My abbreviated theory for the Knights Templar treasure in Nova Scotia

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I agree that it must have been quite an experience! I'd have loved the chance to join them!

But that ship did exactly what I had proposed the Templars could not:

. . . have to run the gauntlet, unobserved, past the outposts of Denmark/Norway that would allow "hopping" in spurts across the North Atlantic.

Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland were all under control and colonization of Denmark in the 14th century and prior. I don't know that a fleet of ships transporting knights from France would have been greeted warmly.

 

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[lokiblossom]

I agree that it must have been quite an experience! I'd have loved the chance to join them!

But that ship did exactly what I had proposed the Templars could not:

Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland were all under control and colonization of Denmark in the 14th century and prior. I don't know that a fleet of ships transporting knights from France would have been greeted warmly.

Between the early to mid 13th century until the late 14th century all three, The Faroes, Iceland, and Greenland were solely under control of Norway.

Cheers, loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Up. My Bad. The Kalmar Union didn't occur until 1397. You know those Norse and Scandinavians all look alike.

Denmark, Sweden, and Norway were ruled together under one sovereign ruler in the Kalmar Union, established in 1397 and ending with Swedish secession in 1523. The areas of Denmark and Norway remained under the same monarch until 1814, Denmark–Norway.

 

[petetherocker]

mods can we lock this thread ? nothing new is being offered.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

That's what makes it history and not current events.

 

[Marti12]

Loki,

I am brand new to the site and clicked this thread to gather some
Insight on my interests. I’ve seen your posts in other threads and it lead me here.

I can tell you I enjoyed reading your THEORY on this topic. Doesn’t the general assumption of a theory mean there is more work to do on the topic, to ultimately reach a conclusion of fact or fiction? Isn’t the point of the forum to have a central area where those of similar interests can discuss these ideas and theories?

I say this because the amount of hostility and heat you’ve gotten for stating your theory blows my mind. I’m sure several theories and hypothesis in history have been scrutinized as well. But I can respect someone who is bold enough to provide their theory. Especially someone who will back it up over and over again... and over again.

Cheers to you too man. I hope you keep at it and I wish you success. Perhaps at some point your theory could change.. If it does I’m sure it will be based on additional information you find. WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED PEOPLE.

Without people being brave and bold many of the things we take for granted wouldn’t exist. Without those strong enough to challenge the status quo, we wouldn’t evolve.

We have to accept that powerful figures in history had agendas and reputations to protect. Literally anything is possible.

Thanks for sharing Loki. You gave me a lot of ideas and events to look into further.

 

[DaveVanP]

Hi,,The universal language at the time was Latin . TP

Latin was the WRITTEN language of scholars, legal documents, and the Church.
The language of the English Royal Court was French, until the latter 1400's.

 

[DaveVanP]

Normally, a hypothesis is developed to explain how something works, or why it "is the way it is".
A hypothesis is then REPEATEDLY tested, and if the same results are indicated, then it may be accepted as a "theory". In layman's terms, a "thory" is a "hypothesis" which has been "proven"...more-or-less.

Historical theories are difficult, because the ONLY really acceptable evidence is UN-AMBIGUOUS artifacts, and CONTEMPORARY, FIRST-HAND eyewitness accounts, the authenticity of which has been verified and accepted as fact. "Ancient documents" WITHOUT PROVENANCE cannot be accepted as "support for a theory; "Expert OPINION" by learned scholars should not be accepted as support for a theory - unless UNQUESTIONABLY reliable. If the phases, "could have...", "perhaps", "...is likely...", "...appears to be... or (my favorite): "Could it be...?" are presented as support for a "theory", then the theory is invalid, however, those ARE the phases that a hypothesis is based upon..

A theory normally remains a theory until one of two things happen:
1). it is indisputably proven as FACT...or,
2) evidence is found which brings the "theory" into question...

It takes a TON of evidence to make a theory valid...but only ONE false or unsupported conclusion to make it FALSE.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

That's why history is not a science, like: chemistry, biology, archeology, geology, etc. History is based on written documents, prone to nationalism and bias.

And we all know what you read on the Interweb and in the newspapers is often wildly incorrect or misleading.

 

[lokiblossom]

That's why history is not a science, like: chemistry, biology, archeology, geology, etc. History is based on written documents, prone to nationalism and bias.

And we all know what you read on the Interweb and in the newspapers is often wildly incorrect or misleading.

Hi Charlie, I deleted my post because I had mistaken the quote that I was answering.

Cheers, Loki

 

[tinpan]

Latin was the WRITTEN language of scholars, legal documents, and the Church.
The language of the English Royal Court was French, until the latter 1400's.[/QUOTE

Hi ,I was referring to medieval Europe in general and didn,t mention the English Royal Court TP

 

[lokiblossom]

Part III

This from "The Knights Templar in Britain" by Evelyn Lord, pg 120 "Their main fleet was in La Rochelle, and it was this fleet, berthed away from the theatre of war, that was part of the maritime network linking the order in the British Isles, with the continent."

With the some 10 vessels I premised recently arriving from Cyprus it would be easy to accept the possibility of 18 ships docked at La Rochelle in early September of 1307.
What is called a rumor by detractors of the story from "Holy Blood Holy Grail" of 18 ships leaving La Rochelle, is much more than merely a rumor. It is actually part of a statement made by Jean de Chalons, preceptor of the Temple commandery in Namur during the investigation into Templar activities in Poitou.
de Chalons testimony, now in the archives of the Vatican, "The leaders of the order, expecting the trouble, have fled, and he himself met the brother Gerard de Villiers [Master of France], who had 50 horses with him, and heard people talking that [Gerard] put to sea with 18 galleys and the brother Hughes de Pairaud." To the question, how he managed to keep this secret for so long, he answered, "nobody for anything in the world would dare to reveal it...for if the order's officials would have found out that somebody had let out the secret he would have been killed straight away."
How did the Templars know of the trouble? Actually the King had sent out his secret orders a full month ahead of the arrests to his sheriffs. The Order had friends throughout France and even in the Palace itself
According to a report by Templar Historian Edward Zaborovsky, there were at least 12 very important escapees wanted by the French Crown, one of these men Gerard de Villiers (The Master of France, and many believe the new Grand Master of the Order)was never seen or heard from again. We also discover an inner secret order that should not be a surprise as all orders seem to have an inner circle. In citing a document in the Vatican Archives, Zaborovsky writes, "The brother Hugues de Chalon, the nephew of the visiter and brother of Gerard de Montclair, warriors of the Order of the Sect of the Temple, together with some accomplices from the same sect planned to kill the King." And we also know that during the burning of Jacques de Molay in 1314, he called upon the King and the Pope to both follow him in death within the year. This did happen which leads us to believe the Inner Sect of the Temple was alive and well.
Zaborovsky also writes that any of those who wanted to escape had every opportunity to do so, telling us that at least 2500 French Knights were unaccounted for.
The 18 or so vessels alleged to be at La Rochelle left port with evidently the Templar treasure from Cyprus as well as those treasures held in Paris, sometime in September of 1307 never to be heard from again.
18 vessels, where did they go? There have been many theory's, turning to piracy being one of them, but it is widely understood that many went to Portugal. In Portugal, King Diniz, rather than arrest or prosecute the Templars, reconstituted them into a new order called "The Order of Christ". Any escaping France Templars were warmly welcomed into the order.
History tells us that the Order of Christ was involved in seafaring activities even to the founding of the famed navigators school at Sagres by the then Grand Master of the Order, Prince Henry the Navigator. This Order of Christ is also known to have financed the first great wave of Portuguese seagoing explorations. As a matter of fact, the legendary Portuguese explorer, Vasco de Gama was actually a member of the Order of Christ.
But what of the legends of some Templars escaping to Scotland? At the time it was relatively safe from the arm of the Church and the French King, and there were many Templar holdings already there. In Scotland only two Templars were ever arrested, and those by English authorities who in 1309 had control of a small portion of Scotland which included Holyrood Abbey, where the trials took place.
There was also a small abbey in the western highlands that was built in the mid-13th century for a sister order to the Cistercian's , remember the Templars themselves were Cistercian. Called the Valliscaulians, (latin for "The Valley Fold) the abbey itself was called the Ardchattan Priory. With the events concerning the arrests of the order happening in late 1307, it is doubtful if any news of this could have reached Ardchattan until the spring of 1308.
End of part III

cheers, Loki

This part of the theory has one change, the Valliccaulians (the Valley Fold)were actually a sister order of the Cistercians.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Part IV

Besides the hundreds of Templar houses and the abbeys of MaryCutler and Balantrodach, there is some evidence of a Templar presence in the Western Highlands of Scotland in about 1308. Robert the Bruce while preparing to rid Scotland of the English had a secret meeting at the small Abbey of Ardchattan in early 1308. It is said he met with a leader of one of the Western Clans, but being secret nobody knows for sure. I premise he had met with a group of Templars who had wintered at Ardchattan, more that likely to discover their intentions. At the same time a few English and Scottish Knights in the know (of the inner circle) would have shown up at the Priory.
One of the more famous photos in the Jesus, Mary Magdalene, bloodline theory is of a stained glass window in the small kilmore church on the Isle of Mull, very near to Ardchattan Priory. A photo that obviously shows a very pregnant Mary Magdalene walking hand in hand with Jesus.
There are also carved stone graveslabs in the Western Highlands that some believe represent Templar Knights. This is questioned by many detractors, who claim they only represent local Scottish Knights. Of course this may be true in part, but I have seen most of them and a few must be questioned. And one fact that gets overlooked is that they do represent an immediate change in the type and quality of the actual carvings that occurred in the very early 12th century in this area of Scotland. In other words, it seems that better qualified stone carvers showed up in the Western Highlands at the beginning of the 1300s.
There was quite a bit of Norse descent (DNA) in this part of Scotland, even within the Clan Leaders themselves. The area had been under Norse control only a few decades earlier and in 1308 they were still making voyages to the Greenland Settlements. My premise includes a Norse (Viking), Templar, connection at various times between the acquiring of their first houses in 1128 until the Orders vessels arrived at Ardchattan in 1307. A connection that resulted in the knowledge of a water route to the Vikings Vinland. A map that today could have been drawn on a bar napkin.
With knowledge of a new navigation tool not available to the Vikings, the cross staff, giving them the ability to determine latitude accurately they would, in my opinion, have left for Vinland in early summer of 1308. The ships (possibly 3 or 4) were already some 14 years old and the longer they would wait the older they would get, and there was also the possibility of discovery by English or even French authorities.
The routes the Norse had used for some three centuries contained no over water legs of much longer then around 250 miles, even to the settlement on Newfoundland.
During the heyday of these legends detractors have always maintained that Templar vessels (mostly called galleys) could not have made these voyages as they couldn't carry enough water while the vessels themselves could not take the rough seas of the Atlantic. But with only 250 mile legs, I posit water would not be a problem (it certainly wasn't for the Vikings) and their seaworthiness had already been well proven after years in the Mediterranean. Also the vessels purchased from Venice a few years earlier were of a more seaworthy design than the normal Mediterranean galley and from La Rochelle they had carried on a lucrative wine trade with Briton, Ireland and Scotland with vessels that were not galleys
Certainly the Vikings had made this same voyage 300 years earlier and were still sailing the route as late as the 14th century.

(Vinland, blue apples) cheers, Loki

This had a couple of small adjustments

Cheers, Loki

 

[tinpan]

This had a couple of small adjustments

Cheers, Loki

Hi Some nonsense made up of a stain glass window on the Island of Mull is no where near the true history .Found is the truth is the history of Clan Mcquarie and their most famous descendant Lachlan Mcquarie . Who is buried on the island . Now you insult the founding father of freedom of Australia .How long before you make up rubbish about George Washington. TP

 

[tinpan]

This had a couple of small adjustments

Cheers, Loki

Hi ,The largest part fight elite of the Knights Templar were killed in the battle of Acre .Resulting a rather small depleted force and not the wild outrageous claims of 19 century fantasies .TP

 

[lokiblossom]

Hi Some nonsense made up of a stain glass window on the Island of Mull is no where near the true history .Found is the truth is the history of Clan Mcquarie and their most famous descendant Lachlan Mcquarie . Who is buried on the island . Now you insult the founding father of freedom of Australia .How long before you make up rubbish about George Washington. TP

What or how does the mention of a stained glass window in Kilmore Church insult the memory of any of the Mcquarie's Clan? It is my belief that the artist, Stephen Adams, using a little artistic freedom created a very pregnant Mary Magdalene.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... It is my belief that the artist, Stephen Adams, using a little artistic freedom created a very pregnant Mary Magdalene.

Stephan Adams created that stain glass window during the 1904-1905 restoration of Kilmore Church, so what purpose do attribute your belief concerning his "little artistic freedom" and how it related to the alleged voyage of Templars to Oak Island/Nova Scotia, Poussin, Anson/Shugborough/ Jean Cocteau, and the passing of this "secret hidden" knowledge?

 

[ECS]

...Some nonsense made up of a stain glass window on the Island of Mull is no where near the true history...

It appears that "true history" is not a major concern on this thread.

 

[lokiblossom]

Stephan Adams created that stain glass window during the 1904-1905 restoration of Kilmore Church, so what purpose do attribute your belief concerning his "little artistic freedom" and how it related to the alleged voyage of Templars to Oak Island/Nova Scotia, Poussin, Anson/Shugborough/ Jean Cocteau, and the passing of this "secret hidden" knowledge?

It helps to identify the holy Grail, the Sangraal, now near Annapolis Basin.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

You still have not how all these random people are connected and how the chain of custody of this highly "secret history" was passed onto them and how it helps to identify the Holy Grail/Sangraal you claim or is suppose you know is now near the Annapolis Basin.
So far you have presented loads of random facts as proposed evidence, full of sound and fury that signify absolutely nothing beyond pure speculation.