New Thinking On Depth

[Michigan Badger]

Okay, right now we need another post on the depth about as much as we need boils on our...ah, noses.

But I was justing thinking (no comments), over the years (1 or 2) I've been experimenting with lots of midrange to expensive metal detectors. The one thing I've noticed is, just because a machine gets "the best depth" doesn't mean it's the best machine out there in an actual hunting situation.

Are you with me in this?

Here's my thinking and you can add--subtract--agree or whatever--BUT, to me the two MAJOR (there are more) features are:

1) Depth

2) Target ID

While one needs a good depth, depth alone is worthless (or nearly so) if the target identification is not present. However, the best target ID in the world is junk without depth.

It's sort of like two sides to one coin---depth and target ID go together.

Is anybody here following me?

While we've been spending so much time discussing either depth or target ID, what we should be thinking is both features at once.

Depth without a clear easy to use target ID is like a car without wheels.

I think most high priced VLF detectors today have great depth (some a little better than others). The thing that separates the SUPER machines from the weak ones is target ID.

Are other things also important? YES! But I just wanted to express my thinking as to what I now consider the two crucial points.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[ZumbroKid]

Well does everone agree with the two most important features Zeb has posted? Do not confuse the term Depth with Depth readout. These are two totally different terms.

 

[ZumbroKid]

Iron hunting, what some would not dig others would get excited about. Depends on where you are hunting and what for.

 

[slow sweeper]

Needing good depth on your detector is a given. As far as TID is concerned I don't think it matters how expensive your detector is or how accurate it is in air tests or out in the test garden. Many times if there is a trash item or iron next to or above a good target you will still get an "iffy" TID at best. That's why I believe there will always be goodies out there to find. Some people rely a little too much on their VDI to decide on whether to dig or not. And if a target is at the end of a detectors "reach" the TID will not always be accurate. Add to the equation highly mineralized soil and that makes accurate TID even tougher. Some detectors require a faster sweep speed than others to achieve the best results. In a trash filled environment that detector will have a harder time recovering from dealing with trash to give a proper ID on a nearby coin or piece of jewelry.
Having said all that it would be hard to disagree that a combination of good depth and accurate TID is very important.

 

[Michigan Badger]

I agree with slow sweeper's comments.

The point I think I'm trying to make is that we should be concentrating more on a machine's ability to separate and analyze targets. We should not always rely completely on the ID features, but they sure can help at times (trashy areas).

I've air and ground tested machines that had supreme depth but I found little with them in the actual hunting environment.

In most areas, the ground is filled with metallic ground substances or trash metal. To find a good target one must be able to separate it from all the surrounding bad elements.

We pretty much have the depth we need now to hunt most locations.

It's the target? circuitry that really wins or loses the battle today in general coin/relic hunting.

Why am I suddenly thinking this way? I just bought a Tesoro DeLeon. Granted, like all detectors it has its strong and weak points. However, while testing the ID meter, I was absolutely amazed at it's abilities. I even covered a silver half with a pile of paperclips and it still identified the target as 95 (silver). I've never seen anything like this before in 37 years of hunting. And, it is lightening fast!

I've used the meter machines before and some are fairly good. But this puppy is usually on or very close to the type of metal. It hasn't failed yet with iron.

I never have been a meter person and I've written many times about how I don't trust them. I'm now planning to pay very close attention as I hunt with this machine over the next year.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not selling Tesoros nor do I care what others use. This thing just has me so blown away right now.

 

[hollowpointred]

I agree with slow sweeper's comments.

The point I think I'm trying to make is that we should be concentrating more on a machine's ability to separate and analyze targets. We should not always rely completely on the ID features, but they sure can help at times (trashy areas).

I've air and ground tested machines that had supreme depth but I found little with them in the actual hunting environment.

In most areas, the ground is filled with metallic ground substances or trash metal. To find a good target one must be able to separate it from all the surrounding bad elements.



We pretty much have the depth we need now to hunt most locations.

It's the target? circuitry that really wins or loses the battle today in general coin/relic hunting.

Why am I suddenly thinking this way? I just bought a Tesoro DeLeon. Granted, like all detectors it has its strong and weak points. However, while testing the ID meter, I was absolutely amazed at it's abilities. I even covered a silver half with a pile of paperclips and it still identified the target as 95 (silver). I've never seen anything like this before in 37 years of hunting. And, it is lightening fast!

I've used the meter machines before and some are fairly good. But this puppy is usually on or very close to the type of metal. It hasn't failed yet with iron.

I never have been a meter person and I've written many times about how I don't trust them. I'm now planning to pay very close attention as I hunt with this machine over the next year.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not selling Tesoros nor do I care what others use. This thing just has me so blown away right now.

zeb, im curious, when you ran your tests, were they air tests or items buried in a test garden?

 

[Michigan Badger]

zeb, im curious, when you ran your tests, were they air tests or items buried in a test garden?
[/quote]

I knew someone was going to ask this.

I wasn't so concerned with depth as I am with target ID. I know that to judge depth we need to get under the soil type in which we plan to hunt.

What I did was I used a large plastic trash can and turned it upside down. I placed a silver half on the can bottom (it has a round indentation), I covered the coin with (6) plastic coated steel paperclips, and placed a very large book over it (4 inches maybe). See, our ground is frozen solid so I can't get my targets in the soil yet.

Just tried this same thing again and this time I dumped about 30 paperclips over the coin so that I could hardly see the coin. This time it registered iron. But with 6 clips right on the coin there's no problem to ID the coin. It locks on silver and doesn't jump around.

I do these sorts of tests in the winter when I buy my new machines for the year. So far (knock on wood) these tests prove to be very close to what I find during the summer while hunting.

Now remember, I'm talking ID here not depth.

 

[littlehugger]

I agree with Zeb.
Depth is important. You need reasonable depth to be successful.
Target ID is very important too.
Now, I do not mean your detector has to be able to tell you its a 1930 Buffalo nickel, in Very Fine condition with a nick in the upper right reverse!
A good ID machine is one that gives you enough info to make your own, correct decision.
A machine that gets good depth, with effective ID, you trust. If you are used to false signals, you will be a lot less likely to dig that deep signal.
But if your detector gives you good, reliable info, you are better able to make, and trust that decision.
Thats why I like meters as well as varying tones.
Interesting test.
Hugger

 

[bobm31]

"Why am I suddenly thinking this way? I just bought a Tesoro DeLeon. Granted, like all detectors it has its strong and weak points. However, while testing the ID meter, I was absolutely amazed at it's abilities. I even covered a silver half with a pile of paperclips and it still identified the target as 95 (silver). I've never seen anything like this before in 37 years of hunting. And, it is lightening fast!"

Zeb, I am going to try this with my ACE250...it has great discrimination too...we'll see!
Bob

 

[Michigan Badger]

"Why am I suddenly thinking this way? I just bought a Tesoro DeLeon. Granted, like all detectors it has its strong and weak points. However, while testing the ID meter, I was absolutely amazed at it's abilities. I even covered a silver half with a pile of paperclips and it still identified the target as 95 (silver). I've never seen anything like this before in 37 years of hunting. And, it is lightening fast!"

Zeb, I am going to try this with my ACE250...it has great discrimination too...we'll see!
Bob

Most detectors will detect the silver even with the clips on top of the coin but what I'm interested in is the meter ID reading.

Your ACE probably will do it. It's a great machine.

 

[rjnail]

i started hunting when there was no target id machines on the market, just went by how the sound was, and i still do go by sound more then looking at the id, depth is what im looking for, id i like but deeper coins u cant go by the target id,

 

[Michigan Badger]

i started hunting when there was no target id machines on the market, just went by how the sound was, and i still do go by sound more then looking at the id, depth is what im looking for, id i like but deeper coins u cant go by the target id,

Yes, I agree. It would be great if we could always trust our ID meters.

Well, soon now I'll be off line for a long time. Work calls me away.

I'll probably be back in the spring.

Just in case I don't get the chance later I'll say so-long. You guys down south got-it-made

 

[bakergeol]

Well we are just going to have to live with the poor ID with depth issue for a VLF. From the mighty Explorer to the lowly Radio Shack detector they ALL have the same problem. As expressed before the theory I like about depth and ID is that the deeper you go the more your detector reads ground iron mineralization. Good targets read toward the iron end the deeper you go.

They may build better VLFs but the problem will always exist. The solution is different technology. We are sort at the end of the road at what we can do with VLFs.

Pulse Induction may be the ultimate solution as I can? already see this on my Goldscan 5. This PI is just not affected? by severe mineralization and the tones remain the same regardless of depth and mineralization. Bury a penny or dime at it's limit of detection and it will always ring in at a low tone(my settings) whereas all iron regardless of size or depth will always ring in at a high tone(Yes all bottle caps). Granted it may be many years before PI technology can be applied for the coinshooting arena but it will come. What else is there for the future?


George

 

[bobm31]

I've been thinking about this "depth subject" and to my way of thinking, here in North Texas, 6" is deep enough to detect anything in this HARD BLACK CLAY SOIL that we have here. Anything deeper is just too hard to dig, so I keep my sensitivity at about 50%.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[ZumbroKid]

Future Series advertized in Lost Treasure magazine, claims metal objects detected at 80 feet. New Tech. detectors are here for 2006.

 

[Lee-MI-MI]

"Why am I suddenly thinking this way? I just bought a Tesoro DeLeon. Granted, like all detectors it has its strong and weak points. However, while testing the ID meter, I was absolutely amazed at it's abilities. I even covered a silver half with a pile of paperclips and it still identified the target as 95 (silver). I've never seen anything like this before in 37 years of hunting. And, it is lightening fast!"

Paper clips, especially insulated paper clips are not a good test. Think about how hard it is to detect a gold chain versus a gold ring of the same mass.

Do your same test but use a nail, steel washer or nut next to or on top of the silver. I expect you will find a great difference.

When I want to "play" I place the targets under some concrete patio blocks. They are usually 1" to 1-1/2" thick. Easy to layer them to provide depth and I feel they would more closely agree with actual ground conditions. If you cannot find a good spot try placing a few under your targets to block out buried trash. I find my basement is a good place to play.(No re rod in the concrete floor.)

 

[Monty]

I use a Garrett GTI 2500 which is noted for its target ID feature. However, it (I) still get fooled by a mass of melted aluminum as an example. I always encounter these anywhere there has been a bond fire such as on a beach, near a campground, college rally point, etc. Monty

 

[Michigan Badger]

I tried the Tesoro with some thick rusty iron. If the iron totally covers the silver coin I get an iron readout. If I place it 4 inches away from the coin I can get a double signal of iron/silver. The meter hits on the iron bar and bounces over to the silver bar, etc.

Oh well, enough of these games! The fact is I won't know what this machine can do until I can get outside. I believe from what I've seen that it's a very good detector (probably the best I've ever owned) and if I get it to where there's something to find I'll do alright.

The ground here is still like cement. I've made lots of good target ID's but can't dig any of them yet.

Here's my take on the "my detector is better than your detector" thing. I'm sick of it. I remember when lonewolfe got sick of it and I should have followed him out of this.

In the future I'm going to try to avoid even writing about the machine I'm using. I change brands often and there's just no constructive reason for me to do so.

I think the cement that holds this forum together is that fact that it's primarily a FINDS kind of forum. We have less of the detector review thing here and I now believe that's the way to go.

All top brands are good and it's more the user than the machine.

 

[ZumbroKid]

Is this why lonewolf is not posting? I have not seen much from him for a while. We had exchange emails the other day. He made no mention of why he is not posting lately.

 

[beeper]

It has been said, on most detectors, you can figuare depth to be about a hundred dollars an inch. ie: a $200.00 dector will give about 2" a $600.00 detector about 6" etc. but with the reports of this Ace kinda changes things.

when speaking of depth vs target id, it should be noted the high end detectors "minelab" 3500 etc don't have a target id. kind of interesting.