photographic evidence of 200 years of jesuits in Aust.

[Oroblanco]

Jeff wrote

In order to make this thread a Width that could be read I Had to
Decrease the Size of this Map Way Down.

THANK YOU JEFF - my apologies for not taking that step. When I tried posting it, it showed as a smaller image that you could click on to enlarge it, which obviously did not work when done.

The history of the Jesuits is one of numerous expulsions and even an order from the Pope for them to disband, which they apparently disobeyed, founding a now famous college in the US during the period when they had been ordered to disband "forever". (Georgetown University founded by the Jesuits in 1789, while the order had been disbanded 1773 and not allowed to return until 1814 - fair proof that the Jesuits certainly did NOT obey the Pope very well) Wiki has a fair article on the history of their suppression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

The pope (Clement 14th) died shortly after his order disbanding the Society of Jesus, leaving rumors of Jesuit assassination to linger for centuries. Their secret activities are not well documented but a few do exist. In modern times the Society denies that they ever had any secret mines or riches, pointing to the personal vows of poverty taken by all members - ignoring the fact that actual ownership of such mines/riches were held by the Order and/or the Church. The tremendous wealth accumulated by the Order during the period of their greatest activities is only found among the records of pirate raids on various churches and missions, which is fragmentary at best. It is interesting too that while there were quite a few Dutch pirates and privateers, none of them ever attacked any Jesuit church or mission...

Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

First, and foremost, the Jesuit Order was NEVER disbanded, it was merely suppressed.

I agree with this statement in part, and must respectfully disagree in part. Yes the Society of Jesus DID NOT disband, however they HAD been ordered to disband by the Pope. Here are a few extracts from the Brief of Suppression, quote

We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal.

(the whole relevant paragraph)

"Actuated by so many and important considerations, and, as we hope, aided by the presence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit; compelled, besides, by the necessity of our ministry, which strictly obliges us to conciliate, maintain, and confirm the peace and tranquility of the Christian republic, and remove every obstacle which may tend to trouble it; having further considered that the said Company of Jesus can no longer produce those abundant fruits, and those great advantages, with a view to which it was instituted, approved by so many of our predecessors, and endowed with so many and extensive privileges; that, on the contrary, it was very difficult, not to say impossible, that the Church could recover a firm and durable peace so long as the said Society subsisted; in consequence hereof, and determined by the particular reasons we have here alleged, and forced by other motives which prudence and the good government of the Church have dictated; the knowledge of which we reserve to ourselves; conforming ourselves to the examples of our predecessors, and particularly to that of Gregory X. in the general Council of Lyons; the rather as, in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever, of its houses, schools, colleges, hospitals, lands, and, in short, every other place whatsoever, in whatever kingdom or province they may be situated; we abrogate and annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitutions, even though confirmed by oath, and approved by the Holy See or otherwise; in like manner we annul all and every its privileges, indults, general or particular, the tenor whereof is, and is taken to be, as fully and as amply expressed in the present Brief as if the same were inserted word for word, in whatever clauses, form, or decree, or under whatever sanction their privileges may have been conceived. We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal. We do likewise order that the said jurisdiction and authority be transferred to the respective ordinaries, fully and in the same manner as the said generals, &c. exercised it, according to the form, places, and circumstances with respect to the persons and under the conditions hereafter determined; forbidding, as we do hereby forbid, the reception of any person to the said Society, the novitiate or habit thereof. And with regard to those who have already been admitted, our will is, that they be not received to make profession of the simple, solemn, absolute vows, under penalty of nullity, and such other penalties as we shall ordain: Further, we do will, command, and ordain, that those who are now performing their novitiate be speedily, immediately, and actually sent back to their own homes; we do further forbid that those who have made profession of the first simple vows, but who are not yet admitted to either of the holy orders, be admitted thereto under any pretext or title whatever; whether on account of the profession they have already made in the said Society, or by virtue of any privileges the said Society has obtained, contrary to the tenor of the decrees of the Council of Trent.

from an English translation online at:
http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-suppression-bull.html

Lamar also wrote:

to translate further "Until some unknown time in the future".

So "FOREVER" must mean around 32 years right? For the Society of Jesus was allowed to "return" in 1814, thanks to a new Pope being in the Holy See. The Jesuits obviously did NOT obey the orders of Pope Clement, for we know they continued to be active, and as cited earlier, founding a University in the USA during the time when they had been ordered to disband. I must respectfully disagree with your very liberal Latin translation there amigo, for the Latin phrase Ad infinium means "on to infinity" and NOT to some point in the future, as this would directly contradict "infinity".

A quote from The Catholic Encyclopedia

In the Brief of Suppression, the most striking feature is the long list of allegations against the Society, with no mention of what is favorable; the tone of the brief is very adverse. On the other hand the charges are recited categorically; they are not definitely stated to have been proved. The object is to represent the order as having occasioned perpetual strife, contradiction, and trouble. For the sake of peace the Society must be suppressed.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm

Peace being maintained, by suppression of the Society of Jesus DUE TO THE LONG LIST OF ALLEGATIONS OF MISCONDUCT. Political? Yes, obviously the political aspects were directly due to the many allegations of Jesuit misconduct. (Viz such "allegations" led to the Jesuits being banished from France, Portugal, Spain and their colonies etc in the years leading up to 1773.)

We have been down this road before, and we have plenty of defenders of the Jesuits even here among our members of T-net. Lamar has a very positive view of the Jesuits, and it would be unfair to characterize ALL of the Society as some kind of "evil doers" when so many have done so much in the way of spreading education, culture, etc the list would exceed even the list of supposed "Jesuit" treasures of the world. (I am of the opinion that more than one "Jesuit" treasure is simply Spanish or possibly of OTHER religious orders, but it is common usage to call them "Jesuit" today.)

Lamar also wrote

Next, the Jesuits did NOT set foot on Australia before Capt. Cook did. The very thought is ludicrious. Had the Jesuits colonized Australia, then it most assuredly would be a substantially different place than it is today. There is simply no evidence to support the claim that there were any number of Jesuits in Australia. There are no churches, chapels, and most importantly, no Roman Catholic aborigines running around Australia today. They are, quite naturally, Protestants. If the Jesuits had been present in Australia then most assuredly there would have been huge populations of aboriginal Catholics.

Ludicrous? Are you claiming that the members of the Society of Jesus were NOT among the early explorers, nor did any explorations on their own? Might I remind you of good Father Kino, explorer of the American southwest? I think you are on very thin ice with this set of statements amigo, for explorers do not always build churches, chapels etc and the Aborigines were not always friendly with strange people who came from the seas. I think it would be quite conceited to presume that if ANY Jesuit priest had visited Australia, then we MUST find "huge populations of aboriginal Catholics". The Jesuits often had good successes in finding new converts, but NOT always by any means. (Just look at how things turned out with the Jesuit missions sent to the Iroquois peoples... )

Lamar also wrote

About the supposed *Jesuit signs*. I see from the provided photos that they are nothing more than sticks and rocks, given their own unique shapes by nature.Trust me, the Jesuits did not lay hands on any of the items in the above photos. They are merely geo-facts, nothing more. Of course, as with all of my statements and replies, I do this is a cheerful and positive manner and in no way is my reply meant to be construed as negative or determental to the topic in question.

You are judging a great deal from some photos, to be denouncing everything as nothing more than sticks and rocks given their current forms by nature. How can YOU say, that NO Jesuit ever laid hands on any of the items in those photos? Do you know every activity of every Jesuit that ever lived? Or are you saying that they would not have done any of the work themselves, rather they would delegate the actual work to some of their parish? Your dismissal is just as presumptuous as one saying that they MUST have been done by Jesuits based on those photos alone. Don't you think it worth a closer examination, and perhaps some historical research into what priests accompanied Portuguese, Spanish and possibly even Dutch explorers and traders who voyaged to East Asia? I certainly think it worth investigating further, perhaps a chapter of history needs to be re-written, and credit granted to early explorers who reached Australia - perhaps even including a courageous Jesuit priest or two!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I look forward to reading more of your research and finds.
Oroblanco

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

LAMAR, great post! But I disagree with" Attempts to rewrite history would be considered a fools errand"
Looking for the truth or cover ups ! you surely don't believe every thing you read? even the Bible was
selectively writtern.
Cheers, Ossy

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

And THAT is how a Roman Catholic religious Order is permanently dissolved, my friends. As this was the only occasion for a Roman Catholic religious Order to have ever been dissolved, there exists no other examples beyond this one. In other words, this is the cardinal document pertaining to the dissolution of a religious Order in the Church, and hopefully it shall remain as the sole surviving example, ad infinium.

Ad infinium? Or right around 32 years, right? Also that means that the Templars are not bound to obedience to the Pope right? Your sophistry and attempts to change the meaning of Pope Clement simply don't change facts.

Lamar wrote

He possibly would have used the words *PRO TOTUS VICIS*, which literally translates into "FOR ALL TIME

While I make no claim to being an expert in Latin, I feel confident that Pope Clement was certainly fluent in Latin and the meaning of what he wrote, AD INFINIUM is quite clear, "on to infinity" which has the same meaning as "forever". So I must remain respectfully in disagreement with you on this point.

Do you deny that most explorers, whether Spanish, French, Portuguese, English, Dutch etc had a minister assigned to travel with their ship(s) if for no other reason than for the care of the souls of the members of said expeditions? You ignored my mention of Father Kino's explorations, implying that Jesuit fathers were only sent to already established colonial areas, which is hardly the truth. Jesuit missionaries were great explorers in their own right. Here is an extract

Jesuit missionaries pushed west through the Great Lakes and down the Mississippi. In Mexico they came north into Arizona. What drove Jacques Marquette, Eusebio Kino, or Claude Allouez to explore unknown rivers and arid deserts? One of the obvious reasons was their interest in discovering new groups of North American Indians for evangelization. This was the motive that prompted Marquette's superior to assign him to accompany Louis Jolliet to find the Mississippi. During their journey both Marquette and Jolliet went out of their way, hiking six miles inland, to visit a Peoria Indian village. There Marquette announced to the Indians that God had sent him to help them acknowledge his existence. After his voyage of exploration, Marquette returned to the Illinois Indians whom he had described as gentle and peace-loving. The same motive is evident in the land and river explorations of other Jesuits in North America. Kino's explorations through the southwest and over the barren hills of Baja California were all undertaken with a fundamentally evangelical motive. Paul du Ru's diary of the exploration of the Mississippi from the mouth of the river north is likewise sprinkled with references to the Indian groups that he encountered as potential converts.
<taken from a Society of Jesus website, http://www.companysj.com/v253/curiosity.html>

so it appears that you are at variance with the public statements and known history of the Jesuit missionaries my friend.

Re-writing history is hardly a "fools errand" it is rather foolish to accept history as a complete set of knowledge, as if we already know EVERYTHING there is to know of our collective past. History is being rewritten constantly my friend, and hopefully with ever greater accuracy and giving credit where credit is due - perhaps even admitting that some explorers reached Australia over a century before Captain Cook's famous voyage.

Belittling photos of any site as something a six-year-old would dismiss is hardly the way a true scientist would approach the situation. How could anything new ever be learned if archaeologists simply glanced at photos and decided it to be nothing? Investigation in the field is almost always warranted and frequently fruitful, at worst it could be proven to be "nothing but rocks and sticks" put in that state by nature, at best a new archaeological site could be discovered. Lamar amigo your attitude towards investigation sometimes astounds me. What possible harm could arise from our friends researching these sites further?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I look forward to following your investigations.
Oroblanco

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

LAMAR, you are a wealth or knowledge
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Oroblanco great response, I do agree the history that is writtern is not always correct. I hope to one day prove without a
doubt, that the Spanish were in Australia 160 years before cook
Ossy

 

[tinpan]

SWR when were the Jesuits expelled and were they mainly from Mexico area? could explain why they
ended up on the east coast of Australia?
Cheers, Ossy

Ossy...the point of my post is these rock items are found all over the USA. We can pretty much establish the Spanish and/or The Jesuits were not (and could not) be everywhere these rocks are located

wtg SWR NO Jesuits in Australia until 1860 Fact The rest is recorded history by Jesuits.This has been posted on NT before.

tinpan

 

[Smithbrown]

But no one has yet shown any evidence the Jeusits were in Australia before Cook. There are plenty of verified wrecks from western Australia, the Batavia, Trial, Vergulde Draeck, lost in the 17th century- nothing verified from Spain or Portugal yet.
I find it hard to credit in the early 17th century that the Dutch would be helping the Jesuits; they appear to have been quite happy to watch them being martyred in Japan, while the Jesuits had been trying to have the first Dutch sailors to arrive there killed.
Smithbrown

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hi Max, don't throw the towel in Mate ! stick to your believes, I know I'm working to prove the Spanish were in Australia before
cook by a good 170 years before, have a look at my thread on naming of Australia by a church cardinal ( Morgan )
It will make it all the more sweet when you can prove your theory.
Let me know I'm planning a trip to Melbourne, love to help
Cheers Sam

 

[Oroblanco]

Aussie 1 wrote

I was never interested in what all you armchair theorists like churning out

Clear enough, I won't post any more here. Good luck,
Oroblanco

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Aussie 1 wrote

I was never interested in what all you armchair theorists like churning out

Clear enough, I won't post any more here. Good luck,
Oroblanco

lets be good to each other children.

 

[tinpan]

Re this thread. Ive deleted what I can and am pulling out from this thread. I was trying to get as many Aussies interested as i could. You never know I might have fluked someone with political nouse who could have helped me with the Government.
This thread reminds of opening a flywire door in our bush and letting the blow flies in.
I was never interested in what all you armchair theorists like churning out but I was interested in opening up theories into the 20 years of amazing discoveries I have made with years of physical explorations and discoveries and maybe obtaining local help. Whether they were Jesuits , Dutch or from the moon they didnt want to leave evidence as to their presence.

On my first dig down to a blown up cave entrance on the side of a cliff face 20 yers ago, what I discovered is immaterial here but the fact that they buried their campfires 3 foot deep, plus near my boatshed I excavated down to the water table at 6 feet and found countless opened shell -fish ( feet deep) from years of residing in the area next to a local creek. Aboriginals left their middens strewn where they ate. THese guys never wanted to be found or noticed.
Adios Max

So where did you get permission to dig on a historical site and nature reserve.Seems no other aussies can dig there.Even the water area around there has restrictions on divers too. 200 metres from what i know.Graft native coast trees and move massive rocks and carry hundreds of pounds of TNT.Funny just doesn,t sound like a sort of thing a religous order would do.So theres a blown up cave but that would kind of hard to hide ,if one didn,t want anyone to notice.I have seen shelf-fish heeps 20 metres high scattered from York Pen.[SA] to Portland [vic] A common find Seems the natives ate shelf-fish in the same place for 40,000 years so what that got to do with any European explorers? Of the 700 ships wrecked in Bass strait and around Victoria 'sast name one that is more than 220 years old?You ever dived any of the area you speak of. Seems your the only arm-chair dreamer on this site.

 

[tinpan]

the 2 best religous treasures of southern Australia i consider are the Baccus Estate of Sandhurst and Sister Mary of Penola , South Australia.One a mountain of wealth and properity aquired during the goldrush of Sandhurst by Dr Baccus and the other a great woman of god

tinpan

 

[Smithbrown]

Frankly I am astonished the Knights Templars have not yet been put forward.
Smithbrown

 

[Niggle]

Max,

I'd love to read your eBook ... with a guarantee of no follow-up "heckling" ... I'm from the East also and assure you I only want to get more informed before also taking a stab at this one.

Regards
Nigel

 

[Niggle]

Max,

the east, as in Lodge and slowly working my way through it.

So I'm pretty OK with distorted history It's all for a purpose.

$100 is fine for your eBook - or whatever best format you see fit - I figure each factoid helps and one day someone will join all the dots - the key is in not losing all the dots !

I'm in Albury - overseas a lot - but drop me an email or pm with enough notice and I'm a keen assistant digger and documenter ... there's no substitute for being there or witnessing that !

Cheers
Nigel

 

[Montana Jim]

Nice rocks and steps.


Where are the pictures of the silver boxes with pearls? Show us the treasure!

 

[aussie 1]

Montanna JIm , funny thing we never crossed swords before and you have 12,170 posts, and probably all skeptic. Gave up smoking in 07 I notice. I gave up in 04 after 60 years . You make SWR look like an angel as a disbeliever.
Regards Max PS, how on earth did you find me on this god forsaken isolated Aussie posting .

 

[Montana Jim]

Montanna JIm , funny thing we never crossed swords before and you have 12,170 posts, and probably all skeptic. Gave up smoking in 07 I notice. I gave up in 04 after 60 years . You make SWR look like an angel as a disbeliever.
Regards Max PS, how on earth did you find me on this god forsaken isolated Aussie posting .

I DO believe - but mostly I see rocks, and trees, and no treasures. I also see most folks who enjoy this hobby and DO believe arguing amonst themselves...

You talk about caches all along the stairs and boxes of silver holding pearls... I just wanna see 'em!

Look... I know folks left treasure signs and buried treasures. But for every one guy who left a sign and buried a treasure there are seven zillion treasure hunters never finding anything yet speaking with the greatest authority!

Help me believe in your treasure by at least showing one... I'm not all skeptic. Also - I'm not here to cross swords, just ask the questions when I have them.

Actually... I'm not in Australia nor am I aussie... I'll probebly leave the topic alone and go away quietly.

*****

Grats on the smoking thing! I quit after over 25 years and have not looked back. I can't imagine stopping after 60 years and think that awesome!

 

[Montana Jim]

Hey Montana , dont go away , I thought you were another closed mind. I apologise and you aint seen nothing yet. Regards Max

LOL...

Thats the problem! I "ain't seen nothing yet"!

I'll be reading and watching... have a great day, thanks.