Point authenticity - fact vs opinion

[Twitch]

Just want to take a shot at discussing a sometimes sensitive topic.

The vacant past is unknowable. Period. We all can have opinions but any stone's past is not something that you can know. It's not possible. It's not a matter of competence, it's just not possible. We can know the present and past presents, but never the unattended past. Now there are some very convincing supporting methods for building an opinion but between this post, the post from a week or so ago about the large AZ point people seem to be getting confused about what they think and what they know. I have no interest in changing anyone's opinion on any specific topic other than raising awareness that we're talking about opinions here, not fact. Facts in life are far, far rarer than most people realize. For example, I have a point in my possession - fact. I picked it up at a specific location and a specific time - all facts. I believe it to be a genuine old artifact of certain antiquity because I found it / dug it up / other circumstances - opinion. I believe it to be a modern made piece - opinion.

When someone says they found a point they're stating a fact. When they say it's an old point they're stating an opinion. To say they're facts aren't facts means you're calling them a liar. To say their opinions aren't accurate is often a reasonable debate. People should realize that integrity isn't being questioned, there's just debate about the unknowable.

People (myself include) also need to take a look at how many times their own opinion has been swayed by an online poster and then have enough self-awareness to realize that for the most part dramatically arguing a point in a public on-line forum is a completely lost cause.

This isn't directed at any individual, rather just a reflection on some of the going's on of late. Good luck, happy hunting and happy new year to everyone!

Twitch

 

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[quito]

Good observations twitch.

 

[painterx7]

Yes I agree we all have speculations but we can only try to understand we will never fully know !!!

 

[kansa54]

I agree Twitch. There is no way people on this forum are going to be able to positively ID an artifact as real or fake by a photo. Granted, something could be posted that is so obvious that it would be hard to dispute but unless you are holding it in your hand it is still hard to make a call. Heck, even authenticators, the so called experts get fooled. As you stated, you are getting opinions on this forum, not absolutes. Hopefully everyone realizes this.

 

[mainejman]

i agree twitch .Some people just deal with having their opinions questioned better than others.Im sure weve all sat at our chairs mumbling about a response someone has posted.Different opinions are what make this site work.Its up to us as members to be tolerant and sometimes patient of others views......but we are individuals so good luck with that!

 

[Twitch]

Some people just deal with having their opinions questioned better than others.

Very true jman, very true.

 

[jamey]

ya you even have to watch the ones who authenicate them sometimes.

 

[Twitch]

ya you even have to watch the ones who authenicate them sometimes.

A COA is documentation of an individuals opinion, not a statement of fact. Presumably the individual is very knowledgeable in the field so their opinion carries weight, but it is still just an opinion. I'm sure every day modern points get papered as old and old points get rejected from being papered. COA is the opinion of one individual.

 

[NC field hunter]

Just want to take a shot at discussing a sometimes sensitive topic. The vacant past is unknowable. Period. We all can have opinions but any stone's past is not something that you can know. It's not possible. It's not a matter of competence, it's just not possible. We can know the present and past presents, but never the unattended past. Now there are some very convincing supporting methods for building an opinion but between this post, the post from a week or so ago about the large AZ point people seem to be getting confused about what they think and what they know. I have no interest in changing anyone's opinion on any specific topic other than raising awareness that we're talking about opinions here, not fact. Facts in life are far, far rarer than most people realize. For example, I have a point in my possession - fact. I picked it up at a specific location and a specific time - all facts. I believe it to be a genuine old artifact of certain antiquity because I found it / dug it up / other circumstances - opinion. I believe it to be a modern made piece - opinion. When someone says they found a point they're stating a fact. When they say it's an old point they're stating an opinion. To say they're facts aren't facts means you're calling them a liar. To say their opinions aren't accurate is often a reasonable debate. People should realize that integrity isn't being questioned, there's just debate about the unknowable. People (myself include) also need to take a look at how many times their own opinion has been swayed by an online poster and then have enough self-awareness to realize that for the most part dramatically arguing a point in a public on-line forum is a completely lost cause. This isn't directed at any individual, rather just a reflection on some of the going's on of late. Good luck, happy hunting and happy new year to everyone! Twitch

joe, my brother, this post of yours should get banner! You just stated more facts than most will probably give you credit for! Dude! This is the type of thing that we talked about in the field. I really enjoyed hunting with you because conversations always got pretty deep. Artifacts and religion have so much in common. For some artifacts, the finder must draw a line and just believe from that point. Nice post Joe!

 

[Charl]

All common sense observations, Twitch. Something else I would point out is that there will always be a greater chance of misunderstandings arising from misinterpreted tones, tenor, etc. in a forum format then there will be in a live setting. In a live setting where everyone can see each other in real time, hear each other in real time, and are obviously aware that you are in a social setting, maybe 10 people passing around a point in question and talking about it, there may be very animated and intense discussion, but very little chance of one person growing angry at another person. Little chance of someone thinking "hey, did he just diss me?!" In this format, it is very easy to be in a situation where too much is left to the imagination when trying to determine what someone means or implies by a statement or statements they make. Ego can come into play. A person decides they have been dissed and reacts defensively and decides they must prove they are right and the other person is wrong. Unless you are talking about a live panel discussion, with an audience watching a bunch of people discuss the point in question on a stage, then the problem of ego-defence arguments dominating(I'm right, you're wrong!) are way less likely to develop in a simple casual social setting of people sitting around expressing there views. The potential for misunderstandings, misinterpretations, decisions that one's ego is at stake and must be defended, these are all things that develop in a forum format far more easily. It just is not the ideal venue of communication and is a problem on all social media venues really. I know I have allowed myself to fall into the trap of thinking I need to defend my point of view too vigorously, or taking things too personal at times. I've been as guilty as the next guy at times in not keeping the pitfalls utmost in my mind at all times.

 

[Twitch]

Rusty - as usual you're too kind.

Charl - all excellent points and all right on topic. I called a guy a d*&$head on here the other day. Probably wouldn't have done that in a live setting. Probably would have more appropriately questioned his motivation.

 

[mainejman]

Unfortunetly everybody likes a little confrontation its obvious by some of the dialogues.The trick would probably be to give yourself a few minutes to absorb the comment that youre troubled with.Not as a time to dwell on the comment but as a time to edit your response.See how that works for you guys ....yeah i know surrrrre

 

[monsterrack]

You all have made good points on the subject. Like Charl said just in more basic terms a word on a page may seem to the reader that it is screaming at them when in fact it is not and we all have the basic instinct of fight or flight and on the internet we are more app to fight with words.

 

[quito]

No sir, there is not much emotion evident in typewritten dialogue. Unless one is writing in the style of a novel writer.

I try to take what is written as literally as possible (within reason), and keep it in the proper context.

 

[katdancing]

Twitch, Great post & common sense. Happy New Year! Kat