Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

[Mackaydon]

The smaller coin on the left appears to be the reverse side of a Castillian dinero, billon coin minted during the reign of Alfonso X of Castile (1252-1284). The coin has no mint sign.The reverse we see shows the coat of arms of the Crown of Castile and Leon. If the obverse were shown, you would see a six line legend “ALF / ONSVS / REXCAS / TELLEE / TLEGIO / NIS", which in Latin means "Alfonso king of Castile and Leon". This coin is called "six-line dinero" because the legend is spread over six lines.
Don...
PS: I see nothing that would suggest they are fakes, but I am no expert.

 

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[doc-d]

Hmm and how will the National Park Service help anything?

 

[releventchair]

The oldest "documented/credible" history in my area is from along waterways due to what existed for survival's best odds at the time.
Understandably. Both from the perspective of those documenting , and from human pattern of sustainability along riverine and delta areas at times.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I'm not saying this was me at all :-)

PAGE, Ariz. – Is it a remarkable discovery or a clever hoax?
A hiker in southern Utah has found what appear to be old Spanish coins possibly dating back to the time of the conquistadors and perhaps even earlier, long before the voyages of Columbus.
The big question the National Park Service is trying to answer is: If they’re real, what are they doing in southern Utah?
"This is very exciting," said park service archaeologist Brian Harmon. "I’ve never seen anything like this in my career."
The mystery began last September when a hiker from Colorado made the discovery near the Halls Crossing Marina on Lake Powell. Park officials are keeping the exact location secret because of the possibility there are other undiscovered artifacts in the area. They’ve been keeping the two coins under wraps, too – deliberately not publicizing the find – because they aren’t sure yet what to make of it.
When KSL learned about the coins, though, Harmon confirmed the find and showed off the coins. They’re being kept in Page, Arizona, in the archives of the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area. Museum technician Lisa Riedel carefully unwrapped them while wearing white gloves.
“Well, we’re just trying to not touch them and (not) get oil from hands or whatever else, dirt on them," Riedel explained. “For being in the elements, they look really well-preserved.”


These coins, which appear to be old Spanish coins dating back to the time of the conquistadors and perhaps even earlier, were allegedly found by a hiker near the Halls Crossing Marina on Lake Powell in September 2018. The National Park Service is trying to authenticate the coins and determine how they made it to that location. (Photo: John Hollenhorst, KSL TV)The two small coins – one about the size of a quarter and the other smaller than a dime – definitely give the appearance of being ancient. They don’t appear to be gold; they are slightly greenish in color, suggesting the presence of copper.
"They're very thin," Riedel said. "We're guessing one is probably silver and one is maybe copper."
According to Harmon, the coins were found in a popular tourist area that has at times been underwater in the decades after the Glen Canyon Dam was built in the 1960s. The Colorado hiker, whose identity is being kept confidential, told the park service that he spotted the coins just lying on the ground. He was not using a metal detector; their use is illegal in national recreation areas and other lands administered by the National Park Service.
“There was a lot of trash around," Harmon said. "He thought they (the coins) were maybe medallions from a wine bottle or something. So, modern trash. He picked them up, took them home. When he started looking at them, he’s like, 'Hey, these might actually be something, very old and very important.' He did a bit of research on his own on the internet and figured out that they were old Spanish coins."
The Colorado man’s research brought him to a startling conclusion. He told the park service that he believes the larger one matches coins from the 1660s and the smaller one matches coins from the 1290s, two full centuries before Columbus. With that realization, he decided to turn them over to the park service.
"His behavior was a model of how to respect the history," Harmon said. "You know, he picked these up thinking they were modern trash. It was an honest mistake. And as soon as he realized what he had, he reached out to us."

---

So what we're doing is reaching out to experts in old Spanish coins to learn, are these authentic? How old are they?—Brian Harmon, Utah State Parks

---

​

The park service so far has not confirmed the discoverer’s conclusions.
"So what we're doing," Harmon said, "is reaching out to experts in old Spanish coins to learn, are these authentic? How old are they?"
If they are authentic, that would deepen the mystery: It’s a real puzzler to contemplate how old Spanish coins got to Utah and how they fit into the known history of European exploration. The first well-documented Spanish expedition into the area was in 1776 led by two Spanish priests, Father Atanasio Dominguez and Father Silvestre Velez de Escalante. But the route of the Dominguez-Escalante expedition is well-known; the two priests were never anywhere near Hall’s Crossing where the coins were found.
"I think it's very unlikely that these are associated with Escalante and Dominguez," Harmon said. "One possibility is that there was some Spanish presence in that area that just is undocumented or is very poorly documented. Another possibility is that these coins were traded to a Native American group by the early Spanish explorers and settlers."
It’s also possible, of course, that the whole thing is a modern hoax perpetrated by someone with a yen to distort history. They also could literally be modern trash, some kind of packaging or trinket made to look like Spanish coins.
No matter what, though, for an archaeologist, trash doesn’t get much better than this.
"Spanish coins, Spanish artifacts of this age are extremely rare in the Americas," Harmon said, "so this is really exciting to see this."
The discoverer has chosen to remain anonymous and out of the public eye. He declined a request for an interview.

https://www.ksl.com/article/4653589...cZuS9FAze1cq6u8WZEQEwjII4rjKrOpIo_nnc1APhj6Dw

Embrym,

I apologize, if my ( often times) words are not clear enough.
I have no doubts that the trail of events, that you are reporting, is true at every level. And that the coins are genuine...

My thoughts on the matter are that the handling of the information from our government is in the same rut that so many great discoveries have fallen into.

Clearly...

Just based on the conversations , here on Tnet, the coins would be much better off in public hands!

Several people, right here on this thread , have exposed more information about the coins and the probability of how they came to exist and how they were lost, and found where they were, than the research, handled by government officials.

We all know, and believe that the history books that we were taught from are , at best, incomplete and inaccurate!!

I firmly believe that this,TreasureNet,
Forum is more capable, in solving the mysteries surrounding the coins.

That certainly includes you! You have dug deeper than what the government is reporting. News reporters can and will report their findings, but their digging, stops when the editor believes that a story is no longer profitable, and the story stops their for about 98% of reporters...

There is more information here, brought up by talented and intelligent people, than within the government constraints of trusted people.

That is the only dent in the armor of the reports being released.

Your reporting on these coins, has been stellar.

And much appreciated.

About thirty five to forty years ago, my father discovered, what he believed to be the skull of a murder victim in the sands of an oil company’s pipeline project.

He saw, only a round object with a hole in it, but he was a criminal investigation detective, trained to notice such things.

He felt the inside of the hole and removed some of the sand from around it to determine that it was in fact a human skull, and notified the county sheriff, and they determined that it was well beyond the statute of limitations (time wise) and had a college professor come and confirm their findings.

It remained a crime scene, only as long as it took to declare the area as An archeological site.

Ultimately it wound up in a box in the Smithsonian warehouse, as a prehistoric murder victim.

There was a large write up in the local news paper, and that was the last of it.

Outside of that write up, there has been no fame nor glory for the discovery, and no information about it since.

Government entities have no business handling history.

Keep digging up information Embrym!
Good work, bringing these coins to light and life.

#/;0{>~

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

ProspectorMikel,

I agree with your analysis completely.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Still trying Embryo.

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Still trying Embrym.

Don Jose,

Of course. Not giving up on the Josephine de la Martinique Gold mine, at all. Doing my due diligence.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy embrym,

The Spanish directions clearly state 12 "leguas" West of the Timpanogos River. Hoyt Peak is to the East, and the Henry Mountains are no where near. In my search I found that the Timpanogos River was renamed as the Provo River. I also found that at that time, the "legua" measured 5,472 meters. Since that river doesn't run straight North to South, I took several measurements to begin my search.
I don't know about Captain Jose Joaquin Garcia, but most of the explorers, ship captains, and mineralogists were either Basque, or has a Basque in their crew helping them. The Basque were the elite of the elite, the first to sail around the world, and most of the Spanish ships sailing at that time were made in Basque shipyards. In other words they could measure longitude on water, or land with the sextant. They did not have to walk for a day to get a measurement.
From 5 different measurements, most put me just inside a valley, while some put me just inside some mountains close to that valley. The measurements just inside the valley are the only ones close to the mouth of another river, which has to be Garcia's Santa Anna River. It seems to me that Garcia took the measurement from the Timpanogos River, at the junction of hwy 189 and 92. They had maps with their trails, and trails later became our roads.
From there 12 "leguas" West puts you in what would be "Hiebra" Valley, closest town is Stockton. In that valley below Stockton, you can find where a river, and many creeks ended up in a very small lake. It is hard to tell the exact point where the mouth of that river used to be, but I picked a spot near the center of the South part of that small lake. I can later give you the coordinates for it.
From the mouth of that river, you go 2 "leguas" to the South East, then 1 "legua" South "por tierra" (by land) meaning not through the mountains, but just inside the valley. From there you will take a canyon that enters the valley from the East. The town of Mercur is in that canyon. You follow the canyon to a round peak bare of trees, and from that bare round peak you measure l600 varas North East to the mine.
I can't make out all of what is high lighted in the directions to translate them properly. There is a bare round peak in there, but there was also a lot of strip mining done, so maybe some other bare round peak got leveled?

Homar

Howdy embrym,

I brought down this post to make a correction, and to ask my Amigo Mikel not to go accusing me of being intelligent any more. I just had two minor surgeries yesterday, and am taking meds, so hope for the best.

I was trying to go from memory when I posted the "legua" measurement as 5472 meters, the correct measurement for that time was 5572.7 meters. I rounded it off to 5572 to be able to use the Google Earth ruler set at meters. So the image I posted is as close as can be, however if anyone tried to measure the 12 "leguas" West of the river, they would end up in the mountains and not in the valley.
I also stated that they didn't have to walk for a day to get a measurement, when it is actually an hours walk to measure a "legua comun". I was lucky that when I went to look for the "legua" measurement, I went straight to the source, I did my search in Spanish. Today I did a quick search in English, and get all kinds of distances, no wonder so many Spanish treasures remain lost. Even Spaniards themselves used different measurements depending where he was from, and the date the treasure was buried, but even then, without the correct magnetic declination, most measurements will be off.

In my Spanish search I found that the "legua", or league was originally set at 5000 "varas Castellanas de Burgos", or 4190 meters. That first Spanish version of Rome's league was used until it was abolished by Philip II in 1568, and replaced by the "legua comun", which was the distance of travel in one hour. That common league varied too much because it was affected by way of travel, foot, horse, mule, wagon, group, load, terrain, obstacles, or climate. It also had no way to use it for legal purposes. That common league was replaced in the 16th century, established at 6666.66 "varas Castellanas", or 5572.7 meters.

This new league still varied because many different kingdoms (Game of Thrones was going on) had different measurements for the "vara". In 1769 a royal order tried to unify the league at 8000 meters with different counties that they traded with. Since it was not doing so well, Carlos IV returned it to 5572.7 meters in Jan. 26, 1801. It remained like that until the metric system was adopted from 1880 to 99.

Homar

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Homar,

Thank you for your research and time.

 

[JohnWhite]

There are times I get so confused and my imagination begins to run wild...Long ago I was feeling rather creative and I started pulling rabbits from the hat...I even began to wonder if Gila could mean guia...indicado...liga...antiguo...But who can say for certainThere are many diehards who believe that it actually stands or represents the Gila River...lol...Then again gila could mean any darned thing...Then again there are those who believe Apache represents an Indian and Sonora is well...Sonora...

Ed T

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Homar,
It is okay with me, that you and I travel in the same boat.
I certainly don’t cast the first stone!!
And I know what it feels like to read something that I posted, and not figure out what I was trying to say.
Medications are important when you are in pain.

We’ll just call it PWI (posting while impaired)

But let’s go back to the miner surgeries, and not serious....
Even a miner circumcision is serious, I couldn’t walk for almost a year, after mine.

I tested that joke out on my dad, a few weeks ago and he scratched his head and looked around in circles, trying to remember me having any surgery at all, let alone not being able to walk. After about a half minute, I let him off the hook.

He said that he knew who he was going to pull that one on.

I’ll cut out the (smart) references.

Take care of yourself, we don’t heal quickly at our age (old enough for Medicare)!

It is time for me to get to bed, before my meds get me into trouble.

#/;0{>~

 

[markmar]

After reading more info and studying an ancient map about Josephine de Martinique mine, I came to the conclusion my first estimation was wrong. There are some tricks in the words written in the redotero about mine's place.
If someone takes the words literally, all go wrong. But if someone takes the words as a part of a bigger image, then things begin to make sense.

 

[JohnWhite]

What does: Gila, Apache, and Sonora all have in common?Give me an A...lol...Wouldn't it be something if the a stands for ArcaWho can say for certainI doubt that the ark of the covenant was spirited away to the new world and hidden for safe keeping among some of the most prominent mines of the time...heck...there are even 2 a's in Tayopa and 3 in el naranjal....hehehe

Ed T

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Discovered a long the Green River, Utah.

 

[markmar]

Homar


From my research, I found out how for the Josephine mine waybill they have used as a league about 5100 meters. For me didn't make sense why to hid the treasure with a door made from timbers in an already covered mine, because if somebody ever would enter the mine for sure he would destroy that door/cover to search behind.
My opinion is how the mint's tunnel with the treasure is 46 varas from the mine's shaft entrance, outside, in the open, and the 8 varas width is for the timbers cover at the mint's entrance.
These are the satellite images from the Josephine de Martinique mine's location

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Gold, Silver, copper bar, Utah...

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Silver cache found in Utah cave...

 

[markmar]

I have not been at the Empress mine site, but from the Ge image, seems the " negra chico " is a turtle which its rear right leg is longer and point to the mint's entrance.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

John, clarify please. 3 in Naranjal ? Naranjal lies on the extreme S end of the same occurance as Tayopa. Formerly Chihuahua.

 

[JohnWhite]

John, clarify please. 3 in Naranjal ? Naranjal lies on the extreme S end of the same occurance as Tayopa. Formerly Chihuahua.

I was just stating that there are 3 a's in nArAnjAl Don Jose...And I still believe El Naranjal to be in Durango...I am even beginning to wonder if El Naranjal is part of Tayopa...As stated in the PSM's...As in 2=3 and such...Many have speculated that there are 3 Tayopa locations...So, I have been thinking that the PSM's could actually be a mapa of the Tayopas...Though we may never know for certain...

Ed T