Need All Dredge Users

[H&F909ORO]

Hi All, I am looking into dredging an it's affects on the environment. But why I want to know is if YOU DO THESE THINGS. 1. Clear native vegetation 2. Accidental oil or fuel spills 3. Fecal matter left behind when camping for a while. 4. Alter gravel bars and aquatic habitat 5. Does your dredge ever leak fuel? 6. Fuel your dredge while it's still in the water 7. Do you move a lot of sediment causing turbidity 8. Create a large whole that may discharge mercury used by the old timers.. 9. Dredge during a spawning time 10. Ever see your dredging spot the same way when you return to it after much time has past. 11. Ever see any disturbance of aquatic life. I might have more questions later, but I'm starting with this. I ONLY WANT TRUTHFUL RESPONSES. I stress that I am a supporter of suction dredging. I am trying to find out whether or not these things are truthful. I found these on an environmental site and want to look further into this. All responses are thanked in advance. I appreciate everyone who answers truthfully. PM ME ONLY NO PUBLIC ANSWERS AS STATED. Thanks All!

 

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[wingmaster]

If all the parking lots of gas stations drain into creeks like they do around here then filling your tank with it in the water would be a non issue so would a small amount of oil as well. If its a big issue then they need to have all the parking lots and roads drain somewhere that they can treat the water before letting it go back into a stream, of course I'm sure the government doesn't want to hear anything logical like that they like dealing with the not so smart people who comply to their way of thinking.

 

[Fullpan]

Hi All,

I am looking into dredging an it's affects on the environment. But why I want to know is if YOU DO THESE THINGS.

1. Clear native vegetation
2. Accidental oil or fuel spills
3. Fecal matter left behind when camping for a while.
4. Alter gravel bars and aquatic habitat
5. Does your dredge ever leak fuel?
6. Fuel your dredge while it's still in the water
7. Do you move a lot of sediment causing turbidity
8. Create a large whole that may discharge mercury used by the old timers..
9. Dredge during a spawning time
10. Ever see your dredging spot the same way when you return to it after much time has past.
11. Ever see any disturbance of aquatic life.

I might have more questions later, but I'm starting with this. I ONLY WANT TRUTHFUL RESPONSES. I stress that I am a supporter of suction dredging. I am trying to find out whether or not these things are truthful. I found these on an environmental site and want to look further into this. All responses are thanked in advance. I appreciate everyone who answers truthfully. Thanks!

You can't ask that in a public forum, - if you want truthful answers, ask folks to pm you. The honorable opposition are propaganda experts. They will take anything and turn it into Armaggeddon !!

 

[Fullpan]

Here's another set of questions for fishermen:
1. ever clear, or break branches for casting room ?
2. Ever lose tackle, including leaders, lead sinkers, and hooks ?
3. 3 million licenses issued in calif. each year - ever take a dump behind some bushes ?
4. ever kill a fish ?
5. has your vehicle ever leaked oil in the parking lot ?
6. n/a
7. n/a
8. contribute to the pollution of lakes and rivers by introducing toxic lead ?
9. ever fish during spawning time ?
10. ever see dead fish after you catch and release ?
11. ever catch hellgrammites to use as bait ?

 

[H&F909ORO]

Interesting thanks for the responses. I will edit the post right away. Great point about the fisherman as well.

 

[Bonaro]

Fullpan said it...you cant ask questions like that on an open forum. It's like crack for the enviros. I do appreciate someone looking for truth....pm me

 

[jog]

Here's another set of questions for fishermen:
1. ever clear, or break branches for casting room ?
2. Ever lose tackle, including leaders, lead sinkers, and hooks ?
3. 3 million licenses issued in calif. each year - ever take a dump behind some bushes ?
4. ever kill a fish ?
5. has your vehicle ever leaked oil in the parking lot ?
6. n/a
7. n/a
8. contribute to the pollution of lakes and rivers by introducing toxic lead ?
9. ever fish during spawning time ?
10. ever see dead fish after you catch and release ?
11. ever catch hellgrammites to use as bait ?

You just fell into the whack jobs trap.
This is "EXACTLY" what they are after, were being attacked so blame the fisherman, it just makes it that much easier for them to take away more rights & freedoms. I know that there are some fishing groups out there that are not dealing with reality and they think the whack jobs will never come after them, well I have news for them........ We are at a point where all user groups NEED TO WORK TOGETHER......... Just my two cents on this subject.

 

[Bejay]

Sounds as if you are asking about all my salmon fishing within the tidal influenced estuary and bays along the Pacific coast. Or my duck hunting adventures and building blinds within the same. Or fueling my boat to do either. Or packing out some large game animals I have shot such as elk, deer, bear, moose.....and burying the gut pile or disposing of fish guts. Gee I think I have killed over a thousand fish in my 67 years while fishing......and I even enjoyed eating them, as well as the duck, big game and game birds.

So doing all my hunting and fishing I HAVE cleared native vegetation...even cut a few Christmas Trees during the right season.
Watched the oil/gas sheen on the water behind my outboard...as the exhaust carries it out the portal.
When out in the woods hunting or in the duck blind or boat I take a leak and hang it out over the water...and go to the bank and find a log if need be.
I do fuel my boat and the prop does stir up a lot of sediment in shallow water. Even my oars in shallow water stir up sediment. (bay muds/and soft-shell bay clams.)
I never notice any long term changes to the stream or landscape after nature goes through a season or two of wet stormy conditions (floods/etc).
And YES I specifically target salmon as they attempt to go up river to spawn and make babies.....I kill those adult mature salmon and then enjoy eating them. I even catch and harm a lot of smolts that somehow seem to be able attack and end up engulfing my lures. (they bleed out the gills)
I even watch the PROTECTED seals and sea lions eat the salmon while I fish and the even try to get mine off the end of my line. I watch hundreds of protected cormorants eat smolts.
I try to deter the seal/sea lion takings but it is a $25,000.00 fine for harassing the critters, so the fish and game wants us fisherman to haze the cormorants with our polluting motor boats.

I am a dredger and if you saw my dredge claim you would think you were in the finest well kept place in the great northwest. And the historic trails are kept groomed by me and the camp spot is second to none..... and the creek is gorgeous and wild....with fish that taste great when I decide to fish for them.

All I can tell you is your questions are more applicable to other things I do rather than small scale suction dredging/mining...which has NO adverse impact. Actually it is far less than my other activities....as I am the only one using my claim/creek/camp spot unless other user groups camp nearby and then I go clean up their mess and trash. I carry out a garbage sack (of others close by) left trash often. But no one comes into my spot...as I occupy that domain per the mining laws granted me by an Act of Congress.

I can honestly say the anti crowd is perpetuating lies that have no basis of significance compared to other user groups on the public lands. Heck...go to the most famous natural places/parks/monuments you can think of and look at the human impacts....trails......camping.....etc etc etc.

You might try embracing/encompassing reality instead of "greenie" hype. I doubt if talking to the coyote raiding the chicken coup will gain any support from the chickens....and the miners are the chickens in this scenario....the coyote the "greenies".

I am done with this! Truth has no merit when one is confronting the "greenie" agenda....it is all about projected fears and emotional hype.

Bejay

 

[kazcoro]

Sounds as if you are asking about all my salmon fishing within the tidal influenced estuary and bays along the Pacific coast. Or my duck hunting adventures and building blinds within the same. Or fueling my boat to do either. Or packing out some large game animals I have shot such as elk, deer, bear, moose.....and burying the gut pile or disposing of fish guts. Gee I think I have killed over a thousand fish in my 67 years while fishing......and I even enjoyed eating them, as well as the duck, big game and game birds.

So doing all my hunting and fishing I HAVE cleared native vegetation...even cut a few Christmas Trees during the right season.
Watched the oil/gas sheen on the water behind my outboard...as the exhaust carries it out the portal.
When out in the woods hunting or in the duck blind or boat I take a leak and hang it out over the water...and go to the bank and find a log if need be.
I do fuel my boat and the prop does stir up a lot of sediment in shallow water. Even my oars in shallow water stir up sediment. (bay muds/and soft-shell bay clams.)
I never notice any long term changes to the stream or landscape after nature goes through a season or two of wet stormy conditions (floods/etc).
And YES I specifically target salmon as they attempt to go up river to spawn and make babies.....I kill those adult mature salmon and then enjoy eating them. I even catch and harm a lot of smolts that somehow seem to be able attack and end up engulfing my lures. (they bleed out the gills)
I even watch the PROTECTED seals and sea lions eat the salmon while I fish and the even try to get mine off the end of my line. I watch hundreds of protected cormorants eat smolts.
I try to deter the seal/sea lion takings but it is a $25,000.00 fine for harassing the critters, so the fish and game wants us fisherman to haze the cormorants with our polluting motor boats.

I am a dredger and if you saw my dredge claim you would think you were in the finest well kept place in the great northwest. And the historic trails are kept groomed by me and the camp spot is second to none..... and the creek is gorgeous and wild....with fish that taste great when I decide to fish for them.

All I can tell you is your questions are more applicable to other things I do rather than small scale suction dredging/mining...which has NO adverse impact. Actually it is far less than my other activities....as I am the only one using my claim/creek/camp spot unless other user groups camp nearby and then I go clean up their mess and trash. I carry out a garbage sack (of others close by) left trash often. But no one comes into my spot...as I occupy that domain per the mining laws granted me by an Act of Congress.

I can honestly say the anti crowd is perpetuating lies that have no basis of significance compared to other user groups on the public lands. Heck...go to the most famous natural places/parks/monuments you can think of and look at the human impacts....trails......camping.....etc etc etc.

You might try embracing/encompassing reality instead of "greenie" hype. I doubt if talking to the coyote raiding the chicken coup will gain any support from the chickens....and the miners are the chickens in this scenario....the coyote the "greenies".

I am done with this!

Bejay

Your points are exactly what I was thinking.
I don't think that the OP was trying to put us in a bad light at all. You shouldn't get angry with him.

 

[Bonaro]

Very well said, Bejay

I might add that no matter what activity you choose to participate in, be it dredging , fishing , rafting or bird watching....there is an impact on the environment. Just because that impact is measurable does not mean it is damaging.

A friend of mine operated a boat repair business and he was changing the fuel tanks on a boat. The bilge had fuel in it and the automatic pump came on and pumped about 3 gallons of gasoline into the harbor. The Department of Ecology came in measured and tested everything and slapped a $2000 fine on him then started to leave. He asked them if they were going to clean up the fuel on the water and they simply said "no, it will evaporate".

 

[H&F909ORO]

This thread is not meant to stir up things and sorry that it might have. I am strictly talking about dredging. I myself am a supporter looking for truthful answers I want to know the questions I asked into a PM. I understand that what all of you are saying. All I am trying to figure out is these questions are real or are just lies. Thanks o all!

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

These questions are front loaded. He can use your information any way he wants. Be careful. Maybe it should be stated in a way to show how dredging helps the environment. After all, dredging helps with conservation, economy, education, etc..

One flash flood does more damage than a dredger would ever do. Just my thoughts.

 

[H&F909ORO]

These questions are front loaded. He can use your information any way he wants. Be careful. Maybe it should be stated in a way to show how dredging helps the environment. After all, dredging helps with conservation, economy, education, etc.. One flash flood does more damage than a dredger would ever do. Just my thoughts.

I agree, a landslide would cause greater damage than 100 dredges, it is incredible.

 

[H&F909ORO]

Apparently some people speculate I am a environmentalist. I don't see how getting hostile or making a mockery of the thread will get us anywhere. I will stress Again that I am a supporter of gold suction dredging. Hell I would do it if it was legal here in California. Why would I be a small scale miner and give the greenies info? It's your own personal opinion, but it seems people are very touchy about this topic and it was not meant to stir up a hornets nest. Sorry that apparently it did.

 

[Fullpan]

You just fell into the whack jobs trap.
This is "EXACTLY" what they are after, were being attacked so blame the fisherman, it just makes it that much easier for them to take away more rights & freedoms. I know that there are some fishing groups out there that are not dealing with reality and they think the whack jobs will never come after them, well I have news for them........ We are at a point where all user groups NEED TO WORK TOGETHER......... Just my two cents on this subject.

I have no intention of attacking fishermen, simply stating that the enviros, at this point in time, would never ask the same type of questions of fishermen. Its not a level playing
field - never has been.

 

[Rdg Sluicer]

Can we use some common sense and delete this thread please?

 

[H&F909ORO]

Seems fair, or get rid of me.

 

[H&F909ORO]

How do we delete it? Not sure how.

 

[DizzyDigger]

These questions are front loaded. <snip>

Ladies and Gentlemens...we have a winner..

"Front Loading", or writing questions which require
a "yes" or "no" answer, with the question worded
in a manner that firmly supports their product (or their
side of a debate).

Get you to say "yes" enough times, and then they nail
your hide to the wall with your answers. With the "yes"
or "no" responses as the only choice, you have no opportunity
to place your response in context. At the end of the
session they'll ask you..

"If all these things are true, wouldn't you think that dredging
is bad for the rivers and environment?"

The question itself implies your agreement. Unless you speak loud
enough for them to hear your 'NO", then the only thing in peoples
minds will be that you agreed with that question, as well.

One flash flood does more damage than a dredger
would ever do. Just my thoughts.

OSO slide is a perfect case in point. Right now it's a mudbath from
the slide location all the way to the ocean. The returning steelhead
will hang out in the ocean until that water cleans up..right now they
can't smell their way home, so they stay in the salt water and feed.

H&F..no worries, as it's a great opportunity for folks to understand that
this kind of crap will get tossed at them by the greenie media folks,
and we need to be ready with a socially acceptable response.

Of course, we'd all like to tell them to immediately embark on flying
sexual encounter with a globally rotating lunar body, but then that
doesn't help educate anyone. It wouldn't hurt us one bit to gather a
few attention getting responses to those kinds of questions. Then,
while the person quizzing you is trying to understand what you actually
said, you have a further opportunity to educate them.

#1 is avoiding any questionnaire that requires only a "Yes / No" or
"True / False" response. Those groups pay people a whole lot of money
to come up with a specific set of questions that leads you right down the
trail to what they want you to believe.

These groups are not a bunch of tinhorns when it comes to manipulating
the legal system, so Caveat Emptor!

*************************************

P.S. Bejay: We'd all like to go off about having to deal with
the ridiculousness of those who want to control everyone else's
life, but H&F had no ill intent, whatsoever.

H&F, please don't close the thread. While not the original intent
of your post, these are issues WE NEED to discuss if we're
going to ever stand a chance at overcoming all the propaganda
the "anti-dredging/mining/fishing/peeing/anything they don't like"
groups are putting out.

 

[Jeff95531]

Right on DD. I was thinking front loaded questions (not a term I had heard of but I get it). It is exactly how people are manipulated into saying something they didn't mean. "Guilty with an explanation" still means guilty to a judge.

Here is an example. 100 people surveyed with this question..." what things might young identical twins have in common?"

Looks right? Yes. I totally missed the other 3 responses. They were:

The same father
The same last name
The same address