permit for beyond 3 miles out?

[Darren in NC]

Does anyone know if federal jurisdiction is 12 or 24 miles out now? I've heard about Clinton signing the 24 mile boundary, but does anyone know whether there are court rulings involving such? Seems I should know this by now, but I don't. I don't think there is a permitting process for federal waters, so how is it handled? Do they typically allow the state to handle it even if the wreck is located beyond the state's three mile mark?

Has anyone found and worked a wreck beyond three miles? What was your experience?

Best to all,
Darren

 

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[J@J salvors]

Territorial rights extend in most countries to three miles, a distance left over from a time when defensive shore batteries had limited effective range. Thus, a foreign vessel could approach enemy shores no closer without fear of being fired upon. In the U.S., the states are granted dominion over this area, while up to 12 miles is the contiguous zone under Federal control. The 200-mile economic zone is designated to keep foreign nations from fishing off American reserves. All inland lakes and waterways are state controlled.

This came from
http://www.e-monsite.fr/treasures/rubrique-1067155.html
Hope It Helps
Joe

 

[riobravo]

hi Darren,
to be honest things may change before i finish this reply,but, i have personally worked several sites out of the state jurisdiction, which is three miles, but there are a set of variables that can effect permitting, one instance we were required to obtain a benthic survey to ascertain any possible damage from turbidity that could effect state waters although our project was outside the state limits.
you are required to have a corp permit ( a federal faction of the gov.) for any type of overburden removal, dredging, blowing, etc. within u.s. waters.
these statements are my understanding and should not be construed as law.
i also would be interested in comments on this subject........
JAS

 

[Darren in NC]

Seems like there's a difference between territorial waters and a contiguous zone. On top of that, I couldn't find anywhere that stated that Clinton's proclamation was approved by the U.S. Senate. Did a little research and came across the following info...


On September 2, President Clinton signed a Presidential Proclamation formally extending the United States' contiguous zone from 12 nautical miles to 24, claiming jurisdiction of these near shore waters and doubling the area within which the Coast Guard and other federal authorities can enforce U.S. environmental, customs and immigrations laws at sea.

The U.S. claims a 12-mile territorial sea and now claims a 24-mile contiguous zone. A nation's territorial sea is that area claimed as an extension of the mainland, with the coastal nation claiming jurisdiction over the resources and submerged lands and the right to enforcement in the area. The contiguous zone is an area beyond the territorial sea in which a nation may exercise more limited control such as that necessary to prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration, or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea.

The Convention of the Law of the Sea, ratified in 1994, allows a nation to create this contiguous zone. More than 130 nations have now signed onto the treaty. The United States has not. The matter awaits ratification from the U.S. Senate, but since the 1980s the United States has pledged to abide by the provisions of the treaty even though not an actual party to it.

I'm still not sure what all this means. I'd like to check out a potential wreck 18-22 miles out, but I have no idea where to begin a permitting process. JAS, where did you begin with your wreck?

 

[riobravo]

hi Darren,
please be advised that i am employed by a man of knowledge untold, and my experiences barely encompass a decade i can professionally give testimony too.
but to answer your question, my first response is federal admiralty court, we have multiple attorneys, and i can recomend some depending on your jurisdiction.
dosent sound like much help,are you in u.s. waters.............

 

[Chagy]

hi Darren,
please be advised that i am employed by a man of knowledge untold, and my experiences barely encompass a decade i can professionally give testimony too.
but to answer your question, my first response is federal admiralty court, we have multiple attorneys, and i can recomend some depending on your jurisdiction.
dosent sound like much help,are you in u.s. waters.............

Yes he is in U.S. waters

Chagy....

 

[Darren in NC]

Chagy is right. It's in US waters.

...dosent sound like much help...

Actually it's been the most help so far Federal Admiralty Court, eh? Sounds like a good start. I'll look forward to talking to you more in a few weeks. Thanks for the tips so far. After we do a few initial dives, I may want to secure the services of one of the attorneys you know.

All the best,
Darren

 

[rssharpetx]

Darren,

I think as posted fed is the way to begin (with a lawyer in hand). If you are near NC state waters there will be a few more hoops to navigate. We have worked for Dept. of interior MMS in and around NC state waters as well as US and there are some loop holes. One is claim site is physical oceanography study site. ie put a current meter and let it record. If your site really pans out I can lease you one for say $10.00 us dollars and you pay shipping. You then retrieve data and can post a brief report 1 paragraph + send data to nc state, mms etc. I can help you with contacts. I dont know what you have to do blow holes ( removal of over burden) . AS I am sure you know NC state can be vary protective and seem to have arms longer than the reported 3 miles.

Good Hunting

Scott

 

[Darren in NC]

Thanks, Scott. I really appreciate your offer. I may take you up on it.

If you are near NC state waters there will be a few more hoops to navigate.

How near? I am looking at 15-19 miles beyond the three mile mark. It's actually in SC, not NC, but I assume the process will be similar.

 

[FISHEYE]

For florida As far as the state jurisdication goes... it extends 3 miles out on the east coast and 10 miles out on the west coast.I was told this in 2004 from the
Division of Historical Resources
Bureau of Archaeological Research
500 S. Bronough St.
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0250
(850) 245-6335

 

[Peg Leg]

If I understand what is being said here is that if you were to work a wreck that is 35 miles out in the Gulf you do not need anyones permission. Is this correct?
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

Peg Leg

You are not correct. Take the Titanic for example. In international waters it is a matter of determining which country's court can adopt jurisdiction and interpret the appropriate rules and conventions. In the case of the Titanic, for example, it was a US court, located in Philadelphia I think.

Mariner

 

[capt_t]

I know this is an old topic, but just a couple questions. 3 miles out on the fl east coast is under Fl laws, right? And is it 12 or 24 miles out for federal law? So does the St. Augustine protected area which is 10.5 miles N of St Augustine inlet to 4.5 miles S of Mantanzas inlet go out for 3 miles? Any help would be appreciated.
Capt_t

 

[Donovan]

Darren,
Get a nautical chart of the area you are interested in. On the chart is a line that shows exactly where state and federal waters are in that area. Sometimes the line will vary based on where it was measured from.....Like the measurements are from an offshore island or from the coastline.
Splash,
Donovan

 

[Darren in NC]

Thanks, Don, but I know how to find a line on a map Your reply doesn't fit with my question at the top.

I was simply asking what jurisdiction the federal gov't has beyond the 12 mile territorial waters. If someone finds a wreck beyond twelve miles, say at 30 miles out...does the 24 mile contiguous zone apply to wrecks, or for that matter the 200 mile EEZ (exclusive economic zone)?

As I understand it, the feds can still govern wrecks between 3-12 miles, but beyond that, int'l salvage laws apply.

 

[Donovan]

Darren,
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, it's just that those lines are the first place to start. Plus, I am not sure if there is a hard and fast answer to your questions. What you can do legally in the various zones varies widely from area to area not to mention the age, ownership and/or nationality of a site. Also what was traditionally the rights of salvors have come under increasingly restricted scrutiny. It is in fact a very complicated question with an ongoing result that will most likely change with the vagaries of the wind and whatever personality or entity thinks at the moment, that they have jurisdiction.
At one point I worked under the jurisdiction of the State of Florida. Florida claimed waters that were traditionally federal. A supreme court special master was appointed to redraw Florida's boundary based on a suit brought by fishermen to the courts. His decision " The Marris decision. " Redrew the boundary to the original State waters then the lines were redrawn and renegotiated several times over several decades and only the current lines are the most recent result. Then you throw in treaties and agreements with various other countries.....well things just get more complicated don't they ?
Best of luck,
Donovan

 

[spez401]

I just wanted to throw a little aside in here. I think it was J@J salvors who said that rivers and lakes are state controlled. That is only true to a point. If the waterway is considered a "Navigable Waterway", then it also falls under the Federal Admiralty Rules, and not state rules for "legal proceedings". Navigable Waterways are basically any waterways or watercourses that can be used in the furtherance of interstate commerce. Rivers like the Hudson in NY and the Mississippi are Federally controlled, along with the Great Lakes. These are just the big obvious ones.

What it means is that if there are any legal proceedings, they are done in federal rather than state court. Salvage and damage rules are those governed by Admiralty law, and not state law

steve

 

[Peg Leg]

Let me see if I have this right.
What you are sayig is that IF a waterway runs from one state to the other then it comes under Fed laws.
BUT what if a river like the St. Johns River were carrying products for Interstate commerce or International commerce would this apply-I THINK NOT.I believe that the waterway must run through one state to another.
RIGHT OR WRONG?
But here again is the problem.
If you are transporting commercial products of anykind you come under different laws just like if you are traveling down the Intercoastal water way and say your boat is 80 feet long the County you are traveling through can not board your boat. Only the Coast Guard is allowed to board your boat?
This really becomes involved.
PEG LEG

 

[jeff k]

"As I understand it, the feds can still govern wrecks between 3-12 miles, but beyond that, int'l salvage laws apply."

That's correct. The Titanic was a special situation signed by four countries, but has no legal authority to stop someone from salvaging her. The agreement does stop a salvager from selling artifacts or doing business in those four countries which include the U.S., England, France, and I think Canada.

 

[spez401]

Peg Leg

You're right. It does get really involved. Any navigable waterway ends up falling under Admiralty Rules for Federal Court in the US. But again, this is the law. It is rarely clearcut, and often flexible.

When I first got out of law school, I worked for a firm that did admiralty law as a majority of its practice. We dealt with international shipping, collections, seizing property, and on occasion salvage. In the few years that I worked there, I discovered that rarely are things clearcut when it comes to waterways. It is an important distinction, however because of the awards that can be recieved or lost in Admiralty as opposed to state courts, and the jurisdictions involved.

For example, if you were to salvage a wreck in Narragansett Bay (RI), State law applies to any "treasure" recovered. However, if someone were injured working that same wreck, State law doesn't apply, Federal Law does. If however you wanted to construct a dock or mooring, farther up into the bay, into the "rivers" that go inland, Federal laws now apply and you must deal with the Army Corps of Engineers.

My point was not necessarily who has control of the wreck site itself, but where it would be fought over in court. The distiction lies in the classification of the waterway. If it is a self-contained lake, it is probably not a "navigable" waterway. If it is a huge body of water, like lake meade or, havasu, or the great lakes, it will likely be considered "navigable" for jurisdictional purposes