obtaining permission

[OldSean]

I understand the desire/necessity to obtain permission from the land owner(s) before detecting. I have run into a couple of situations where I don't know how to go about obtaining permission. I would appreciate any help.

1) A large woods with no obvious structures or a large farmers field. How do you find the owner?

2) A state university. A private college. Who do you contact in any large corporate or state land owner? Its not like they have a VP in charge of metal detecting.


3) Can a renter give permission or do you need to contact the owner?



Thanks for all your help. Keep swinging. OldSean

 

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[Pointman]

These are some great questions. Concerning the woods and fields, my only experience was talking with the neighbors and sometimes you can only go away with a name. I have a lot of leads sometimes at the end of the day without actual permission.

I have obtained permission from renters when they don't care to contact the owner's and then I just go for it, but a lot of times the renters don't want to make the decision themselves. I will ask them to contact the landlord if it isn't too much trouble in that case. It is much easier to get a "no" in that case, because you are not actually doing the asking and it is easier for the landlord to say no over the phone. Usually it is better to just get the landlord's information yourself and the renter's name and address and go to the car and call.

 

[cactusrat]

For woods and farmland, the county tax office will have a record of the land owner.

As for #2, ask the person in charge.

If the renter gives permission, the land owner can still run you off. It’s best to ask the land owner. See tax office for a owner info.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

1) I hunt random woods all the time, if not posted or fenced. As for "farmers fields", it depends on the "feel". Because where I'm at (leaf vegetables in coastal valleys of CA), all our "farmers fields" are enormous mega coorps, not small-time farmer-Bob type stuff. Endless miles of row-crops, that .... there's nothing to stop anyone from just driving out on the dirt roads. I mean, the only thing they're concerned about here, is crop theft, and recycle metal theft (dingbats that go steal copper and aluminum from pipes and harvester equipment). We have often researched and found where old homesites were (mid 1800s) on what is now just furroughed ag. crop land. And I suppose if we were to try to track down "owners", it would be some nameless faceless coorporation in another distant city or state .....

2) State university would be public property. So if public has access to the athletic fields and lands (ie.: nothing to stop anyone from going there to "jog the track" or skip stones on the pond, etc...), and if there were no express rule saying "no metal detectors" (which I highly doubt there ever is), then .... I would just go. I hunt public university land all the time (JC's, etc...) and don't have a problem. Example: There's a JC in a certain city in CA, with a sports stadium that dates to the early 1950s. The bleachers have been a silver bonanza for us when we snipe under the metal slat seating (which was fashioned on an slopes over-looking the stadium). This stadium is simply open during off-times, d/t people go there to exercise, practice shot-puts, etc... So we've never felt the need that we had to ask (anymore so than anyone else who uses this public ground), and have never had a problem. But .... I mean ... you've got to use a little common sense: don't go snooping around "obvious historic monuments", or being an eyesore in front of an over-zealous archie or something.

As for private universities: technically yes, you'd need permission.

3) Yes, a renter can give you permission. They have certain rights to the use of the property, which subrograte down to them. For example: if you rent an apartment, you don't need to ask your landlord: "may I have a guest over for dinner?" or "may I whistle dixie?", etc... There's always deemed to be subrograted rights that the renter has. And sure, the landlord can come say "you can't do such & such" if he wants. But in that case, it would be between him and his renter, NOT the landlord and you. If someone gives me permission (even if just a lowly laborer/employee, or a renter, etc...) I never argue with it.

 

[ShOwStOpp3r]

what about an old run down abandoned farm house?...i seen an ideal location but this place looks like its been abandoned for 30 years out in the middle of nowhere,,is there a simple way to find who owns it and possibly contact them? would a county tax office give you the name and their contact information to a stranger?

 

[harleyglide]

The noble thing to do is ask permission ! My only problem is with the thieve n locals who rob the place. I've had a lot of problems with scavengers and metal knuckleheads who steal anything not nailed down at some of my property's ive acquired..

 

[cactusrat]

what about an old run down abandoned farm house?...i seen an ideal location but this place looks like its been abandoned for 30 years out in the middle of nowhere,,is there a simple way to find who owns it and possibly contact them? would a county tax office give you the name and their contact information to a stranger?

Yes, the county tax office can give you the info.

 

[cudamark]

what about an old run down abandoned farm house?...i seen an ideal location but this place looks like its been abandoned for 30 years out in the middle of nowhere,,is there a simple way to find who owns it and possibly contact them? would a county tax office give you the name and their contact information to a stranger?

The owner of a particular piece of property is public record. You don't have to "ask" anyone. It's posted on the county web site or the files are available for viewing down at the county administration building.

 

[jeff of pa]

I understand the desire/necessity to obtain permission from the land owner(s) before detecting. I have run into a couple of situations where I don't know how to go about obtaining permission. I would appreciate any help.

1) A large woods with no obvious structures or a large farmers field. How do you find the owner?

2) A state university. A private college. Who do you contact in any large corporate or state land owner? Its not like they have a VP in charge of metal detecting.


3) Can a renter give permission or do you need to contact the owner?



Thanks for all your help. Keep swinging. OldSean

My Personal Opinion.


1) No trespassing signs, Signature, or Tax Site online, or post office, or Resident Closest to the Woods.

Although If No signs & large woods, and If not State Game Land, I usually don't worry anyway


2) A state university. A private college.never tried, But if you don't get shot by a car load of scared cops, while trying to enter these days,
the Main office would be my guess

as for any large corporate or state land owner otherwise. back to who pays the Taxes ?
Or who is operating on the land, or I usually don't worry anyway

Too many Variables to give an solid answer

3)The Renter is paying the Bills, I go with the "Renter" Yes the owner can Over rule the renter,
But so can the renter over rule the Owner.

I say the person most Likely to see me (Re: Who is paying the Bills,
to treat the property like their Own ? Who pays if there is Damage ?
Who gave a Security Deposit ?

 

[ShOwStOpp3r]

great advice on this thread...took mental note

 

[Old Bookaroo]

OldSean:

This is just my opinion - I am not an attorney. I will brag a bit and point out I wrote the first articles on treasure hunting and the law published in the old th'ing magazines. Before those it wasn't a topic that got a lot of attention beyond KvonM's THM's.

Whether a renter can really give you permission to hunt probably depends on state law. The question comes down to - who owns what you might find? If the law is it belongs to the land owner, then it's pretty clear that permission from the renter or leaseholder won't mean much because that person isn't the owner.

If the law is "Finders Keepers" you might have a much stronger case. Although I would still expect a fight if word got out.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

OldSean:

This is just my opinion - I am not an attorney. I will brag a bit and point out I wrote the first articles on treasure hunting and the law published in the old th'ing magazines. Before those it wasn't a topic that got a lot of attention beyond KvonM's THM's.

Whether a renter can really give you permission to hunt probably depends on state law. The question comes down to - who owns what you might find? If the law is it belongs to the land owner, then it's pretty clear that permission from the renter or leaseholder won't mean much because that person isn't the owner.

If the law is "Finders Keepers" you might have a much stronger case. Although I would still expect a fight if word got out.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

bookaroo, thanx for your insight. I seem to recall your writings in the old TH magazines

Ok, what you're saying about "ownership". Of found-items being a factor, apart from whether or not someone can allow a guest could simply be there, in the first place, ...... hhhmmm. Ok, that seems to be an issue of "technical" vs "realistic". Because if we start down THAT path (of who owns said-found-items), then that merely opens up a whole pandoras box of ridiculousness. For example: If I find a mercury dime (let's say a 1916d in perfect shape, worth $5k). If I found that in a city or county park (where there's no prohibitions on detecting). And if I walked in to city or county hall, held up the coin for a city or county bureaucrat or lawyer there to see. And I tell them: "Hi. I found this coin worth $5k on YOUR land, in YOUR park. Can I please keep it for my own fun and enjoyment to sell on ebay for my own enrichment? Or does it belong to you, the city, since it was found on YOUR land?" You tell me bookaroo, what do you think that person is going to answer? OF COURSE they will say "you can't keep it." I mean, duh. And .... heck, .... they could even cite some laws that back up such an answer: Like laws that forbid "harvesting" or "collecting", and "taking" and so forth. But honestly, did anyone care, or notice, that you found such a coin (and stand there looking over your shoulder with a coin-book studying each coin you found?)

So while what you are saying may be "technically" true, NONE of us runs our lives on such nuances. If so, you might as well stay home and give up detecting. Because I gaurantee you, if such things bother a person (that something found on land other than their own), then .... what the heck are you into the hobby of metal detecting for? Unless you own vast acreage of your own. Because the minute you step out your front door in the morning, you're on someone else's land.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tom in CA:

The best policy was articulated by "Black" Jack Haskins - first man to set eyes on the Concepcion since Sir William Phips.

"Plan for Success."

In this case, it means if you are after a serious find, get a written agreement with the landowner ahead of time.

Coinshooting in the park - if it's legal - probably isn't going to create any problems for you. Particularly if you keep your nice finds to yourself.

As for the large recoveries? There are only two main problem causes - failure and success.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[cudamark]

The only problem with that philosophy is that you don't really know what you're going to find until you find it. You go shoving legal papers in the face of a land owner and you're going to end the search before it begins. Unless it's a known hoard site, you're better off doing it on a hand shake.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

cudamark:

By all means - stick with what works for you!

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[beez0404]

You can use GIS maps to find out who the land owner is currently. A GIS map (geographic information system ) at least in my county, shows me the current owner, tax records, parcel report, list of all owners. Sometimes the address of the landowner. All you have to do is be able to find the parcel in question on the map. Hope this is helpful.

 

[dokc]

May want to be careful with the places that "look abandoned". In my state they changed the laws for areas like pasture land. Because of the thefts of copper and other items on those properties where the landowner has given permission/agreements with oil/gas wells, electric towers and pipelines they no longer have to post "no trespassing" signs but rather the trespasser now has to prove that he has permission from the rightful owner to be there. So now those old rundown cool looking farmhouses you have to think twice about.

 

[cudamark]

What state is that?

 

[dokc]

Oklahoma

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

May want to be careful with the places that "look abandoned". In my state they changed the laws for areas like pasture land. Because of the thefts of copper and other items on those properties where the landowner has given permission/agreements with oil/gas wells, electric towers and pipelines they no longer have to post "no trespassing" signs but rather the trespasser now has to prove that he has permission from the rightful owner to be there. So now those old rundown cool looking farmhouses you have to think twice about.

dokc, let me see if I understand this correctly about Oklahoma new law: If the person has to prove he has permission from the rightful owner to be in a certan location, then, how about this:

You invite a friend over to your home for a backyard BBQ. You tell your friend "I'll be back in 5 minutes, I'm going to run down to the 7-11 to get some more beer and briquets". So your friend is sitting your back porch while you run your errand. Ok: if an LEO happens to drive by, sees someone on your porch sitting there. And the LEO questions your friend. You're trying to say your friend has now broken the law, if he lacks a written permission to be there?

If that's the case, do you therefore give written permission to each and every guest, when they come in the door to your house?