Treasury as it had to be used to pay for ships of war and munitions to be purchased in England and the continent of Europe as European shipyards and munitions makers insisted on payment for this type of hardware in hard cash. It was not that the British or French did not at first believe that the Confederacy had a good chance to win, but they traditionally believed in hard money and not credits.

-------

By January 1862 because of this colossal blunder on the part of the Davis government the CSA was ruined financially, struggling under an impossible load of constantly depreciating paper currency, with its armies suffering from lack of arms and supplies, and the people of the South feeling the pinch of shortages of food, medicines and many necessities of life.

From Confederate Finance and Supply, By W. Power Clancy,February 9, 1961

Cotton briefly supplied the South with funds until the blockades choked them off.

So much for the KGC funding those . . .

 

[ECS]

...
So much for the KGC funding those . . .

Say it ain't so, NO KGC-MART for the Confederacy?

 

[Kace]

Also, peruse any early issue of the Confederate Veteran for first hand essays on the stark reality of fighting a war with no weapons, powder, food, or shoes on your feet.

Confederate Veteran archives

I was going to say, I've read a lot of First Hand accounts as well as hearing stories passed down and almost all of these families couldn't and didn't get mail from soldiers to even know where they were or if they were alive...someone would see them emaciated, in rags and usually barefooted walking towards their family home place.

These guys didn't have weapons either...I'm not sure where that other information came from Maybe franklin will share where it came from.

Hearing about and reading the soldiers stories is gut wrenching. Like taking a knife to a gunfight..

Thanks for the link Dit...

For anyone who wants to check it out, the Missouri Confederate Musem in Higginsville, MO has great information online too. The cemetery there is where some of Quantrell's remains were interred. Dover, Ohio wouldn't give them his skull though so it's still there

The history of the Confederate Veterans Home that was there is also a good read, it explains the DOC out of St Louis raising money for the home.

Kace

 

[Kace]

One question. How would they know it came from their land if he was trespassing. Wouldn't they have had to see him dig it up? What am I missing?

Edited to add.....It is my understanding that he and his "partner" had a falling out, and now he will neither confirm, or deny that it actually came from there?

I wondered that too and then I read where they said that they had installed game and trail cams on their property due to all of the trespassers treasure hunting. Part of that story might be on the genealogy link ECS provided.

From what I've read, Brewer was either THE partner or One of his other partners that he had a falling out with. Let me know if you can't find the Gillespie sisters story and if you can't locate it, I'll try and find it for you.

Kace

 

[Ditlihi]

I wondered that too and then I read where they said that they had installed game and trail cams on their property due to all of the trespassers treasure hunting. Part of that story might be on the genealogy link ECS provided.

From what I've read, Brewer was either THE partner or One of his other partners that he had a falling out with. Let me know if you can't find the Gillespie sisters story and if you can't locate it, I'll try and find it for you.

Kace

Thanks, will do.

 

[Kace]

That pattern can be converted into an overlay and scaled to fit a USGS Quad sheet - the large square being a section of land (square mile) as defined by our Township land surveying protocols. The four points of the square would be section corners (the little red x's on the topo map) and the other dots could correspond to locations within the square mile. However, as someone once told me, "Using the overlay is simple enough except for one thing - it needs to be rotated from the center point, and we don't know what the rotation angle is. Each layout uses a different rotation".

Many people have shown up at the farm with that template...I never knew how it was supposed to work Everywhere...TJ explained Brewers marker cashe theory, franklin countered with his opinion. The county assessor said the same thing you did, but since I've never seen anyone actually use it, I didn't really know anything about it...except a lot of people have one.

I like that you share your surveying knowledge here. Thank You, SD

Kace

 

[mdog]

That pattern can be converted into an overlay and scaled to fit a USGS Quad sheet - the large square being a section of land (square mile) as defined by our Township land surveying protocols. The four points of the square would be section corners (the little red x's on the topo map) and the other dots could correspond to locations within the square mile. However, as someone once told me, "Using the overlay is simple enough except for one thing - it needs to be rotated from the center point, and we don't know what the rotation angle is. Each layout uses a different rotation".

I've never seen anybody explain how to use the overlay. Thank you very much.

 

[Kace]

I've never seen anybody explain how to use the overlay. Thank you very much.

SD I'm sure can go into more detail, but Texas Jay posted a photo and explanation of using the template...once you have found the location of a Large KGC Vault that you probably Can't get to and using the template find the 24 marker cashes that are around it that you probably Can get to. He said those are usually buried 3'-5' deep.

TJ's template photo and explanation on using it are a couple of pages back on this thread.

Kace

 

[uglymailman]

The template used as an overlay to a USC&GS map might work some places. Back East it won't because the surveying there was meets & bounds. Also won't work where Texas J's at as that was by Verde's.

 

[releventchair]

I wondered that too and then I read where they said that they had installed game and trail cams on their property due to all of the trespassers treasure hunting. Part of that story might be on the genealogy link ECS provided.

From what I've read, Brewer was either THE partner or One of his other partners that he had a falling out with. Let me know if you can't find the Gillespie sisters story and if you can't locate it, I'll try and find it for you.

Kace

Wonder what their cam results were.
Flash and noise can give them away ,even when well hidden. Here we use them for deer( and trespassers) with many stolen cams, SD cards removed,photo's deleted ,ect. I have been spared ...but location factors.
The remote viewing to cell phones give a live time ,but get pricey if run in high numbers.

 

[releventchair]

The template used as an overlay to a USC&GS map might work some places. Back East it won't because the surveying there was meets & bounds. Also won't work where Texas J's at as that was by Verde's.

Sounds like fun.
Only need to get one section marker right to get alignment?
Knowing what section monument descriptions looked like at time of using template originally might help.
If no indication of one on the template to orient by, the site might have the description matching a marker and/ or it's direction instead noted. Some one knows,or knew.

 

[Kace]

Wonder what their cam results were.
Flash and noise can give them away ,even when well hidden. Here we use them for deer( and trespassers) with many stolen cams, SD cards removed,photo's deleted ,ect. I have been spared ...but location factors.
The remote viewing to cell phones give a live time ,but get pricey if run in high numbers.

Those cams would have really been pricey back then...We use them too for trespassers, and remote viewing to tablets and cells.

I got the impression from reading their stories that either they..or a caretaker of the land knew Griffith and that was how his identity was confirmed from the cams.

Check out the link ECS posted to the genealogy site. It might tell about it there. Just thinking about the cams back then...the flash and noise..I doubt Griffith would have thought that the sisters would have put up surveillance like that so he probably wasn't looking for anything except to get in and out as soon as possible. That's just my thoughts about the cams being noticed....there are articles about Griffith and the Gillespie sisters online...I think Brewers old site even has something on it regarding all of that.

Kace

I know UGMM also has experience and knowledge in surveying and land markers from working with COE.

 

[Benjamin Gates]

That pattern can be converted into an overlay and scaled to fit a USGS Quad sheet - the large square being a section of land (square mile) as defined by our Township land surveying protocols. The four points of the square would be section corners (the little red x's on the topo map) and the other dots could correspond to locations within the square mile. However, as someone once told me, "Using the overlay is simple enough except for one thing - it needs to be rotated from the center point, and we don't know what the rotation angle is. Each layout uses a different rotation".

SD, do you know that for sure? I've read Brewer's Rebel Gold, and that large square is much bigger than a section of land!

 

[sdcfia]

The template used as an overlay to a USC&GS map might work some places. Back East it won't because the surveying there was meets & bounds. Also won't work where Texas J's at as that was by Verde's.

All land surveying is described by metes and bounds (distances and angles from one point to the next), as shown on any legal description of real property such as your property deed. What I'm talking about is the 36-square mile grid system established by Thomas Jefferson and implemented into a standard method of dividing public land- most of which eventually became private land due to sale, grant or homesteading as time passed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Ordinance_of_1785

These land sections (square miles) are what the template overlays are allegedly used for. The template can be scaled to fit any land map of course, the USGS quad sheets being a very common example - and the source of much speculation regarding the "KGC's" use of surveyors on their "team". The USGS itself has been alleged to be part of the big plan.

Not only is the template overlay alleged to be a way to locate caches, but also the 36 numbered squares of the Townships. The numbers of the sections are alleged to be referred to in carved clues, for example. There are many ways that a surveyor can make a cache location complicated to find, as you might imagine.

SD I'm sure can go into more detail, but Texas Jay posted a photo and explanation of using the template...once you have found the location of a Large KGC Vault that you probably Can't get to and using the template find the 24 marker cashes that are around it that you probably Can get to. He said those are usually buried 3'-5' deep.

TJ's template photo and explanation on using it are a couple of pages back on this thread.

Kace

There are other templates similar to TJ's with slight differences, but nearly the same. Some have additional annotations, with interesting symbology. The point is, it looks like a simple tool but there is an alleged proprietary method of using of the thing. Folks go to the dot locations and find a lot of empty holes, thinking that someone has beaten them to the prize. IMO, those holes are just plain empty and always have been.

Only need to get one section marker right to get alignment?
Knowing what section monument descriptions looked like at time of using template originally might help.
If no indication of one on the template to orient by, the site might have the description matching a marker and/ or it's direction instead noted. Some one knows,or knew.

True, assuming you can locate the appropriate starting point. Carved stones can be destroyed, moved or otherwise disappeared. I have a funny story about a carved stone and treasure hunter, but one that is not as funny is a section corner that my partner and I located last Friday - a nice GLO brass cap set onto a steel pipe driven into the ground in 1938. The un-funny thing is that it replaced an original carved stone that was placed in the 1870s about 140 feet away. That original stone was incorrectly set and needed to be replaced. It was removed and buried. Tough luck for somebody who was looking for it, eh?

IMO, if these "KGC" caches exist as speculated, most (maybe not all) were hidden late 1800s-early 1900s, and many relocated 1920s-1930s.