My mind has been blown!!!!

[pigeonman]

got to see some picks from a bud who shared some finds over the years here in South Jersey Salem Co.the eagle effigy is mind blowing but the large round stone with the writing and horse and soldier/knight carved into it really took the cake.someone handed him a blank check and told him to fill it in for the large carved stone piece but he the owner turned it down. the large hand scaper is also museum quality along with the rest.any thoughts on the carved round stone object?

 

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[sandchip]

I'd have trouble believing if I pulled a flint eagle out of the ground myself.

 

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[Charl]

and I still believe it to be REAL

Which is your right and choice. We just wanted you to understand, regardless of which forum you post it to with your questions, that you will never convince an experienced collector that it is real, in the sense of native made long ago.
The response here is the same response you'll receive from collectors everywhere on the net. Thunderbirds are not genuine and ancient artifacts. And thanks for clarifying that the fishhooks are bone, not stone.

 

[Steve Ia]

In reply to sandchip, I did pull one out of the ground myself, I believe it was 1983. I have always thought it to be real. I know they are a popular item to fake. I have it my best finds plaque right beside an Agate Basin and dovetail and Hardin that are also personal finds.

 

[Charl]

In reply to sandchip, I did pull one out of the ground myself, I believe it was 1983. I have always thought it to be real. I know they are a popular item to fake. I have it my best finds plaque right beside an Agate Basin and dovetail and Hardin that are also personal finds.

People usually suggest "salted" at this point. I admit, I find it hard to fathom that all these thunderbirds were salted to fool collectors. Nonetheless, we're at a place where thunderbirds are simply dismissed. A shame if there actually are real ones. Yet, as Reaper states, none have ever been found in a controlled dig....

 

[unclemac]

I have several of these....

they are "real" but the history of them is more like this...

Aboriginal toolmakers found that glass and ceramic, including ceramic telegraph line insulators, were very well suited to the production of Kimberley points. In fact, the suitability of the new materials coupled with increased demand - from both Aboriginal exchange networks and an emergent 'tourist' trade with non-Aboriginal people - may have influenced the refinement of the techniques used and their size. Finely finished glass points up to 20 centimetres long have been documented.

 

[GatorBoy]

If not salted probably found some white guys trinket...not a Native American artifact.

 

[eastTNJoe]

Most of the feedback has been regarding the thunderbird and how it is likely not ancient…but what the hell is the knight horse rider thing? Where was this thing supposedly found? This is an eclectic collection that has lots of red flags...and I am neither an expert or experienced and I have even heard about the myth of the thunderbird artifact…as secret as the cryptozoological reports of the beast with a large wingspan that plucks toddlers from their yards in suburban Illinois..….interesting, nonetheless...

 

[Charl]

Most of the feedback has been regarding the thunderbird and how it is likely not ancient…but what the hell is the knight horse rider thing? Where was this thing supposedly found? This is an eclectic collection that has lots of red flags...and I am neither an expert or experienced and I have even heard about the myth of the thunderbird artifact…as secret as the cryptozoological reports of the beast with a large wingspan that plucks toddlers from their yards in suburban Illinois..….interesting, nonetheless...

Cryptomundo » That Lost Thunderbird Photo

http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2014/07/thunderbird-sightings-2472580.html

http://www.discoverynews.us/DISCOVE...ckArt/Native_American_Dinosaur_Artwork_3.html

 

[Hitndahed]

Here is another synopsis. It would be extremely difficult to convince an experienced collector. I really know nothing about them, but I do know the reaction is more or less universal by now:

Artifact Forum | Arrowheads.com :: Topic: Thunderbird & Eagle Effigies (1/1)

=============================================================================================================

ANYTIME that artifacts are found that toss a curve into the "ESTABLISHED" and "taught" history those artifacts are always labeled hoaxes, plants or mis-identified. There IS an affort underway, and has been underway for hundreds if not thousands of years to hide the truth of real history. Even human "evolution" is suspect. With many of the African as well as the European ancient man fossil bones not even being human. We as historians and investigators should by now fully realize that Columbus was far from being the "first" to land on North America. Just look at the ancient copper mines of Michigans Upper peninsula for one. It HAS been proven those mines were worked 5000 years ago and the copper mined from then was chemically identified in Europe.
To me,,, this is a lot of food for thought.

 

[Hitndahed]

I really love the finds that no one can explain.

 

[Charl]

=============================================================================================================

ANYTIME that artifacts are found that toss a curve into the "ESTABLISHED" and "taught" history those artifacts are always labeled hoaxes, plants or mis-identified. There IS an affort underway, and has been underway for hundreds if not thousands of years to hide the truth of real history. Even human "evolution" is suspect. With many of the African as well as the European ancient man fossil bones not even being human. We as historians and investigators should by now fully realize that Columbus was far from being the "first" to land on North America. Just look at the ancient copper mines of Michigans Upper peninsula for one. It HAS been proven those mines were worked 5000 years ago and the copper mined from then was chemically identified in Europe.
To me,,, this is a lot of food for thought.

Well, the amount of estimated copper removed in ancient times is often cited to argue the Phonecians, the Mediterranean world's greatest sailors might have "discovered" the Americas. But it is far from a proven fact that they were mining copper in Michigan. Of course, the Old Copper Culture was. I have been involved with research into Pre-Columbian explorations to the New World since the late 70's. I don't have the answers, but, it stands to reason that very few mainstream American archaeologists have bought into the "mined by ancient Europeans" theory. If I can find out any more about the chemical matches you mention, I'll post them, but I know they have been seriously disputed. There are two sides to that conclusion.
A serious critique of "America Unearthed" episode that pushed the "Old World exploitation of Michigan copper theory" As always, or so it seems, the answer is much less cut and dry as the "alternative theories of American prehistory" would have one believe.

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-America-unearthed-s01e03-great-lakes-copper-heist

Dispelling some Myths about the Old Copper Culture

Although focused on the Northeast, we(NEARA, see link below)have spanned the hemisphere in search of evidence for Pre-Columbian contact with the Americas, including the possibility of Old World penetration as far as the Great Lakes. Of course, Viking enthusiasts think the Vikings got that far. Did any Old World civilizations do so long before the Christian Era? We do know that copper was exploited by the Old Copper Culture for thousands of years, as well as later groups like Adena/Hopewell.

Home

I like to say we live in an Age of Conspiracy theories. It started with the JFK assassination. But, by now, there is a widespread distrust in authority in many realms. Not just in politics, but in scholarship and what we are taught in school as well. Nowhere does this belief in conspiracies to hide the truth seem to be more applied to American prehistory then on the History Network's "America Unearthed". The host, forensic geologist Scott Wolter has been strongly applying this modern conspiracy mindset-focus to our prehistory and has been promulgating the very false belief that the Smithsonian has been involved in a conscious conspiracy to hide the truth of American history from the American public. To which I say: poppycock!! BS!! One of his silliest suggestions is that there was a cave in the Grand Canyon containng a wealth of ancient Egyptian artifacts. First mentioned by alternative writer Brian Childress, this story has been shown to be just an old 19th newspaper article designed to boost circulation. No truth to it whatsoever. Yet, Wolter and others are spreading this conspiracy nonsense. He is guilty of the dumbing down of the American public where their own history is concerned. This is a very regrettable development and so typical of the History Network to sacrifice a discriminating debate in favor of utter nonsense. All this is just the modern penchant for promoting conspiracy theories as a means of interpreting the uttering of authorities in any field as lies, designed to hide the truth from us. Really? Is that what is happening now in the peopling of the Americas debate? We seem to have accepted the truth of Pre-Clovis. The Clovis-First model was a reigning paradigm, it most certainly was not a conspiracy theory!!

Yes, there was Pre-Columbian contact. But there is no conscious conspiracy on the part of American scholarship to hide some radical truth. The fact is the folks that bring forth alternative theories often rely on highly questionable sources, like 19th century newspaper yarns.....


Hitndahed wrote:

"I really love the finds that no one can explain."

Me too!

 

[Hitndahed]

Well said Charl,,

I take it you have seen some of the images of artifacts from private collections in that area? To be honest,, it would not suprise me that even King Solomon had his hands in this venture.

Man I love this stuff

 

[Charl]

Well said Charl,,

I take it you have seen some of the images of artifacts from private collections in that area? To be honest,, it would not suprise me that even King Solomon had his hands in this venture.

Man I love this stuff

Here's an interesting piece arguing in favor of Old World exploitation of Michigan copper:

http://www.migration-diffusion.info/pdfdownload.php?id=174&file=1

 

[timekiller]

Michigan was not the only source of copper here in the states,it was being tapped in N.C., Monacan territory,& Great Lakes.Here's a good read on that.As I've been studying it a little myself.
http://apva.org/rediscovery/pdf/mallios_high.pdf

http://www.virtualjamestown.org/paspahegh/copper.html

 

[unclemac]

i have posted this before....imagine the possibilities of Asian contact in this way before recorded history...not to mention Polynesian...talk about adept ancient mariners!
Otokichi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

all in all I think conspiracy theories are a load of hay.....I don't know two people that can keep a secret mare than a day or two...let alone a government full of chatty people.

 

[yakker]

There also an interesting read about Kennewick Man/ Smithsonian did an article. Old bones, new theories. History is history until someone or people prove currently accepted theories wrong. Sometimes it just take a spotlight- the 'light of day' on tangible evidence to change ages-old theories and accepted 'history'. Money often 'changes' the truth. Luckily, technology is getting better every minute- and it's harder and harder to skew the truth. At least one can always hope...

 

[lookindown]

Is there a reliable test to tell the age of a stone artifact?...like a way to know with certainty that a stone point was crafted 3,500 years ago...I know they have radio carbon dating but is there a way to know when it was worked by man...sorry if this is common knowledge but I don't know...thanks.

 

[unclemac]

we go by styles that have been associated with datable strata over an area and period of time.

 

[GatorBoy]

Is there a reliable test to tell the age of a stone artifact?...like a way to know with certainty that a stone point was crafted 3,500 years ago...I know they have radio carbon dating but is there a way to know when it was worked by man...sorry if this is common knowledge but I don't know...thanks.

Unfortunately if someone were to use a test measuring the predictable depletion of a certain mineral over a given period Of time... Similar to a radio carbon test .
.. you would only find the age of the stone itself not when a human altered it

 

[1320]

Is there a reliable test to tell the age of a stone artifact?...like a way to know with certainty that a stone point was crafted 3,500 years ago...I know they have radio carbon dating but is there a way to know when it was worked by man...sorry if this is common knowledge but I don't know...thanks.

It's not common knowledge but yes to answer your question: Thermoluminescence and Tephrochronolgy analysis as well as protein residue testing to a certain extent.