Odyssey Marine Article...

[trinidad]

Well, Vox, maybe it´s time you show your sources or links where you base this kind of complot.

 

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[mariner]

Vox,

That all sounds very complicated. As far as I can tell, there is no link between Sea Hunt and Odyssey, and between Juno/La Galga and Mercedes,
except to the extent that Spain has used the same 1902 Treaty as part of its argument in both cases.

And I still don't understand why Spain would have offered a salvage contract to Sea Hunt in 2003 when the Court of Appeals gave them full rights over those wrecks in 2000. I do not believe that financial gain has been Spain's motivation in their interventions over the last five years or so, and I cannot understand why they would have wanted to let Sea Hunt salvage any of their wrecks.

Mariner

 

[Vox veritas]

Well, Vox, maybe it´s time you show your sources or links where you base this kind of complot.

Very simple Juzgado de Instrucción numero 4, Cadiz. Diligencias previas 2881, año 2005.
Good reading.
On the complot, not a theory of mine, is in many newspapers in Spain. But obviously these journalists are lying and other in the stock market tell the truth!
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox,

That all sounds very complicated. As far as I can tell, there is no link between Sea Hunt and Odyssey, and between Juno/La Galga and Mercedes,
except to the extent that Spain has used the same 1902 Treaty as part of its argument in both cases.

And I still don't understand why Spain would have offered a salvage contract to Sea Hunt in 2003 when the Court of Appeals gave them full rights over those wrecks in 2000. I do not believe that financial gain has been Spain's motivation in their interventions over the last five years or so, and I cannot understand why they would have wanted to let Sea Hunt salvage any of their wrecks.

Mariner

Mariner,
yes, very complicated, but sometimes miracles happen. The agreement did not like and had to sweep the house. The top official of the Ministry of Culture was charged in the same case as me. Follow the many coincidences of the Sea Hunt case, and so on. Well, I do not believe in coincidences, and history has shown me so.

 

[SEAHUNTER]

Alexandre
A nice list, but I think you missed the point. Could you show us a report and the photos to go with it, or is that for archaeologists only? We could all learn something here if you would share with us.
Seahunter

Seahunter

As I have posted above, I have some of those documents online (link also above).

Also, I have posted a lot of photographs here on TNET, look for example, for the Namibia Shipwreck Update thread

Alexandre
I looked at the Namibia shipwreck thread. Are you talking about the four pictures of two coins on dry land?
Seahunter

 

[jeff k]

Odyssey PR...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyssey-Marine-Exploration-pz-2105902586.html?x=0&.v=1

 

[jeff k]

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/yaomhcd

 

[Vox veritas]

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/yaomhcd

Very soon we will reach "Operation Bahia 2" and all the garbage. Give it time!

 

[trinidad]

Vox, we've already read the garbage. The stuff (I wont call that information) wrote on ABC (even with spies and all) is exactly that. And being you an expert researcher on AGI and Simancas, that worked for all kind of companies, it sounds at least "rare" that you agree with the "sound" of this article, that is something close to a "big brother" on that kind of institutions.

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox, we've already read the garbage. The stuff (I wont call that information) wrote on ABC (even with spies and all) is exactly that. And being you an expert researcher on AGI and Simancas, that worked for all kind of companies, it sounds at least "rare" that you agree with the "sound" of this article, that is something close to a "big brother" on that kind of institutions.

Trinidad,
I do not know about other historical researchers. I know personally from many years ago Victoria. I've always worked for lawful purposes and/or to prepare projects for institutional or subject to administrative institutions. My credentials attest to this. I want to remember that now there is no need any credentials to undertake historical researchers in Spain. Any citizen can access with your ID card. This was a move that changed with the current government, as before, as I said, it was necessary to have a credential letter of introduction.
Of course there should be forbidden for a historical researcher can access the consultation documents whose purpose is illegal. The problem is that in Victoria, very professional and serious, she was not told the whole truth and surely she will be "entangled" with the ghosts permits of Asuntos Exteriores, whose ministry of culture denied the existence.

 

[trinidad]

I didn't say a thing about the great researcher Victoria Stapell is. That goes with out saying. I've just said that the article is a piece of sh... And yes, I remember how easy it was to get a credential to obtain the old "carnet de investigador". Not big deal. I think information must available for everyone. If not, we have the danger that someone would propose to keep it in monasteries or something like that. Why I have to tell anybody the object of an investigation of mine if I want to keep it confidential? Why I have to get exposed to somebody eye if I don't want it? To see and study historical files should never be a question of preventive security. It's not the knife but the hand that use the knife what kill somebody or just cut the bread. And you give for stated that Victoria Stapell was misleaded or something. Don't run so fast and wait for the end of the show. Anyway, did you know the whole truth when you researched for the people aboard the Louise? I'm sure you didnt because, as you, I think there should be forbidden to consult historical documents with an illegal purpose. I say more, it should be forbidden anything that comes with an illegal purpose. Categorically, illegal purposes should be illegal.

 

[Vox veritas]

I didn't say a thing about the great researcher Victoria Stapell is. That goes with out saying. I've just said that the article is a piece of sh... And yes, I remember how easy it was to get a credential to obtain the old "carnet de investigador". Not big deal. I think information must available for everyone. If not, we have the danger that someone would propose to keep it in monasteries or something like that. Why I have to tell anybody the object of an investigation of mine if I want to keep it confidential? Why I have to get exposed to somebody eye if I don't want it? To see and study historical files should never be a question of preventive security. It's not the knife but the hand that use the knife what kill somebody or just cut the bread. And you give for stated that Victoria Stapell was misleaded or something. Don't run so fast and wait for the end of the show. Anyway, did you know the whole truth when you researched for the people aboard the Louise? I'm sure you didnt because, as you, I think there should be forbidden to consult historical documents with an illegal purpose. I say more, it should be forbidden anything that comes with an illegal purpose. Categorically, illegal purposes should be illegal.

About the people of Louisa, I signed an agreement that said that everything would be legal and with proper administrative permissions. When I started to see strange things, I disconnected. All this is written black on white and shaped in the case "Bahia 2". Besides officially denounce what was happening. So .....

 

[Panfilo]

No matter how much I read and re-read this Spanish press article in today’s ABC, for the life of me I can’t make any sense of it all. Do the Spanish bureaucrats actually believe that closing down or limiting the access to their historical archives will curtail the ongoing plunder of their underwater cultural heritage? First thing they must realize is that true underwater pirates don’t need any historical document to find and pillage a centuries old wreck. Historical research is mainly (not solely but mainly) performed by respectable companies that like to work in the open and abide by the law. There are of course exceptions as in any field of endeavor. Pirates, unscrupulous as they are as a whole, have no sense of the precious value of history or of the preservation of cultural artifacts or of their meaning or true intrinsic value. They are interested in gold and silver or anything that will bring a quick buck. To think that these persons are going to learn how to read antique Spanish ( cortesana, procesal encadenada, etc.!!!) on their way to plunder some wreck is something that my imagination can not fully comprehend. There are normally enough wrecks out there that the fishermen are finding tangled in their nets to supply a huge illegal market for such pirates. The market for documentation of “interesting” wrecks exists today and always will exist and you don’t have to go to Sevilla to get them, normally the internet is the correct tool.

The moment you start limiting or censuring the access to information, for whatever purpose or reason, you have taken the first step in becoming a totalitarian State. Who is to say why someone is researching in any archive? Just because some unscrupulous people perform illegal abortions doesn’t mean you should close the library section that houses gynecological information or does it? Sad picture for the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage…oh, I forgot, the UNESCO already solved that problem.

 

[Darren in NC]

Do the Spanish bureaucrats actually believe that closing down or limiting the access to their historical archives will curtail the ongoing plunder of their underwater cultural heritage?

No more than outlawing guns will stop them from being used in crime. More legislation always makes it difficult for the honest guy and does little to stop criminal activity.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Panfilo Hola, You make a lot of sense, but what you forget is, attaching history to a item multiples
the price, Look at the Atocha for example.
you will never stop the illegal trade, but if they don't know were to look, they won't find them.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Spain has learnt some valueable lessons.
Ozzy

 

[trinidad]

Do you have any proposal, Ossy? Only the "right" people could go into an historical file? Who will decide the "right" people"? It sound scary and medieval.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Do you have any proposal, Ossy? Only the "right" people could go into an historical file? Who will decide the "right" people"? It sound scary and medieval.

The Information should be there to benefit people that use it correctly and not for commercial gain.
And by that I mean for historical purpose's, Like history books that attach information about the people and their story. you can then see who owned these relics and a cold piece of metal can become human.
But these items should be available for everyone in musems and not in my private collection.
I did have a question for you trinidad, I am very curious, what is your back ground.
Ossy

 

[trinidad]

Why so much prevention against commercial gain? How do you think Victoria Stapell pay her rent and food and other stuff? Working honestly, researching and selling that information to the people who pay for it. It's that bad? Must it be forbidden to people as Stapell or Vox Veritas to make a living from researching in historical files? Because this is a commercial gain. Or when you say commercial gain you mean "recovery and salvage companies commercial gain". It's been a conquest to open all the historical files here in Spain to the citizenship, don't undone that. And go against the people who broke the law, not easy people that just read old papers.

 

[Panfilo]

Attaching history to an item will not necessarily multiply its price Ossy; if the wreck was excavated illegally more likely then not it will land the pirates in jail. Example, let’s suppose for an instant that an enterprising group of Spanish pirates decide to plunder the Santisima Trinidad (not a good example…not much gold here) and they all learn paleography very expediently, go to Simancas and find all there is to know about the ships construction it’s cargo, etc. Do you honestly think they are going to advertise on the internet: “Fabulous bronze breech cannon recovered from the Santisima Trinidad for sale for $8,000”? Not likely my friend Ossy, this is just another ill conceived notion for the protection of mankind’s patrimony that will in no way help solve the real problem: the disappearance of antique wrecks by the dredging of old ports and bays, the replenishment of beaches, landfills and the construction of buildings over antique ports, trawling by fishermen destroying every day hundreds of wrecks worldwide and the fortuitous finds by fishermen and recreational divers of wrecks. I don’t see any real effort by governments at attacking these real causes for the destruction of historical patrimony.

One can only wonder and be perplexed at the concept that limiting access to archives will somehow deter the rampant destruction of our underwater heritage.

 

[Philvis]

Ossy,
You really do contradict your value system when it regards historical heritage being protected. You may want to visit one of Spain's victims of conquest so you can get a grasp on the reality of the cultural heritage they obliterated. Visit my wife's homeland of Peru for instance. You should check out Cusco and all it's Inca majesty...oh wait, most of it was decimated by the Spanish. All the "cultural" items of value were stripped down, stolen, and melted to be sent back home to the treasury of the Kingdom of Spain.

By closing the archives to only what you consider legitimate academic interest is soooooo 16th century in thinking. What is Spain scared of? Are they afraid someone else is going to find some shipwrecks that contain the remnants of South American cultures they destroyed? Spain just needs to let go and realize they are no longer the conquerors they were in the 16th and 17th century. I find it amazing the Spanish government can cede defeat to Al Qaeda and submit to their wishes, but when it comes to plunder from the 16-18th centuries they stand firm!

Oh and Capt Dom...it does because it can!