Queens Dowry...

[Dell Winders]

My opinion? I don't think it will matter to any one here because it does not fit "boxed in thinking", but here it is anyway. I see a probability that there are 3 ships of the 1715 fleet sank in the vicinity of Douglas Beach. Dell

 

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[Au_Dreamers]

Dell I guess it depends on the definition of "vicinity". According to Lima he was south of Douglas Beach wreck and the patache was within 2 leagues.

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I thought the Sandy Point bell was a "prayer bell" and was inconclusive to a ship's identity?

 

[grossmusic]

Hmm. My notes just say that the bell was found there & attributed to Rosario. May have been attributed on speculation if that's the case. This is how bad assumptions are made. Darn.

Just because we disagree on some theories & interpretations doesn't mean we're incapable of thinking outside the box. In fact, it is creative thinking that has gotten everyone this far.

 

[Dell Winders]

Dell I guess it depends on the definition of "vicinity". According to Lima he was south of Douglas Beach wreck and the patache was within 2 leagues.

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I thought the Sandy Point bell was a "prayer bell" and was inconclusive to a ship's identity?

Is there a record of how he measured, or estimated the distance, and from what point?

 

[grossmusic]

Someone from the National Maritime Museum (Greenwich) responded, confirming what some have said here:

"...ships did not receive a name on the stern until 1778 and it was usually in large painted letters below the lowest tier of windows. This was rescinded for some of the ships in America during the War of American Independence, as the names enabled the Americans to keep tabs on British shipping movements during the war."

It was also confirmed that Hampton Court was sold to the Spanish in 1712 at Dunkirk, though no further details/references were given.

So I will just get creative with how/if to depict the name when there are so many ships to keep straight in the story.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Dell, Lima referenced himself at 27d 15m

 

[ou8acracker2]

It has been almost 2 years since I first posted this thread! Holy crap. I'm 25 now, have graduated, sat on a drill rig in Nevada looking for gold, came back to school and now am halfway through my MBA concentrating in finance and investment management haha

Wow how times have changed.

Elle - Where can I get a copy of your book?

Have there been any new good finds on the wrecks since I last started this thread? There's been a diving season in between.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I heard some guys on the Capitana salvage vessel found a pile of 48 escudos!

and the Schmitt family ended the season with a bang hitting a pile of gold chains, a 2 escudo and 4 Lima 8 escudos!!!!

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/s...recoveries-off-north-douglas-beach-trail.html

That after working hard all season finding a bunch of silver coins!!

There were more gold coins found this year on the 1715 than silver!!

TREASURE coast!!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

That's a fairly lengthy subject that would high jack this thread. Some answers can be found reading this forum but maybe a new post would be better than taking over this one.

 

[grossmusic]

Back to OP: Queen's Dowry...

I've made a "discovery" that seems to put to rest any rumors about a queen's dowry - don't get mad. I was just following facts. Also, while there are some citations to back it up, they are difficult to verify as they are published in French, Spanish, Italian & other languages because they are compiled from various contemporary letters & writings by Torcy, St. Simon, Alberoni, Ursins & others.

Bottom line...

*"The Duke of Parma...was poor [and] had provided NOTHING" for the queen's journey to reach Spain (after their September 1714 wedding by proxy). This would suggest that if there was a dowry at all, it was small & wiped the Duke out, or more likely, there was no dowry to begin with. They mooched upon Philip's treasury for 3 months with a caravan of about 600 people! (*The Princess des Ursins by Maud Crutwell, 1927)

Elisabetta's true value to King Philip V was as an heir to Parma where she could regain power for Spain over Italian provinces through her offspring.

 

[signumops]

Back to OP: Queen's Dowry...

I've made a "discovery" that seems to put to rest any rumors about a queen's dowry - don't get mad. I was just following facts. Also, while there are some citations to back it up, they are difficult to verify as they are published in French, Spanish, Italian & other languages because they are compiled from various contemporary letters & writings by Torcy, St. Simon, Alberoni, Ursins & others.

Bottom line...

*"The Duke of Parma...was poor [and] had provided NOTHING" for the queen's journey to reach Spain (after their September 1714 wedding by proxy). This would suggest that if there was a dowry at all, it was small & wiped the Duke out, or more likely, there was no dowry to begin with. They mooched upon Philip's treasury for 3 months with a caravan of about 600 people! (*The Princess des Ursins by Maud Crutwell, 1927)

Elisabetta's true value to King Philip V was as an heir to Parma where she could regain power for Spain over Italian provinces through her offspring.

Kudos! Keep digging! (basically the best advice you can get on a treasure hunting forum, no matter what)

 

[Au_Dreamers]

That would be her family's Dowry, not the Kings. Two different things.

 

[ou8acracker2]

You know what I was pondering today...as I went surfing and a storm exposed ALOT of the Anastasia Formation in Boca Raton...just off the beach, low tide it starts in 6 inches of water...Then talked to some old timers and they said the ENTIRE beach used to be that rock and they had to climb down it in order to get onto the beach. That got me thinking. We think the coast was a super sandy beach up near where all these ship wrecked. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was a rocky outcropping. It was formed in the Pleistocene so it was there long long ago.

Does anyone know just how deep you can blow a hole out where you guys are looking before you hit hard pan or rock? (this will lead into a queens dowry thought after I figure this out...promise)

IF the dowry was in a desk or floatable object, it could be under quite a bit of sand that is now dry beach. They were also smaller objects and not as heavy as coins so they would wash in the furthest. Perhaps they haven't been found because they are not in the water where everyone in searching?

I wonder how far inland exactly their salvage camp was in relation to the current shore. Maybe they were quite a bit further inland than we think. Just spitballin thoughts

 

[grossmusic]

In Haskins' papers, every reference that clarifies at all talks about the jewels being sent "to" the queen or "for" the queen. All other references just say "queen's jewels." No hint of dowry there, be it from her or her family (all dowries are from families because they are acting on behalf of their daughter).

Interesting stuff about the rocky shores & inland camps. I'm useless in that regard! I only know there was no manmade inlet along the shore at that time (Ft. Pierce & Sebastian were made later, but there may have been a narrow natural inlet between them that later closed up).

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Dowry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
dow·ry

noun \ˈdau̇(-ə)-rē\ : money or property that a wife or wife's family gives to her husband when the wife and husband marry in some cultures


plural dowries
Full Definition of DOWRY

1archaic : dower 1

2: the money, goods, or estate that a woman brings to her husband in marriage

3: a gift of money or property by a man to or for his bride

4: a natural talent

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Sand depth can vary from almost none to 20ft+ on the wreck sites.

There's record of flotsam being found over 20 miles away from the Maravillas wreck and that wreck was fairly intact.

In the wreck areas land width varies from about 50 yards to over 1,000

 

[grossmusic]

Yes - but culturally in 1715 Spain, the 2nd definition applies (not the 3rd). This is backed up by other dowries brought to the throne in previous & subsequent generations. In fact, Philip almost didn't become king except that his Spanish grandmother could not pay a dowry to Louis XIV to renounce her throne, leaving her (& Louis) technically still in control of the Spanish throne - this is the convoluted political basis of the War of Spanish Succession (yep - the entire war was Philip's fault for taking the throne!), but bottom line is that it would be quite unusual to call a gift from a man to his bride a dowry in 18th-c Spain, France or Italy, the three nations in play.

I say this not as an expert on the era's politics, however. I've just read a lot of the contemporary works and have never seen a dowry referenced as other than that of the bride's family, be it riches or seats of nobility. Perhaps elle or someone else with "real" expertise could confirm or show us an exception.

 

[FISHEYE]

300 years ago there was more land mass on the barrier islands.The water hasn't risen much.The land has washed away.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

As you I've always thought of Dowry in the more traditional sense of from the Bride's side, that's why I had posted in an earlier post where/when did Dowry get "coined".

In my thoughts I think the importance is in the thought process of the Real 8 people. They used an alternative term to reference the, gifts, presents, "Dowry" that was being shipped on the Fleet. While it "may" be incorrect usage for 1700's it is correct for "modern" usage.

I'll invoke my disclaimer here... Is it that you want to correct the misnomer of Dowry?

Maybe it was just artistic license like so many other 1715 stories...

Hey maybe this is where the Queen's jewels went?!!?

"The English stayed over the hull of the Almiranta
4 days and salvaged 4 boxes of coins at 3000 pesos to the box,
and a lot of fabricated silver and a box marked with the Arms of
the King Our Senor. I immediately declared this to be the King's
property and the Mulato Corsair replied that he was King and that
the one in Spain had no more right to it than him, and besides he
had found it."

 

[Jolly Mon]

My understanding is that the Duke of Parma, Elisabeth's "father" at the time of her marriage to Philip V, was actually her stepfather, Francesco Farnese. He was the half-brother of Elisabeth's biological father, Odoardo Farnese. Francesco apparently arranged the marriage to Elisabeth's mother, Dorothea Sophie, precisely because he did not want to lose her dowry should she marry someone else. IMHO it is tough to say how much money would have been available to Elisabeth's family for a potential dowry on the occasion of her marriage.

I think the terms "dowry" and "bride price" have become synonymous with the passage of time. The former is the price paid by the bride's family to the groom's family, the latter is the price paid by the groom's family to the bride's family.

I am certainly no expert on the wedding customs of the House of Bourbon, but bride prices were certainly given among Spanish colonists in the New World and I suspect this tradition was probably carried over from Spain itself.

On a political note, it is tough to say who wanted the marriage between Philip and Elisabeth more---he was apparently mentally unstable and a sex- addict with a need for political ties to Parma, while she was ambitious and manipulative. She by all accounts came to dominate Philip after their marriage and was the real power behind the throne after 1714.

The marriage seems to have been highly desirable for both parties. I can easily imagine Philip wanting to providing his new wife with some spectacular wedding gifts, whether it was an agreed upon "bride price" or no.