Lost Dutchman and the Superstitions, Cursed?

[MesaBuddy]

Close to Mesa/AJ border somewhere near Brown Rd :P :P
Did you get my email
MesaB

 

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[MesaBuddy]

LOL , now I got it Tortilla Flat huh Randy :P :P

MesaB

 

[Twisted Fork]

The only curse I can think of is on the poor devil who hasn't read about the accurate history of the Apache burying the Dutchman's funnel under tons of rubble during the winter of 1893. A funnel is a thug to begin with and comes strait up. The Peraltas cleaned up the entire surroundings beforehand so as to remove any outward sign leading one onto the 20 foot diameter hole in the first place. The headstone that Waltz picked eyes in was the first thing to go into the pit before the Native woman dumped hundreds of baskets full of stone in after it followed by expert natural landscaping. Maybe a Japanese gardener will find it someday. I know where it is; that's that one place where everyones truck breaks down over and over again and where we lost track on how many flat tires we could get in one weekend and where for some reason every one in the party starts arguing with each other for no apparent reason and where lightning filled thunderheads follow you around like house cats and and where it reaches 125 degrees in the July shade and where ghosts step into your form causing your vision to distort without you realizing it until you are back on the highway again. nah, it ain't cursed.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

"The only curse I can think of is on the poor devil who hasn't read about the accurate history of the Apache burying the Dutchman's funnel under tons of rubble during the winter of 1893."

Can you tell us which book or article contains this "accurate history"?

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

This story also comes from a book that can be found in the archives of the Phoenix library. Possibly out of print at this time as many of the best ones are that date back to the first breaths of such a legend. There were 3 or 4 main rags available way back. I do remember some explanations stemming from Hieroglyphic Canyon and the Apache version of a three day ride from there to the gold of the thunder gods and the three red hills. There was also mention of the Mormons killing the Peralta's young boys as they worked the placers that has now become Mesa, shortly before they settled there. 1847. The Don and their fathers were farther up river, probably 3 days ride to where the mines are. Mina Rica the boulder once said before a bundle of dynamite erased it from the top of one of the three red hills. Darn...........

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

"The only curse I can think of is on the poor devil who hasn't read about the accurate history of the Apache burying the Dutchman's funnel under tons of rubble during the winter of 1893."

Was the book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely? I recall that book has some of what you have mentioned such as the Apache women working to hide the mine.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

The only story about Apache Women hiding mines (that I know of) was after the massacre of the Peraltas.

The story went that they were ordered to hide all evidence of Mexican Mining (since the Peraltas supposedly had about eight mines in the Supers). The only mine they left open was one way up on a narrow ledge on the top of a large hill/small mountain. They thought that it was so hard to see, that nobody would find it anyway. That is supposedly how Jacob Waltz found his funnel of gold.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Mike,

If you are talking about Ely's book, the information came from Apache Jack. I believe he only mentioned one (1) mine being covered. He said that "A large number of Mexican were working at a mine." He told the story to George Scholey, who repeated it to Jim Bark.

What is interesting, is that Ely's story and the one in Bark's notes are not the same. In Bark's notes, there is no mention of the mine being covered by the Apache. Where both men seem to agree, is in there only being one mine.

My guess would be that Barry Storm injected the concealing of the mine(s) into the legend.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Twisted Fork]

Bingo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: I cannot emphasize too much to 'NOT' to rely upon every word in any published work, They consist of many smoky and nebulous bits of data, which in turn, were reconstructed results of any particular author's imagination, based upon how much questionable truth was available.

Never make the mistake of assuming that every word is 'Gospel'. If they had had the precise data, they most probably would have found the Mine themselves.

There is no doubt that many of my conclusions regarding Tayopa may be proven wrong. The fact that they fit nicely into my theory, and allowed me to home in on Tayopa, is no guarantee that they are true.

Remember, on all published works, even papers presented by legitimate scientists, are always flavored in a way to sustain their belief. Popular Authors aren't held to such close rules as the Scientists, especially, since they write books to 'sell'. For this latter reason, many resort to literally 'Authors licence', which to be gentle, is sometimes close to fabrication. Milton Rose comes to mind. etc.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Twisted Fork]

That's no doodle.......

An author here in Utah who was co-author to a knowledgeable writer in his family that shared piles of first hand knowledge about his forefathers involvement with the Ute Tribe concerning the lost Aztec mine Carrie Shin Ob. The source writer died, and not long after the co-author was thrown in jail for the suspected murder of his wife, so in prison he sat for more than 10 years. Since his release, he has written a whopper of a story about Shin Ob. It is so far fetched and different from the original story handed down through the Natives, that it is obvious of his intent to send anyone with 25 bucks for his rag, deep into the wilderness to find only the common treasure hunter's sickness of wanting to buy more of his newest bull crap books in an effort to seek out that one single clue they just have to be missing. Stick with the oldest versions possible guys and as close to the horse's mouth as you can get.

 

[Springfield]

Any information not from a participant is hearsay. The further back in time, the less reliable the information (cuts down you odds, doesn't it?). Published accounts are for entertainment value only. 'Original documentation' is highly likely to be a forgery and/or hoax. 99% of what you 'know' is misinformation, either intentional or unintentional. Reports of 'recoveries' are nearly always lies, perpetrated to gather attention to the liar. Happy hunting - it's great exercise and a way to experience some fantastic country.

 

[Twisted Fork]

You are quite correct on most all points, however there are stories from atop the horse of which who's mouth spoke without a forked tongue. My willow is twisted from the pull of Spanish gold.

 

[FEMF]

Hello
No the mine is NOT CURSED, But there was another death and the body was recovered this Morning!
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

Welcome to the conversation.......?

I heard about that hiker who came up missing. Believe he was hiking out of the Lost Dutchman State Park on the west side of the range. Do you know where the body was found?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[FEMF]

FEMF,

Welcome to the conversation.......?

I heard about that hiker who came up missing. Believe he was hiking out of the Lost Dutchman State Park on the west side of the range. Do you know where the body was found?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

Hello Joe
I think they found his body about 200 feet or yards from his motorcycle and they had found egg shell's from boiled egg's he was said to have with him. I don't think he was an LDM hunter, but was from Phoenix and has been working in China.

FEMF

 

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET FEMF!
Thank you for sharing this tragic news with us, sad though it is.
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Let us pray he is not still wandering out there in spirit like so many others.

 

[393stroker]

Greetings,

Is there a "curse" relating to the infamous Lost Dutchman mine and / or the Superstition mountains? The local Pima Indians held the mountains in some respect and even fear, and had a legend of an ancient flood in which people were turned into stone pillars. (Hence the name "Superstition" mountains; to the Spanish the mountains were known as "Espuma" (which means "foam") for the line of limestone in them, which Pima Indians told them had been where the foam from the ancient flood had reached.

There have been all kinds of fantastic tales told about the Superstition mountains, from wild bands of Apache warriors still holding out in the mountains to Aztecs living in caverns, UFOs, dimension-doors and even more incredible reports. There is the strange "coincidences" involved with one of the worst disasters of the Second World War and the famous Roosevelt Dam. Roosevelt Dam was constructed using stone from the Superstitions, and some 22 deaths were involved in the construction of the dam. When the first water came over the overflow was saved, it was used to christen a famous battleship - the USS Arizona. Some 25 years later, the Arizona became the most disastrous loss in the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and more than 1000 men went down with the ship; though many of the damaged US battleships were later raised and repaired, the Arizona remains lying on the bottom of the harbor, where a monument now stands on her structure. Coincidences?

We have all heard of the talk of deaths in the Superstitions too. I have not been able to obtain an exact number of the people who have lost their lives or simply gone missing in those mysterious, brooding and beautiful mountains. By some estimates there are over 600. Here is a partial list of some of the victims of the "curse".

1847-ish A massacre of a group of people occurred in what is today known as "Massacre Field" - the victims were either Mexicans or Pima Indians, caught by Apache warriors.

1870s, exact date unknown - Jacob Weiser, partner of the Dutchman Jacob Waltz, died of wounds received by attacking Apaches after escaping the mountains to a nearby ranch.

1880 - Two soldiers who had shown rich gold ore in Florence went into the Superstitions and disappeared; later their remains were found, with a bullet hole in their skulls. (This may be an incident which occurred in the Four Peaks region in truth)

1884 - Pedro Ortega was found shot dead some thirty feet from the home of Jacob Waltz, dead of shotgun wounds. Waltz told the sheriff that Ortega's partner shot him after "borrowing" Waltz's shotgun, but many believed that Waltz himself had killed Ortega.

1891 - a legend was born the night that Jacob Waltz, the "Dutchman" himself, died.

1892 - the last known death caused by an Apache attack in the Superstitions, Charles Dobie. Any relation to Frank Dobie?

1896 - the first reported beheading in the Superstitions, the victim being Elisha M Reavis (brother to the famous forger James Reavis) who lived the life of a hermit on Iron Mountain and sold garden produce to locals; some referred to Reavis as the "Madman of the mountains".

1910 - The skeletal remains of a woman were found high in a Superstition Mountain cave; gold nuggets were found next to the remains, but no remnant of any kind of clothing!

1931 - Dr. Adolph Ruth was found dead, his skull detached from the body with a 44 caliber hole through it; Ruth had told two prospectors he had possession of a map to the lost gold mine, these men packed Ruth into the mountains and later took his car. The authorities ruled the death "natural causes"!!! Well I guess you would naturally DIE if you are shot through the head with a 44!!!

1934 - The Superstition Mountains claimed the life of Adam Stewart

1936 - Roma O'Hal was hiking in the Superstition mountains, and died from a fall.

1938 - Prospector Guy "Hematite" Frank was found dead in the mountains with a sack of gold at his side. Another "accidental" death?

1948 - Treasure hunter James Cravey, age 62, was found dead in the Superstitions. His body was discovered first, and six months later his skull.

1949 - James Kidd vanished in the Superstitions, never seen again.

1951 - The body of Dr. John Burns of Oregon was found with a bullet hole through him. Even though there were no powder burns and a ballistics expert testified the shot had been from some distance, the coroner's jury ruled the death "accidental" or suicide!

1952 - Joseph Kelly, a native of Ohio, went into the Superstition mountains and vanished. Two California youths, Ross Bley and Charles Harshbarger, also disappeared in the Superstitions that year.

1955 - Charles Massey, hunting in the Superstitions with a 22 rimfire, was found dead, having been shot between the eyes with a heavy caliber bullet. The coroner ruled the death accidental, a result of a ricochet!!!

1956 - Martin Zywotho, a native of New York, was found dead with a bullet hole in his right temple. Although his gun was found beneath the body, the death was ruled a "suicide"!!!

1959 - Benjamin Ferreira killed his friend and partner Stanley Hernandez after they discovered what they thought was gold; the find was actually pyrite, "Fools gold". Ed Piper shot Robert St. Marie in an old-west style shootout after Celeste Marie Jones had hired St. Marie to kill Piper. Just two months after St. Marie was killed, Piper was found dead. An autopsy gave the cause of death as a 'perforated ulcer'. Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas, who was in the mountains on a hiking trip. Rowlee attacked Thomas and in self-defense, shot him.

1960 - Yet another beheaded skull was discovered in the Superstitions, this one with two bullet holes in it. The skull turned out to be the remains of Franz Harrer, a student from Austria. Also this year, the skeletal remains of William Harvey Jr were found, cause of death unknown.

1961 - Some children discovered the skeletal remains of Hilmer Bohen, who had been shot through the head. Walter Mowry's bullet ridden body ws found, the cause of death ruled a "suicide"!!!

1963 - Vance Bacon, a hired man working for Celeste Marie Jones (the woman who had a claim on the TOP of Weaver's Needle) fell to his death from the top of Weaver's Needle. According to some sources, there were rifle shots heard and some indications of foul play.

1964 - The skeletal remains of Jay Clapp were found, but his skull was missing and has never been found. Richard and Robert Kremis were found dead at the bottom of a high cliff. Also an elderly couple were found murdered in an automobile this year.

1970 - Al Morrow, long-term prospector, was killed when a boulder fell on him in the tunnel he was excavating.

1973 - Charles Lewing shot Ladislas Guerrero in self defense, at the Robert 'Crazy Jake' Jacobs camp site.

1976 - Howard Polling was killed by a gunshot while prospecting in the Superstitions.

1977 - Dennis Brown died from a gunshot wound.

1978 - Manuel Valdez was murdered.

1980 - The skeletal remains of Rick Fenning were discovered.

1984 - Walt Gassler, life-long searcher for the Lost Dutchman mine, was found dead in the Superstitions. In his pack was found gold ore identical to that from under the death bed of Jacob Waltz.

More than 100,000 people have searched for the infamous Lost Dutchman mine or legendary Peralta mines in the Superstition Mountains, and over 300 have claimed to have found it. So you decide, is there a curse?

Oroblanco

"There are stranger things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." --Shakespeare

I couldn`t say for sure if there is a curse or not, but it sure looks like one. I think I heard that quote before in an Iron Maiden song.

 

[Oroblanco]

We ought to update this list too.