New site?...with different clue versions?

[somehiker]

As is the "1" above and to the right of the "MEX" just as on the PS. The "1" on the PS containing a small hole at the bisect of the lines of the number itself.

The "M" of the "MEX" on the PS displaying the same splayed legs of the "M" referencing the scratched heart below the "coazon."

Both it and the 8-N-P are lightly scratched in, and are obvious shortcuts as opposed to the more permanent, deeply carved instructions that exist more as a riddle/parable than anything else.

The question is why? It would seem obvious that this is a second author. Did he chose to disregard the elaborate instructions in favor of leaving a cheatsheet out of exasperation? Or was he worried that the instructions were too elaborate?

Not a "cheat sheet", but definitely additional information. And not really necessary to locate the primary objective IMO.
I now suspect that "MEX" is part of the "why" of the larger story, and that it, for the last person at that location and in possession of the stone (or stones), was his way of leaving a mark of ownership (MEUS) upon both site and map.

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...d96a57b5e82f9092455e62714957277b0a33ac16.html

Where the "MEX" in my photo appears, is across the upper forehead of this figure...as viewed from another angle...which is likely an image of one of his ancestors.

 

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[somehiker]

The Mexican artist-priests who created the illustrations of their history, one of which I have taken these cropped insets from, had their own "Santa Fe", a hybrid form of Christianity as their new faith. And by the mid 1500's when these illustrations are believed to have been completed, had most likely seen all of this with their own eyes. That had to have been within their own lifetimes and capability of remembering so many such details of what was visible on site at the time....after 1519, IMO .

Going back to the MEX shot I posted earlier, I've added a larger version of the inset I used in the photo above.
Obviously a snake, but shown as kind of "cute" or "cartoonish" by the illustrator, it's a detail that indicates a clan association.
I believe the artist was putting a bit of flair into the finished product, that he based on this...

 

[deducer]

Not a "cheat sheet", but definitely additional information. And not really necessary to locate the primary objective IMO.
I now suspect that "MEX" is part of the "why" of the larger story, and that it, for the last person at that location and in possession of the stone (or stones), was his way of leaving a mark of ownership (MEUS) upon both site and map.

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...d96a57b5e82f9092455e62714957277b0a33ac16.html

Where the "MEX" in my photo appears, is across the upper forehead of this figure...as viewed from another angle...which is likely an image of one of his ancestors.

In that regard, then in your opinion, the meaning and placements of the three "MEUS" implies what?

My assessment of the 8-N-P and the other scratchings as a shortcut is based on my observation that at the base of the larger priest, when you look up and towards the top, the individually carved 8-N-P lines up. As I have pointed to you in a photo I sent you, the carved 8 faces outward, and is above the "R" carved on the inside side of the rock wall, the same wall that the field triangle points to. Following the 8-N-P allows me to bypass having to figure out the pointed cross sequence, and the lines of instructions, save for the first one.

In the grail symbol that points towards the fauces, there is a heart and inside of it is a "1" which is a reminder that esta bereda, and it es peligroza.

 

[somehiker]

In that regard, then in your opinion, the meaning and placements of the three "MEUS" implies what?

My assessment of the 8-N-P and the other scratchings as a shortcut is based on my observation that at the base of the larger priest, when you look up and towards the top, the individually carved 8-N-P lines up. As I have pointed to you in a photo I sent you, the carved 8 faces outward, and is above the "R" carved on the inside side of the rock wall, the same wall that the field triangle points to. Following the 8-N-P allows me to bypass having to figure out the pointed cross sequence and the four lines of instructions.

To me the use of the word itself implies a personal attachment to three things which can be attributed to or had belonged to the creator of the LH and CP drawing. The Mendicant Orders had limits, as did other faiths. The answer as to "who", will be found I am sure, in what each "meus" reveals.
The three positions indicated on the LH and especially the more precise locations relative to the adjacent words....seen on the CP drawing as direction and distance..... are indicative of a mindset that organized and separated the personal from the collective IMO.



Have you considered the possibility that the field triangle, and the easily traveled shortcut that shows the way, could be a deliberate deception ? After all, why set any unauthorized someone upon a path that might be difficult to follow and to something difficult to find and understand ?

 

[deducer]

Have you considered the possibility that the field triangle, and the easily traveled shortcut that shows the way, could be a deliberate deception ? After all, why set any unauthorized someone upon a path that might be difficult to follow and to something difficult to find and understand ?

That what the field triangle points to may be a deception or a false path is certainly a possibility, and I've always held the belief that the "faith" symbol above all this, isn't there as an encouragement, but as a stipulation- in that faith is required to complete this path. Those that were responsible for this, certainly did things the hard way and were not known for cutting corners.

On the other hand, a plethora of signs point to this specific fauces. Perhaps too much for it to be a false path.

Or perhaps, the entrance is the easy part, and what lies beneath is the difficult part, the peligroza part. If this path is indeed underground, why signify that you have to go 18 places? Is it a measure of distance? Of progression?

If it were simply a tunnel, all you would have to do is just follow it to the end. Now, that would be too easy for me.

 

[somehiker]

That what the field triangle points to may be a deception or a false path is certainly a possibility, and I've always held the belief that the "faith" symbol above all this, isn't there as an encouragement, but as a stipulation- in that faith is required to complete this path. Those that were responsible for this, certainly did things the hard way and were not known for cutting corners.

On the other hand, a plethora of signs point to this specific fauces. Perhaps too much for it to be a false path.

Or perhaps, the entrance is the easy part, and what lies beneath is the difficult part, the peligroza part. If this path is indeed underground, why signify that you have to go 18 places? Is it a measure of distance? Of progression?

If it were simply a tunnel, all you would have to do is just follow it to the end. Now, that would be too easy for me.

There are 18 equally spaced dots along that carved line, with a chevron (or a 7, identical to the 7 at the bottom right of the lower TS) preceding the first dot, and a circle in circle "doughnut" at the end. I believe this all, especially the 18 equal spaces to be very important. For any trail on the surface, which also could be followed as a "marking" on the landscape that should match the twists and turns of what is on the stones, there would be no real need for any special monuments etc. Nor would there be any need for equal spacing, unless they are relevant to the warning. On the surface a series of man-made hazards, if employed in this case, would likely have a "shelf-life" due to the environmental factors. Underground, they would not, which is one of the reasons I favor my tunnel theory. Also that rigging 18 hazards along that tunnel, but showing their exact positions on the map, would allow only those who would understand this to find and avoid, bypass, or de-activate them.

 

[somehiker]

Jeff:
As I understand it, an arrow always implies motion, in that it says "go this way".
That it only appears once as a true arrow, across the point where the blade meets the handle on the dagger, and points to the top of the "1", signifies IMO, the beginning of the final leg of the journey.

 

[somehiker]

I believe every map has its own characteristics and clues. The maps were made to dismiss any way to failure. So, if you can't make out the one you will use the other. All are for the same region not more big than a small mountainside.

As far as mountains in the range go, it IS a small one. Which is why it is called "SOME(R)O" on the Title Cross.
That the missing letter "R" of the Spanish word meaning small/insignificant has been transferred over to the upper left corner of the Map Cross, above the Heart, tells you where "El Cueva" is located IMO.

 

[markmar]

As far as mountains in the range go, it IS a small one. Which is why it is called "SOME(R)O" on the Title Cross.
That the missing letter "R" of the Spanish word meaning small/insignificant has been transferred over to the upper left corner of the Map Cross, above the Heart, tells you where "El Cueva" is located IMO.

The letter "R" which is missed in some words and is depicted separatelly in another stone maps, has the same meaning and is the only evidence which shows how the maps are Spanish in origin. Is a Spanish treasure symbol used in Spanish treasure maps. When you will understand what is its meaning, for sure you will understand how all your work on these stone maps was in vain. IMHO

 

[Al D]

Nentvig was considered to be an exaggerator and his writings, must be taken with a grain of salt.

Still waiting for you to elaborate on this

 

[somehiker]

The letter "R" which is missed in some words and is depicted separatelly in another stone maps, has the same meaning and is the only evidence which shows how the maps are Spanish in origin. Is a Spanish treasure symbol used in Spanish treasure maps. When you will understand what is its meaning, for sure you will understand how all your work on these stone maps was in vain. IMHO

It hasn't been in vain so far Marius.
In fact the results I have obtained to date go well beyond what is shown on any of the maps, including certain "paper" maps we have all seen and given much thought to. But I do like your attitude, seeing that it proves how far apart we are and probably will remain till the end of this trail.
With that said, I will offer you this, despite knowing that you will claim it as meaningless in any way, which to your own theory I'm sure is true .....



Interesting that in the document from which the bottom inset has been taken, the symbol also has a very similar meaning to that on the Perfil Mappa....a "house" or pueblo associated with a hill and water.

 

[markmar]

It hasn't been in vain so far Marius.
In fact the results I have obtained to date go well beyond what is shown on any of the maps, including certain "paper" maps we have all seen and given much thought to. But I do like your attitude, seeing that it proves how far apart we are and probably will remain till the end of this trail.
With that said, I will offer you this, despite knowing that you will claim it as meaningless in any way, which to your own theory I'm sure is true .....

View attachment 1723183

Interesting that in the document from which the bottom inset has been taken, the symbol also has a very similar meaning to that on the Perfil Mappa....a "house" or pueblo associated with a hill and water.

Wayne, I actually believe the CASA is the two-room house ruin that Waltz used in his clue. CAVERNA is the shallow cave which encounter at one side the CASA.
This clue was depicted in two Peralta maps, in one as Casa Caverna and in the other as Caverna con Casa.
If you look at my current avatar , you will see a GE image of the CASA inside the Latin heart, with the contour of the land above it to be similar with the semi circle in the map.

 

[deducer]

There are 18 equally spaced dots along that carved line, with a chevron (or a 7, identical to the 7 at the bottom right of the lower TS) preceding the first dot, and a circle in circle "doughnut" at the end. I believe this all, especially the 18 equal spaces to be very important. For any trail on the surface, which also could be followed as a "marking" on the landscape that should match the twists and turns of what is on the stones, there would be no real need for any special monuments etc. Nor would there be any need for equal spacing, unless they are relevant to the warning. On the surface a series of man-made hazards, if employed in this case, would likely have a "shelf-life" due to the environmental factors. Underground, they would not, which is one of the reasons I favor my tunnel theory. Also that rigging 18 hazards along that tunnel, but showing their exact positions on the map, would allow only those who would understand this to find and avoid, bypass, or de-activate them.

I didn't mean to imply that there is no tunnel- but that it's simply a tunnel, even if booby-trapped.

I have thought at length about this and believe the most realistic scenario is that the fill excavated from one or more "heart" chambers, and elsewhere, was then returned to seal the entire length of the tunnel, with 18 markers sequentially placed and having to be unearthed, to give you an idea of where you are, progression-wise. This would require a dedicated "company" of men to excavate. Or perhaps there are 18 caches, sequentially buried.

If it were me, I would not be setting my booby-traps an equal length apart. That would make things too predictable, and easily defeated. The first, second and maybe third would probably do harm, but after that, I'd know what to expect and when.

 

[deducer]

Still waiting for you to elaborate on this

I think he means the accounts Nentvig makes of eagles with two heads, a spider that bites off the hoof off of a horse, rocks with liquid in the middle, (likely enhdyros) and a vaquero that was miraculously cured by the curative powers of the Jaramatraca tree, after being stomped in the face by his horse.

 

[deducer]

They lost most of their church artifacts when the Pima’s looted and burned a number of churches during the revolt in 1751 and the Jesuits never got them replaced, read “A Missionary in Sonora” by Joseph Orch or “Rudo Ensayo” by Juan Nentvig, both were Jesuits there in 1751

The revolt in 1751, led by Luis of Saric whom Fr. Keller had called a "Chichimec dog" was actually the second major uprising by the Pimas in that time frame. The first was in 1740 in the province of Sinaloa, and consisted of the Yaqui, Pima, Mayo and other tribes.

The first major uprising of the Natives against the Jesuits was in 1695, beginning with the Tubutama mission, and resulted in Fr. Saeta being "martyred." The Pimas and others were angered by harsh treatments from their Opata overseers.

However, caching "treasure" or reliquaries, e.g., the "church goods" was well practiced by the Jesuits by then, and so while loss of life and limb may have been substantial, loss of what we would term "treasure" was probably minimal.

 

[Al D]

I think he means the accounts Nentvig makes of eagles with two heads, a spider that bites off the hoof off of a horse, rocks with liquid in the middle, (likely enhdyros) and a vaquero that was miraculously cured by the curative powers of the Jaramatraca tree, after being stomped in the face by his horse.

It appears to me that Nentvig is describing that which is told to him by the Pima, I doubt that he was given to flights of fancy and exageration

 

[arcana-exploration]

Jeff:
As I understand it, an arrow always implies motion, in that it says "go this way".
That it only appears once as a true arrow, across the point where the blade meets the handle on the dagger, and points to the top of the "1", signifies IMO, the beginning of the final leg of the journey.

If it as an arrow that moves on the ground, and only appears let's say at a certain time of the day, I believe this is one way you would picture it. and arrow not only pointing the way but the arrow itself in movement. IMO. Just thinking out loud here. Certain markings on the stones may signify, time of day. yes? Thanks, Jeff.

 

[Al D]

However, caching "treasure" or reliquaries, e.g., the "church goods" was well practiced by the Jesuits by then, and so while loss of life and limb may have been substantial, loss of what we would term "treasure" was probably minimal.

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not true, then Joseph Och must be exaggerating, now there is an account which I believe is stretched. However, I do recall that according to Sedylmayer, the revolt of 1751 took the Jesuits by total surprise

 

[somehiker]

If it as an arrow that moves on the ground, and only appears let's say at a certain time of the day, I believe this is one way you would picture it. and arrow not only pointing the way but the arrow itself in movement. IMO. Just thinking out loud here. Certain markings on the stones may signify, time of day. yes? Thanks, Jeff.

Everything I've located out there, of what is shown on the stones, can be seen anytime there is daylight.
The only difference the position of the sun makes, is to make it a bit tougher to make certain things out when it's so bright that it hurts the eyes, or that it's too low and shadows are long.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne, I actually believe the CASA is the two-room house ruin that Waltz used in his clue. CAVERNA is the shallow cave which encounter at one side the CASA.
This clue was depicted in two Peralta maps, in one as Casa Caverna and in the other as Caverna con Casa.
If you look at my current avatar , you will see a GE image of the CASA inside the Latin heart, with the contour of the land above it to be similar with the semi circle in the map.

Another GE image ?
How about a photo taken by yourself, with your own camera, for a change.
Get on a plane and just go. Only then will you stand a chance of finding anything that is real, rather than imagined from looking at a sat view or someone else's long shot photos.
In the end, you will be happy that you did make the trip.