Provenance

[mainejman]

Trying to understand preserving provenance.What im getting here is its preserving a particular pieces history and ownership.In most cases havent they pretty much already been documented by theyre particular type. By archeologists over the last hundred years.Documentation of ownership seems like the least important thing to me.With Some of these pieces being thousands of years old the time they spend out of theyre original place of origin Does not even seem significant in the big picture.IMO

 

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[GatorBoy]

I can answer that quite shortly.. If there were a catastrophe and all my artifacts were lost somehow the last thing I would do is start explaining that to an insurance company.
I never associated dollar bills with them in the first place and it doesn't take any dollar bills to make me feel better about their loss.
(I know what happened to you)
The likelihood of somebody going CSI on 99.9 percent of the stone artifacts that are found on a regular basis.. Basically doesn't exist.
Especially after people rub oil and who knows what else all over these things to make them look good in a case

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

Values in Anthropology

 

[mainejman]

Does a single artifact in most cases have a story to tell.When theyre story has been told by all the other artifacts documented before them by archeologists done the right way. Not by pickers and buyers and sellers.I guess what im trying to say is in most cases the single artifact doesnt offer much new information.imo

 

[GatorBoy]

Long read there pippen... #4 is interesting..and that whole write up is a great explanation of the difference between cultural value and monetary value.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry...academics are a wordy bunch...
i am just attempting to not be banned for an opinion here.

 

[GatorBoy]

Gotcha

 

[quito]

Does a single artifact in most cases have a story to tell.When theyre story has been told by all the other artifacts documented before them by archeologists done the right way. Not by pickers and buyers and sellers.I guess what im trying to say is in most cases the single artifact doesnt offer much new information.imo

In the big picture, few sites receive the attention of the Archy's, so yes, their record is important too in my opinion, the archy's haven't been there. Also, it is guys like us who occasionally come upon something that is worth the attention of the professionals, and that is how they often gain information of new sites.

The dovetail I found at auction a while back is a good example of a single find out of context, worthy of noting. Hippy, a very astute individual that collect the type says he has never heard of one being found this far west, and has never seen an authentic one made out of Knife River Flint. Now, it's finder, and location of the find, has been documented and hopefully the documentation will stay with the piece. The papers I obtain for it will carry far more weight than what I can write down or what someone else in the future says I said.

 

[GatorBoy]

It's odd you use that type as an example... The reason I picked it to begin with was that it is likely by far the most reproduced type there is.
The fact that he has never seen one made of KRF would be more of a red flag then anything to me.

 

[mainejman]

Yes i could see where it would be helpful in establishing range.I just figured by now that the know it alls would know it all.

 

[quito]

"It's odd you use that type as an example... The reason I picked it to begin with was that it is likely by far the most reproduced type there is. "

The reason I used the type is because it is a good analogy, and a recent event.

"Would the fact that he has never seen one made of KRF be interesting or a red flag?"

Interesting for sure. It makes it pretty special.

"a red flag"? Maybe for the guy that I recently had the pleasure to educate about the stages that KRF patinates in, you.

Not for a guy who knows his knife river flint. me.

 

[mainejman]

I also undertstand that we are major contributers in the archeological world.Here in maine pickers were responsible for the dicovery of one of the oldest fish weirs in north america.When i contacted several archeologists about a point i found they were all very interested in knowing where i found it.To make sure i hadnt found a new site that they werent aware of.So i can understand how it works on several different levels.When artifacts are coa'd are they put in any sort of data base so this information can be utilized...

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

End it gentlemen or a mod will.





SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

MALO PERICULOSAM, LIBERTATEM QUAM QUIETAM SERVITUTEM


We will NOT go quietly into the night!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

ok..here goes...just cant help myself I guess..
until a famous economist defined the terms, most "archies" were like most of the people in here...relic hunters, scavengers. perhaps a rudimentary education, but no basis of identification or placing an artifact in the proper context...
placing items in their proper context is the only reason an archie digs. unless it is salvage archeology, saving a piece from certain destruction.

this economist defined how objects were made, who made them, who owned the resources to make the object.
when an object is found, and it is associated with other objects within a time line defined by some arbitrary or natural period accepted by other educated persons...this object can then be placed within the culture.
this placing of an artifact, in the culture, who made it, who used it, who owned it, who owned the materials to manufacture...defines the objects use in the culture...
storage containers about a hearth define a typical female site...other object found in the immediate area can then be associated with the female site.
points and bone materials showing activity of being worked, can define a male area...or not...dependent upon the culture.
the association to time periods and other artifacts allow anthropologists the ability to create a model of the culture...re create the life and times of the people...
to many anthroplogists and museum scientists, the provenance is the most important value....not the gold for gold sake, not jade for the price per gram...
association to a period of time and other objects.

 

[Bum Luck]

See you say they are removed from context. Then you say there is no significance to them as it is here-say. Then i think of the detective who uses soil analysis to try and find the location of a murder victim or the location of a crime. Soil analysis is often used in the solving of a crime. Now since authentic points will retain some of the debris it once laid in, do you not think they can be pin-pointed where found by soil analysis? If a thorough map is laid out of soils samples one day, do you not think that the land to which the artifact was found can be possibly located. Yes it is all incumbent to that type of data one day yet the possibility does remain that it could happen and that is when a artifact can be typed to a location or State. Still important in my book. As far as pricing artifacts and your feelings towards that. The reason for a applied price is for insurance purposes and possible sale one day. You find that priceless Suwannee or Clovis in your area and have it in your collection and someone steals it or a catastrophe happens and it is destroyed. I already know your answer to that one.....but i'll leave it for you to write it up. My point is provenance will always serve a reason in aiding the validation of the artifacts found. Future generations will appreciate the work we do today preserving historical finds no matter how little they are!

"Now since authentic points will retain some of the debris it once laid in, do you not think they can be pin-pointed where found by soil analysis?"

I doubt it for most situations - soil types are too widespread most of the time, and if there happened to be very local indicators, they would likely not be mapped.

I agree with anything else though.

 

[larson1951]

after a discussion with my moderator partners i am asking for this arguing to stop now.....
the next time the arguing starts this forum will not be available for that purpose
please show the moderators some respect and stop wasting our time
this makes me mad

 

[Tnmountains]

Yep and you do not want to see him get mad!!

 

[outlawatheart]

hey steve do you swell up and turn green when you get mad...lol!

after a discussion with my moderator partners i am asking for this arguing to stop now.....
the next time the arguing starts this forum will not be available for that purpose
please show the moderators some respect and stop wasting our time
this makes me mad

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[Get-the-point]

I see nothing wrong with this discussion. I have seen no attacks. Actually all I see is a discusson going on with varying opinions yet correlating with the topic at hand. Nothing but solid comments on this one. Nothing to get your feathers ruffled over........

 

[Get-the-point]

"Now since authentic points will retain some of the debris it once laid in, do you not think they can be pin-pointed where found by soil analysis?"

I doubt it for most situations - soil types are too widespread most of the time, and if there happened to be very local indicators, they would likely not be mapped.

I agree with anything else though.

To say they would likely not get mapped is possible. Yet why leave room for doubt........