Maps

[gollum]

Hal,

In your zeal to defend Kraig (which I respect, because there are few people more knowledgeable on the subject as he), you missed what I wrote:

1. From the ISTG Website, this is a list of the available records of the Ship Olbers:

How could someone have gotten a transcribed copy of a manifest that the ISTG DIDN'T HAVE A RECORD OF? It doesn't make any difference what the Olbers may or may not have done or been able to do. The ONLY thing that matters in this discussion is whether or not the ISTG had a record available to transcribe (WHICH THEY DID NOT as I showed you in my previous post). So, (again) if the ISTG did not have any record of the Olbers landing in New Orleans in 1839, then HOW ON EARTH did someone get a transcribed copy of that manifest from the ISTG to put in Helen Corbin's Book?

Mike

 

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[mpwuzhere]

So speaking of maps....does anyone have some hi-res pics of the peralta stones? Or is there a link around here somewhere? I find it hard to believe someone will pack around stones around the wilderness... I haven't read too much into where they were found at....but I would think someone would just create a rub from them that way they can easily toss it into a fire when done... Has anyone actually tried a rub from them?

BTW...I'm just one of those GE folk that likes to wish he still lived in AZ to hang with everyone else.. I'm trying to get through all the posts, there is just so much info.

 

[gollum]

.....also,

Here is the page of the book, please read the underlined section (sorry, and the rest of the paragraph before it):



That means that the pictures of the document in the book are being sold to us as "OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS OF THE ISTG".

Here is the first page of the "officially" transcribed Olbers Manifest:



So, I scanned all the copies of this "OFFICIALLY TRANSCRIBED DOCUMENT" and emailed them to the ISTG asking what records they had of both the document and the Olbers Manifest of that date. I posted what the reply was.

The reason everything fell on Kraig's Shoulders was because he already had the military service issue. You say it has no place in this discussion, but you could not be more wrong. Just as in a courtroom, a persons actions in a matter not relating to the case at hand are admissible when they are presented to show a previous track record.

I like Kraig very much, and like I stated previously, learning that the document came from him disturbed me greatly.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Garry and I started looking at the Olbers history around 2004. We pretty much beat it to death and knew it to be a fraud at that time. Nothing new in regards to evidence since we debunked it back then. It's taken all this time for folks to dream up a defense for the rebuttal to the obvious facts.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

.....also,

Here is the page of the book, please read the underlined section (sorry, and the rest of the paragraph before it):

View attachment 1133549

That means that the pictures of the document in the book are being sold to us as "OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS OF THE ISTG".

Here is the first page of the "officially" transcribed Olbers Manifest:

View attachment 1133550

So, I scanned all the copies of this "OFFICIALLY TRANSCRIBED DOCUMENT" and emailed them to the ISTG asking what records they had of both the document and the Olbers Manifest of that date. I posted what the reply was.

The reason everything fell on Kraig's Shoulders was because he already had the military service issue. You say it has no place in this discussion, but you could not be more wrong. Just as in a courtroom, a persons actions in a matter not relating to the case at hand are admissible when they are presented to show a previous track record.

I like Kraig very much, and like I stated previously, learning that the document came from him disturbed me greatly.

Mike

Mike,




"In your zeal to defend Kraig (which I respect, because there are few people more knowledgeable on the subject as he), you missed what I wrote:"


You would see it again if I thought that you were being treated unfairly.


1. From the ISTG Website, this is a list of the available records of the Ship Olbers:

Where is the 1838/9 Voyage on that list? The one that you said never happened? The transcribed manuscript from that voyage is obviously available online. Actually this is not important.


How could someone have gotten a transcribed copy of a manifest that the ISTG DIDN'T HAVE A RECORD OF?


"Someone" never did. That voyage to New Orleans never happened, which was your suspicion. Paul was able to create enough doubt to prove the document's content bogus. Local papers from the time confirm that the ship Olbers was somewhere in the Atlantic, running for Breman on November 17th. So, in actuality, there never was an "original" manifest to copy.


In reality, there were several transcriptions of manifests. The authour of that information had access to these including those Paul found and one from the ship Olbers. Thats a red flag and something for us to think about. For some reason, the author pulled, mixed and recreated a list from these manifests (hopefully transcriptions of manifests). The document that is in Mrs. Corbin's book was not created in PhotoShop. It was probably created in Word Perfect and printed on some type of craft or resume paper. Fonts are something like finger prints. The early ones anyway.


The bogus list displays none of the fonts used by the ITSG program. It also has no ISTG logo or watermark. And you have proven that without question they are "not ISTG documents". You and everyone else picking up Mrs. Corbin's book believe that the document itself was suppose to have come from the ISTG, beccause of the caption, and because of what was written by the author in the body of the book.


I think that Mrs. Corbin probably belived that the information in that document came from the ISTG.


What needs to be asked is if the publisher took that bogus information and recreated a manifest looking document for the book. Its done all the time and there is nothing wrong with it as long as a foot note is added, explaining the image. Was this done? I don't own the book and can not say with any certainty. I suspect that it was not.


Which, for Mrs. Corbin, turned out to be an unfortunate mistake.


It doesn't make any difference what the Olbers may or may not have done or been able to do.


It actually does. News reports of her travels are 100% PROOF of the deception that you were looking for.

A lie can be proven.


The ONLY thing that matters in this discussion is whether or not the ISTG had a record available to transcribe (WHICH THEY DID NOT as I showed you in my previous post).


Exactly.


So, (again) if the ISTG did not have any record of the Olbers landing in New Orleans in 1839, then HOW ON EARTH did someone get a transcribed copy of that manifest from the ISTG to put in Helen Corbin's Book?


We know that a bogus list came to Mrs. Corbin by way of Mr. Roberts. Mr. Roberts has written an explanation of how it came to him. It reads sincere, IMO. If you have a need to know more, there are leeds in that explaination to follow. But even when you find what your looking for it comes down to the publisher. That is where you should look for answers. If you need them.


The reason everything fell on Kraig's Shoulders was because he already had the military service issue. You say it has no place in this discussion, but you could not be more wrong.


I dont know anything about that but it sounds like something personal. Mike, if someone you liked tripped and fell on the trail, would you leave them there or would you give him a hand up?


Just as in a courtroom, a persons actions in a matter not relating to the case at hand are admissible when they are presented to show a previous track record.


Mike, that is simply not accurate.

I like Kraig very much, and like I stated previously, learning that the document came from him disturbed me greatly.


I cant say that I like the man because I have never met him or spoken with him.
I certainly have not read any reason to dislike him.

 

[Hal Croves]

All,

Garry and I started looking at the Olbers history around 2004. We pretty much beat it to death and knew it to be a fraud at that time. Nothing new in regards to evidence since we debunked it back then. It's taken all this time for folks to dream up a defense for the rebuttal to the obvious facts.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Not your best post I am sad to say.

 

[cactusjumper]

Not your best post I am sad to say.

Hal,

Sorry you feel it was not a good post. It was done to show that we have been doing our research for a very long time. For those who are just now looking into this mess, you are going over well trodden ground. We were thorough in what we have done.

As I said, I joined the research to disprove what was being found. Some of us tried very hard to find some kind of mistake.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

All,

Garry and I started looking at the Olbers history around 2004. We pretty much beat it to death and knew it to be a fraud at that time. Nothing new in regards to evidence since we debunked it back then. It's taken all this time for folks to dream up a defense for the rebuttal to the obvious facts.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

You never need to apologize especially when it's insincere, as shown by everything highlighted in red.
Am I now the liar?
That's a slippery slope that I don't think you want to climb.


And the next time you beat something to death, make sure ya kill it!
Thats a rub. : )

 

[cactusjumper]

You never need to apologize especially when it's insincere, as shown by everything highlighted in red.
Am I now the liar?
That's a slippery slope that I don't think you want to climb.


And the next time you beat something to death, make sure ya kill it!
Thats a rub. : )

Hal,

The Olbers story is dead, except for those who are new to the research.

No one is calling you a liar. It's been obvious to some of us that you are being fed information from those wishing to discredit the information that we have brought to the light of day.

On the other hand, I have always believed that the man had some very good information to give. He does have a lot of historical knowledge about Arizona and the Apache. While I have disagreed with some of his posts, it's only when it does not conform with known history.

The Dutch Hunting Community has some very deep and swift currents running just below the surface. In time, you will learn just how deep and swift they are.

Good luck, and watch your six,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

The Olbers story is dead, except for those who are new to the research.

No one is calling you a liar. It's been obvious to some of us that you are being fed information from those wishing to discredit the information that we have brought to the light of day.

On the other hand, I have always believed that the man had some very good information to give. He does have a lot of historical knowledge about Arizona and the Apache. While I have disagreed with some of his posts, it's only when it does not conform with known history.

The Dutch Hunting Community has some very deep and swift currents running just below the surface. In time, you will learn just how deep and swift they are.

Good luck, and watch your six,

Joe Ribaudo

What information have I been fed? I asked a bunch of question, got a bunch of answers, and like a big boy I came to the conclusion that someone made a bogus list. Do you now disagree? I had to prove it for myself, the way you always encourage people to do. But with certainty, and leaving no room for question. I don't think that you were quite there. That's a rude assumption but my opinion.

I still would like to believe that you want to know the origins of that bogus document, the one that you mistook for a forged transcript. Didn't you believe at one time that Mr. Kollenborn passed it to Mrs. Corbin? I think that I remember reading that in the link Mike provided. So, it seems that with persuasion your mind can be changed. Which is hopeful.

If you can prove that Mr. Roberts created that document, prove it to us. I am calling you out on this one and if you are correct, and can prove it without question, I will publicly apologize to both you and Mike and sign off of the DLM forum for good.

I don't think that ya can.

I don't know where you heard that rumor but I never had a six. Four, four and a half maybe, five when I am at my best but, never six.

I feel like your sending me to Coventry. : (

 

[Hal Croves]

I started this thread to be about maps. How did it get hijacked?

I guess it might be time to just sit back and just check this site once in awhile. It has taken another tangent.

"In the spring of 1942, he and fourteen other men went on horses up the salt river to Labarge canyon Then up Labarge canyon to squaw canyon. They turned up squaw canyon, passed by the box canyon, then passed on the north side of three red hills. Then turned north about 1 mile and turned west to a hill north of the box canyon. There is a tunnel at the south side base of the hill, with brush and small trees nearly hiding it. They then went to the top of the hill and uncovered a pit."


What do you think are the three Red Hills? The names of places there have changed, I think.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello Hal: Just for a point of clarification, It is impossible to ride horses up LaBarge Canyon to Squaw Canyon. You cannot get horses through the Lower LaBarge Box. I have personally hiked that part of LaBarge Canyon and have the terrain. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Hal: Just for a point of clarification, It is impossible to ride horses up LaBarge Canyon to Squaw Canyon. You cannot get horses through the Lower LaBarge Box. I have personally hiked that part of LaBarge Canyon and have the terrain. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Mr. Davis,
I have an email somewhere from Mr. Kollenborn that describes that trail. I will have to dig back four or five years to find it. I wish that I could tell you if it was or is still possible by horse. He did warn me about the dangers involved in climbing Squaw. That I remember.

Do you think otherwise? I know the approach via Peters Canyon by horse would be impossible. I am fascinated by the Haywood story. Obviously.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Greg is correct about LaBarge to Squaw Canyon being impossible for a person on horseback. On the other hand, there may have once been a trail you could ride. Tom Kollenborn has ridden many places where it did not look possible. He took Greg up the north side of the main mountain, where it looked like they were blocked.

If you can talk to him, Tom would be the man to ask if it's possible or once was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[BuffaloBob]

My latest research on Monuments and Mountain shaped by Spanish convinces me ..
They are interesting if you can identify them at all
Even knowing what they are the meanings incredibly sophisticated and important
And "markers" are never placed on the treasure site.
You are more likely to accidentally discover them theeeeeean searching.

Thousands of Spanish maps are in Santa Fe castle. NONE show any ID of what location, even what country.
BB

 

[Azquester]

BuffaloBob;4446751]My latest research on Monuments and Mountain shaped by Spanish convinces me ..
They are interesting if you can identify them at all
Even knowing what they are the meanings incredibly sophisticated and important
And "markers" are never placed on the treasure site.
You are more likely to accidentally discover them theeeeeean searching.

I've been to that steakhouse Bob. Those Maps are dinner placemats don't believe them!

Markers are all over Treasure Sites. They tell you which way (Azimuth) and how far to go (Distance) which may be off the site triangulation but still many monuments nearby.

At least at the sites I've been around in AZ that have good steak.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Greg is correct about LaBarge to Squaw Canyon being impossible for a person on horseback. On the other hand, there may have once been a trail you could ride. Tom Kollenborn has ridden many places where it did not look possible. He took Greg up the north side of the main mountain, where it looked like they were blocked.

If you can talk to him, Tom would be the man to ask if it's possible or once was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Unfortunately, that contact stopped responding to my emails several years ago. My loss actually. I still credit him with preserving the Haywood story and if something important ultimately is found using clues from that story well, it would not have been possible without his insight.

I had thought about asking The Feldmans for the obvious reasons. I don't know them and am not sure if they would even respond to a stranger. It would be an incredible thing to attempt it, retracing the journey on horseback. If I had the means, I would try it.

 

[markmar]

Hal

Are you willing to get the Haywood's story mine ?
And for the Three Red Hills from the Haywood's map , are not in the wrong place but is a surveying point of latitude comparison .

 

[cactusjumper]

Unfortunately, that contact stopped responding to my emails several years ago. My loss actually. I still credit him with preserving the Haywood story and if something important ultimately is found using clues from that story well, it would not have been possible without his insight.

I had thought about asking The Feldmans for the obvious reasons. I don't know them and am not sure if they would even respond to a stranger. It would be an incredible thing to attempt it, retracing the journey on horseback. If I had the means, I would try it.

Hal,

I will attempt to get an answer to the question.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

Are you willing to get the Haywood's story mine ?
And for the Three Red Hills from the Haywood's map , are not in the wrong place but is a surveying point of latitude comparison .

I don't understand the first question.

The Haywood story (and it may not ring true to some) is one of the few that interests me.
Joe's story about the cave of gold is also one that I think about quite often.

My reasons why are unimportant and I am not here trying to convince anyone.