Pictures of Aztec Money

[cactusjumper]

Joe:

Unlike the Roman Legion, I have no desire to sack or otherwise lay waste to your library.
And I would prefer that debate remain cordial, using sources readily available to us all.
If E-mail or Telephone conversations are to be considered as evidence, FULL transcripts or recordings should be supplied.
Otherwise, quotes from such become merely he said-she said arguments, often out of context.

It's the constant one-upsmanship that you practice while involved in discussions,where your collection and achievements as a collector of books becomes some kind of empirical evidence for what you write,that has me in objection.

Additionally,as the following quote illustrates,your condescending attitude toward myself and others who share informative source links,photographs and other professional opinions does nothing to promote further discussion.It does however,reveal your petty need to prove yourself as privy to the latest and most reliable information.

"I appreciate your providing Professor Smith's website, but I have been aware of it for some time and don't really need it. My quotes of professor Smith are much more recent than what he has posted on his site. Even this dinasour knows that the Internet is not always the most up to date source."

In the future,I will take care to provide such links as I believe may be informative in a separate posting,addressed to "All".
Hopefully,by doing so,I will be able to avoid any offence to your sensibilities.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

I'm aware of my faults, and will make every effort to be more like you in the future. I have presented no "evidence", only other people's opinions as well as my own. What you accept or reject is up to you, based on your own research into the subject.

"If E-mail or Telephone conversations are to be considered as evidence, FULL transcripts or recordings should be supplied.
Otherwise, quotes from such become merely he said-she said arguments, often out of context."

You, as well as others, will have to assign whatever value you think my quotes are worth, without the "FULL transcripts or recordings". If you want me to dance to your tune, you will have to switch to softer music.

Thank you for your, less than, "condescending" reply.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Since the chances are slim that the Hohokam did any direct trading with the Aztecs, it seems likely that indirect trade was taking place with the Trincheras and Casas Grandes, as well as others, for Aztec goods. None of the items that were being imported are likely to have had any effect on the Hohokam decline.

Just my uninformed opinion.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[piegrande]

>>While it may be necessary to possess a PHD in order to teach at university,we do not need as much in order to study and learn.]

Amen! I remember some months ago when we were told we were not supposed to disagree with an academic. At least that is how I interpreted the exchange. While I had respect for his opinion, that did not convince me I had no right to disagree.

"Michael E. Smith's article,published in 1984," is interesting. It would take some considerable study to make total sense out of it. I saved it.

>>But they also claimed that their ancestors were the Toltecs, long-settled farmers.

My memory, alas, is not photographic. But, I do believe I remember reading a statement that the Aztecs tried to build status by claiming to be Toltec, as opposed to being Toltec. Ahem. Athough certainly in 20 or so years, you can be sure there was some mixing.

 

[somehiker]

piegrand:

"My memory, alas, is not photographic. But, I do believe I remember reading a statement that the Aztecs tried to build status by claiming to be Toltec, as opposed to being Toltec."

I've read the same opinions.
There have also been theories that the Aztec claimed to be descendents of a wandering tribe (source of nomad theory ?),also for status reasons.IE: The greater accomplishment of a "Rags to Riches" struggle.
There may be some truth within both arguments.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

The premise that Hohokam fields were stressed by salt deposits is discussed here:

Salinization theory...
06:30

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Many thanks for that link. It was an interesting discussion, but much to short.

Some time ago I defended the work and expertise of Desert Archaeology, Inc., so it was nice to see Henry Wallace as part of the panel.

The discussion of "salinization" was very interesting but, once again, too short. It's been speculated that the Hohokam did practice "flushing" of their fields in the beginning of their settlement along the Gila River. For some reason, it seems they may have abandoned that practice after many years of use.

As you have written, there are a number of reasons for the Hohokam decline and absorption into other societies, but there is no mention of Aztec (even peripheral) influence, that I have ever seen.

In the field of archaeology there is often disagreement among the most respected "experts", just as it happens in our (less than expert) discussions here. Those "expert" discussions and opinions often get heated and antagonistic, creating career-long enemies.

Because there are so many opposing opinions on what happened, and our own ideas/opinions come from whom we have read or heard, our education on the subject may be.....less than complete. With my limited reading on archaeology, that
is usually the case for me.

The Aztec were born, I believe, from two peoples, the Chichimecs from the north and the Culua in the south. The Aztec people that Cortez finally conquered, were much more complicated, in ancestry, than those two tribes. They were composed of the blood of many, many peoples.

Those early Chichimecs were a nomadic, barbaric, warlike people. They wanted what others had, including a permanent place to call home and a prestigious reputation, as you have alluded to. There were three divisions of Chichimecs. The southernmost of these three, it is said, were a component of the Toltec empire, learning agriculture from the Tula.

That would give some legitimacy to their later claims of "being Toltec".

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

It would seem I have stepped on some toes here. I realize my exuberance over my book collection may get tedious for some. It's a lifelong habit that's hard to break.

I don't feel I have personally attacked anyone........unless they have insulted me first. I believe we seldom see ourselves as others view us, so perhaps I did insult Wayne and others. I can assure you it was not intentional.

I don't believe I am the only one who disagrees with some of the professional opinions of some well respected archaeologists. Perhaps by voicing those disagreements, I have made it appear that I believe I am more qualified than those I disagree with. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply stating an opinion.

Rather than making this topic a place for Wayne to express his disdain for my books, opinions and....me, I will bow out of the discussion.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon: a nice cool limeade in the patio??

Whot-n-ell is the matter with you people. They came from the Sinai, wandered across the Med Basin to Gibralter, then on to the remains of Atlantis, the shallows on the coast of Spain. They called this region - Azatlan, the place of the reeds, the whute heron, and the white sand.

They then hop skipped on over to the Americas, worked their way over to present Ariz - which many make the great mistake of believing that Azatan was there, snicker, then down to the Present Mexico city.

simple no? So why so much nit picking? Sort of reminds me the definition of "what is the meaning of IS ?" that was so famously debated a few years ago.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

The original post in this topic was about a find by Richard Ray of a number of copper artifacts identical to others previously identified by sources,including the Smithsonian,as "Aztec Hoe Money". While some may wish to use another term,based on their own perceptions,I think that the broader concept of Aztec Trade and it's extent is well worth researching.The sheer amount of professional work and opinion available to date is astounding,especially what has been gathered and analyzed in recent years.
Archaeologists currently working on projects throughout the Southwestern Us and Mexico/Central America,in co-operation with Historians of various disciplines are constantly re-evaluating what is known about the Pre-Columbian peoples and the extensive interaction between them.
Previous theories,such as the "San Juan" hypothesis which was the basis for many opinions in the past,are now being discarded due to more recent discoveries,as well as new technologies available for analysis.
Because of this,we are able to examine and discuss the influence of other civilizations and cultures,such as the Aztec,on the other pre-columbian groups.

Dr. Riley's lecture explains this better than I can:



Regards:SH.

 

[distribuidorUSA]

Hey.do think that if I find Moctecozuma's treasure I will be able to keep a share of it?.I'm 99.99% sure where it lies.and not far from Mexico City.

 

[somehiker]

Interesting find shows how our knowledge of the spread of mezoamerican culture and peoples continues to change.

Cranial deformation discovered in 1000 year old Mexican cemetery : Past Horizons Archaeology

 

[somehiker]

The cave paintings in this video also look very similar to what is found in the four corners area.



(Tarahumara mummies discovered in Chihuahua)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning some hiker: Coffee as usual, then to a recent post of mine to "Past Horizons Archaeology'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good morning Ladies and gentlemen: Join me in the patio for fresh, hot coffee?

In the 50's my brother in law gave me a small box about 18" square. for Christmas. When I opened it, inside was another box. I proceeded to open it and a progression of smaller box sizes until the final one produced a deformed skull. He said that he had found it in a cave on top of bed of white sand and the skeleton of an infant.

It appeared fairly recent, since it still had a patina of oil on it. I promptly took it to a husband and wife team of Archaeologists from a prominent University from the NE, USA, that were here in Alamos, Sonora for further identification. After examining, photographing , and carefully measuring it, they told me that it was of a female of approx, 22 that had had two children.

I offered it to them, but they refused saying that their permission from Mexico City did not allow them to move anything of Archaeological significance, but did write it up, since prior to this, they did not know of any intentional deformation practices in North Western Mexico, so we assumed that it was of a slave..

I contacted Mexico city but received no answer. Somewhere over the years it disappeared, so today I have no idea where it ended up. But as I understand, the cave wth the rest of the bones, and that of the infant, still exists.

I was also shown evidence of the so called Giants, long story here, but yes they did exist, 8 - 10 tall, red haired. Their burial site lies in the Cerro de Campana, one days ride north East from La Camotes, Sonora.

Don Jose de La Mancha (Joseph curry) Member of the Explorers Club M-03 (www.explorers.org )

 

[Mackaydon]

The object is a medium of exchange called "tajaderas," but more commonly known as ‘Aztec hoe money.’ Numismatists and historians throughout the years have had different views of these copper pieces made in the shape resembling Greek taus. The earliest reference to these is in a document dated Oct. 31, 1548, in which a Spanish resident of Antiquera de Oaxaca, Francisco Lopez Tenorio, not only described the piece but also attached a drawing with the notation: "This is the form of copper coins that were in use in New Spain. The value placed and at which these were commonly accepted was of four such pieces, if new, for five Spanish reales. If worn, many refused to accept them, and they were sold to be melted at ten pieces for one Spanish Real." Even in the 1500s there was an awareness of the grading of the medium of exchange.
Don.......
Source:http://amicidelleacque.com/coin/624.html#more-624

 

[somehiker]

Don Jose:

Bet the Red Haired Giants had big feet:

"

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Home > Arts & Humanities > History > Ancient History
[h=2]Who were the red-haired giants of early North America?[/h]

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[h=3]by Terrence Aym

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[/h] Created on: November 17, 2009
"On the earth there once were giants." - Greek poet Homer, 400 B.C.E.

Few Americans alive today are aware that once real giants roamed this land - giant red-haired humans. Most Americans believe that the Native Americans were the first to inhabit the North American continent. Yet there were others - a much more ancient race that walked the hills and valleys, the plains and deserts of the pre-Colombian Americas.





Evidence of giant humans - people seven to twelve feet tall - exists in the fossil records, tools and other artifacts recovered from archaeological digs. Giant skeletal remains have awed and sometimes frightened researchers and explorers as far back as the Sixteenth Century.

Some present day Native American tribes still recite the legends of the giants and how their ancestors fought wars against them when they arrived in North America 15,000 years ago only to find the giants already here. Others, like the Aztecs and Mayans recorded their encounters with a race of giants to the north when they ventured out on exploratory expeditions.

European explorers meet living giants

The earliest Western explorers who wrote about the giants of North America included Magellan, Sir Francis Drake, Spanish explorer Desoto, and Commodore Byron the grandfather of the famous poet, Lord Byron.

Not all encounters with giants were post-mortems. A well-documented sighting by Magellan occurred in 1520 near the harbor of San Julian, Mexico. There, Magellan and his crew came upon a red-haired giant that stood nearly ten feet tall and whom Magellan described as having a "voice like a bull." Later, Magellan learned from normal-sized natives that the giant belonged to a neighboring tribe. Remarkably, Magellan's logs show that he and his crew captured two of these living giants and brought them aboard his ship intending to bring them back to Europe. Unfortunately the giants grew ill and they both died during the return voyage. Magellan had their remains buried at sea.

Fifty-eight years later giants still roamed San Julian. None other than Sir Francis Drake recorded encountering several red-haired men who stood over nine feet tall. In the years that followed many more explorers and seafarers also reported seeing giants roaming that area."

 

[piegrande]

>>Bet the Red Haired Giants had big feet:

Watch it!

Real de Tayopa, are you aware of y-marker DNA testing? If the Aztecs came directly over as you say, it would be shown by DNA y-marker testing. And, it is not.

 

[distribuidorUSA]

In Mexico people actually mistook them for modern tools.

 

[whithill]

Reviving this thread with a question. Hello all. (I posted this in the metal detecting forum before I saw this thread).
I dug this item about 18 months ago at an old home site near Nashville. No one has ever been able to ID it. I sent a pic in to American Digger magazine and they put it in their STUMPT section, but I never heard any diagnosis until today when I opened the latest issue to see my ancient mushroom bottle opener once again. Baton Rouge historian Billy Spedale wrote in to say that the item is almost identical to one he got in trade years ago from a collector (now deceased). The collector claimed that it was a form of currency used by Aztec, Inca, Mayan, or other early American civilizations. He said the one he had had a small ink numeral on it, indicating that had at one time been part of a collection. Anyone know anything more?

I've since been searching images of Aztec currency and have seen things that resemble this item, but not exactly.

 

[somehiker]

Way too small to be hoe-money.
Looks like a cast D-ring of some kind, possibly meant for something cylindrical.
Bronze, brass or copper ?

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Some of you might remember Monette, who contributed her thoughts earlier in this discussion.

Mesoamerican Copper: An Industry of Connections

Monette:

At the bottom of your article, well done btw !, you included an illustration of one of the copper artifacts as it is shown on the Codex Mendoza.
Here is another from the Codex Florentine.....



Regards:SH.