Music and Trap Canyon

[Absurd-Ginger]

Hey Everyone, I searched for a while and could not find anything on these two canyons in the forum archive. Hope I'm not reposting anything. I've been interested in Music and Trap canyon for a while and was wondering if anyone had any info to share on those locations. Im going to share some photos of a small cave with rock walls. Let me know what you all think. Thank you.

 

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[sgtfda]

Cool. Looks like someone lived there at one time.

 

[deducer]

There allegedly are Apache burial grounds on Music Mountain. Did you read the Kollenborn article about Music Mountain?

I hope you didn't go into Trap canyon by yourself!

 

[cactusjumper]

There allegedly are Apache burial grounds on Music Mountain. Did you read the Kollenborn article about Music Mountain?

I hope you didn't go into Trap canyon by yourself!

The Apache did not have "burial grounds". Tom is of the same opinion.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cw0909]

wow
Trap Canyon ? Canyoneering ? Arizona ? HikeArizona.COM

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

Ive hiked into trap twice by myself. Both times i was successful in hiking more than a mile up into trap canyon and found cave dewellings, very very old signs of humans, and a few things that stood out. In a couple of weeks ive got a trip planned to run down trap east-west starting from hoolie bacon. Ive got some intresting info on trap that im looking forward to scouting out and sharing. Also heard a story about music canyon spring i wanna look into and debunk or prove correct. If anyone has more info please share. Thanks

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

There allegedly are Apache burial grounds on Music Mountain. Did you read the Kollenborn article about Music Mountain?

I hope you didn't go into Trap canyon by yourself!

unfortunately i dont have many hiking pals other than one, so i do most of all my hiking in the supes alone. I do agree thats not a good choice even for the most experienced. But im a little crazy when it comes to the outdoors. Been camping and hiking for a very large part of my life and feel comfortable alone or with people. I have read Kollenborn article, but it didnt shed any light on my end. Good looking tho deducer thanks.

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

wow
Trap Canyon ? Canyoneering ? Arizona ? HikeArizona.COM

This is about the only info you can find on trap other than a few vids on youtube of hikers running down it. But the average hiker has no clue in what to look for when it comes to prospecting or lore of the region.

 

[captain1965]

Hey Everyone, I searched for a while and could not find anything on these two canyons in the forum archive. Hope I'm not reposting anything. I've been interested in Music and Trap canyon for a while and was wondering if anyone had any info to share on those locations. Im going to share some photos of a small cave with rock walls. Let me know what you all think. Thank you. View attachment 1174140 View attachment 1174141

I respect your abilities AG. Crazy place Trap is. Not worthy... Not worthy...

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

I respect your abilities AG. Crazy place Trap is. Not worthy... Not worthy...

lol thanks Captain, those years of Bouldering and tech canyoneering helped with the accent up the canyon. Trap is one of those spots you really need to take your time on and mentally map your route before attempting. Rushing a climb no matter the level of difficulty is dancing with death.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

There allegedly are Apache burial grounds on Music Mountain. Did you read the Kollenborn article about Music Mountain?

I hope you didn't go into Trap canyon by yourself!

deducer,

Trap Canyon is one tough hike. No trail to follow just keep crossing the creek over and over finding the best way to get to the top. The brush is overgrown since the cattle are gone and getting thicker each year. Along the way you find numerous places where native Americans once lived or used as temporary camps.

As for Apache burial grounds, I have to agree with you. The sticking point here is what exactly defines a burial ground ? If you mean a cemetery with well known and many structured graves I have to say no, there are none of them in the Superstitions. And how many dead comprise a burial ground ? 50 ? 25 ? 7 ?

Now I'm no expert and not very smart about these things but in the little I've been able to learn over the years more than one clan of the Sah nde-do-t-an Apache have a burial connection with at least one mountain in the Superstitions they refer to as Dzil daho il. They refer to the places as chidin tuh yo and it is sacred to certain members of specific Apache clans. In 1984-1989 John Hohmann did some archeological examinations in the Pinal Superstition and Dripping Springs Mountains and saw this type of burial in the Superstitions. To a white man and an Apache a "burial ground" could and in some cases does mean two entirely different things. It's all in what you believe to be a "burial ground".

Matthew

 

[deducer]

The Apache did not have "burial grounds". Tom is of the same opinion.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I am not sure whether you meant to say the Apaches "did not have burial grounds in the Supersitions" as they did have burial grounds elsewhere, and were known to have done such things during smallpox outbreaks.

In any case, in that tales of Apache burial grounds in the Supes are only hearsay and as far as I know, uncorroborated or unconfirmed, I have hence used the word "allegedly."

 

[deducer]

Now I'm no expert and not very smart about these things but in the little I've been able to learn over the years more than one clan of the Sah nde-do-t-an Apache have a burial connection with at least one mountain in the Superstitions they refer to as Dzil daho il. They refer to the places as chidin tuh yo and it is sacred to certain members of specific Apache clans. In 1984-1989 John Hohmann did some archeological examinations in the Pinal Superstition and Dripping Springs Mountains and saw this type of burial in the Superstitions. To a white man and an Apache a "burial ground" could and in some cases does mean two entirely different things. It's all in what you believe to be a "burial ground".

Matthew

Very interesting.

I did not know that.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

Trap Canyon is one tough hike. No trail to follow just keep crossing the creek over and over finding the best way to get to the top. The brush is overgrown since the cattle are gone and getting thicker each year. Along the way you find numerous places where native Americans once lived or used as temporary camps.

As for Apache burial grounds, I have to agree with you. The sticking point here is what exactly defines a burial ground ? If you mean a cemetery with well known and many structured graves I have to say no, there are none of them in the Superstitions. And how many dead comprise a burial ground ? 50 ? 25 ? 7 ?

Now I'm no expert and not very smart about these things but in the little I've been able to learn over the years more than one clan of the Sah nde-do-t-an Apache have a burial connection with at least one mountain in the Superstitions they refer to as Dzil daho il. They refer to the places as chidin tuh yo and it is sacred to certain members of specific Apache clans. In 1984-1989 John Hohmann did some archeological examinations in the Pinal Superstition and Dripping Springs Mountains and saw this type of burial in the Superstitions. To a white man and an Apache a "burial ground" could and in some cases does mean two entirely different things. It's all in what you believe to be a "burial ground".

Matthew

Matthew,

That is very interesting. Can you tell us where John Hohmann's report on those "burial grounds" can be found? Was the results found to be from the Holocene period? If so, how old were they?

From what I have heard and read, the Apache had a dread of the spirits of the dead and would not mention their names or go near the places where they were "buried", for lack of a better word. Entombed might be closer to the Apache type of disposal for dead bodies.

A very nice post, although more information would have been nice. On the other hand, your historical knowledge of the Apache is more than impressive.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

I am not sure whether you meant to say the Apaches "did not have burial grounds in the Supersitions" as they did have burial grounds elsewhere, and were known to have done such things during smallpox outbreaks.

In any case, in that tales of Apache burial grounds in the Supes are only hearsay and as far as I know, uncorroborated or unconfirmed, I have hence used the word "allegedly."

Can you provide a source for that information? What was the year provided for the "smallpox outbreak"?

Thank you,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Can you provide a source for that information? What was the year provided for the "smallpox outbreak"?

Thank you,

Joe

Not sure that would change anything one bit.

Second question would be tricky to answer as the Apache didn't call it by the white man's name.

John Cremony in Life among the Apaches mentioned that it took him a while to figure out on his own that what Klo-sen was talking about was the periodic ravages of smallpox.

 

[cactusjumper]

Not sure that would change anything one bit.

Second question would be tricky to answer as the Apache didn't call it by the white man's name.

John Cremony in Life among the Apaches mentioned that it took him a while to figure out on his own that what Klo-sen was talking about was the periodic ravages of smallpox.

deducer,

I didn't read it exactly that way. Rather, I thought he realized that Klo-sen was referring to smallpox fairly quickly. You could, on the other hand, be correct that once Klo-sen mentioned the disease he was slow to figure out what he was describing.

Was there something in there about Apache burial grounds?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I didn't read it exactly that way. Rather, I thought he realized that Klo-sen was referring to smallpox fairly quickly. You could, on the other hand, be correct that once Klo-sen mentioned the disease he was slow to figure out what he was describing.

Was there something in there about Apache burial grounds?

Good luck,

Joe

I guess we perceive things differently.

I believe the Lipan Apaches had such a thing, but while most Apaches may not have had burial grounds in general, that doesn't mean they never had such a thing, especially when imported diseases wiped out entire villages.

You have previously intimated yourself to be an expert on all things Apaches, and so perhaps you would know how little of their history, custom, and beliefs made it to the "white man's records" perhaps because such history existed and were transmitted as oral family history, and were reluctantly passed on to outsiders.

Anyway, I don't really want to hijack this thread- back to Music and Trap canyon.

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

deducer,

Trap Canyon is one tough hike. No trail to follow just keep crossing the creek over and over finding the best way to get to the top. The brush is overgrown since the cattle are gone and getting thicker each year. Along the way you find numerous places where native Americans once lived or used as temporary camps.

As for Apache burial grounds, I have to agree with you. The sticking point here is what exactly defines a burial ground ? If you mean a cemetery with well known and many structured graves I have to say no, there are none of them in the Superstitions. And how many dead comprise a burial ground ? 50 ? 25 ? 7 ?

Now I'm no expert and not very smart about these things but in the little I've been able to learn over the years more than one clan of the Sah nde-do-t-an Apache have a burial connection with at least one mountain in the Superstitions they refer to as Dzil daho il. They refer to the places as chidin tuh yo and it is sacred to certain members of specific Apache clans. In 1984-1989 John Hohmann did some archeological examinations in the Pinal Superstition and Dripping Springs Mountains and saw this type of burial in the Superstitions. To a white man and an Apache a "burial ground" could and in some cases does mean two entirely different things. It's all in what you believe to be a "burial ground".

Matthew

Yes trap is tricky to run up, both times stop at the same spot at a pinch climb i was not prepaired to haul my gear up or do alone. And i Always turn around if alone when i face something of a certain risk. But do you have any more info on the natives that lived there? Why they picked such a narrow slot canyon to live in? I really got a good feeling ive seen a spot that could be a sign of "something maybe cool" thats been covered and marked. But dont want to waste my time risking my butt up a cliff if my storys dont match or im just seeing things. I know theres at least 2 spots that show signs of natives/someone there. But i have found nothing other than stone walls and fire burns in cave roofs. Any more info? I have been told a story from a prospector that he was shot at in trap by a "unknown" person who he thought was protecting a claim/cache or something else. All he said was he would never go back or close to the canyon again. Which is kinda why im so intrested. Lol

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Yes trap is tricky to run up, both times stop at the same spot at a pinch climb i was not prepaired to haul my gear up or do alone. And i Always turn around if alone when i face something of a certain risk. But do you have any more info on the natives that lived there? Why they picked such a narrow slot canyon to live in? I really got a good feeling ive seen a spot that could be a sign of "something maybe cool" thats been covered and marked. But dont want to waste my time risking my butt up a cliff if my storys dont match or im just seeing things. I know theres at least 2 spots that show signs of natives/someone there. But i have found nothing other than stone walls and fire burns in cave roofs. Any more info? I have been told a story from a prospector that he was shot at in trap by a "unknown" person who he thought was protecting a claim/cache or something else. All he said was he would never go back or close to the canyon again. Which is kinda why im so intrested. Lol

Absurd-Ginger

You and I may have heard the same story. I have been in Trap canyon maybe 4 times over the years. Each time looking for something hidden or covered. Trap canyon would not be a good spot to live in even though at one time there was some year around water there. It is however an excellent place to hide or cache something with a great opportunity to go from a lower elevation of the Superstitions to a higher elevation and lose someone in the process who might be on your trail.

Matthew