Sailboat tongue or somethig else?

[Scrappy]

Colonial Spanish silver sword buckle Tongue. Unique?

This came from an early site where I have found early and mid 1800's buttons. It appears it was gilt in silver but the years all but took it away. Can anybody tell me more about this?

I found this a few weeks ago but forgot about it, found it today in a drawer, thus it is "today's find"

 

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[Tnmountains]

Man I hope you get and I.D. I can not imaging forgetting about it for weeks in a drawer! What made you remember it? Glad you re found your old find,lol. And solid diver it must have rang in very well! Thanks for sharing it with us! Amazing story! lol

 

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[Scrappy]

Thanks. The guy John I mentioned before is a curator of a museum of spanish artifacts online. He said what it was, but it sure would be nice to have an example. But then again it would not be unique then...

 

[Ahab8]

Hey bud what did that ring up if you remember? If it's silver it had to be high 90s right. I'm falling in love with this thing. I thing it may need a repost with a fancy title

 

[Vino]

Awsome piece of history. .
You got my vote also.
Banner baby..
George

 

[Scrappy]

Hey bud what did that ring up if you remember? If it's silver it had to be high 90s right. I'm falling in love with this thing. I thing it may need a repost with a fancy title

Maybe a new title, but what? Lol.

It was a 92-93 if I remember. I thought I had a big busty silver half from the 1830's!

 

[Scrappy]

it may be Spanish made; but I do not believe it is military related. I have never seen a schooner or yacht on a military piece. it is possible a wealthy merchant trader had this made custom based on the Spanish military style. who ever had it and why it was made; there is a story behind it and it is a special piece. I have only seen a few solid silver plates over the years. I really hope the wreath is lurking about. we may never know why is was made or who it was made for. but it is definitely a tongue for the books and needs to be published so others can see it and know it exists. congrats!

I definitely understand your thought process of thinking its a reproduction. I'm completely open to anything too. However looking at the pattern around the loop side and comparing it to existing ones makes me think it came from the same mold. The small rings around the frame seem absolutely identical. I'm trying to contact an expert to ask more questions.

Now being solid silver is because it was apparently an off-duty piece for dress. Those spaniards have swagger

Either way thanks for the input. I intend to take all angles, insight, and knowledge to find the story behind this, glorious or not.

 

[pepperj]

Missed this one, but I will say you have a very nice piece there, hope you get an ID on it.

 

[CC Hunter]

Scrappy,

Your find of the tongue half of a small two-piece Tongue & Wreath (T&W) buckle depicting a sailing yacht or sailboat, appears to be a variant of the more commonly seen small vertical anchor T&W buckles. These with the anchor motif have been noted to have originally been mated with an outer wreath depicting a Life Preserver design. Considering the belt loop detail on your example is nearly identical to these other known buckles, as well as size and manufacturing style, leads to yours also likely having been originally worn with a matching Life Preserver design wreath.

Actual silver, both sterling (92.5%) and the commonly seen coin silver (90.0%), will in most instances come out of well drained soil being quite shiny. In locations where silver is in wet locations or under water, the metal generally will be recovered very black. The original color of the sailboat buckle tongue before cleaning, as near as I can tell, is more of a reddish brown. My hunch is the metal is a nickle brass alloy (German silver, nickle silver, white brass, etc.) which would have originally been silver in color yet not actually silver.

Nickel silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Regarding the era and use of these styles of small "nautical" motif T&W buckles, the preponderance of gathered information on similar examples points to the "Spanish" affiliation for a "Dirk Belt" as well as early 1800's time frame being highly speculative at best.


Site context for recovered examples points more assuredly towards early 20th Century swimwear!



http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/351895-spanish-naval-buckle.html


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/182566-need-some-help-buckle.html


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/213075-tongue-buckle-question-solved.html


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/437461-help-naval-buckle-iron-patch-nova-treasure-look.html


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...e-navy-buckle-update-john-powell-s-reply.html


CC Hunter

 

[danimal03]

nice research CC Hunter. thanks for shedding some light. I was swayed by the other info out there that had been previously posted though my initial gut was late 19th or early 20th century. good to learn something new.

 

[Scrappy]

Thanks for the info CC HUNTER despite it being not so good news. It makes more sense then spanish origin coming from a homestead and farm in northern NJ. It went in my drawer initially because I too thought it was fairly modern. Being a Chief Mate on oil ships, I have a fair amount of nautical knowledge. I saw examples with life rings and know they did not have them in colonial times. Or even most of the 19th century

Happy hunting!

 

[CC Hunter]

You are quite welcome Scrappy.

The little buckle is still a very cool find and and new variation I had not seen before. Thanks for pulling it out of the drawer and posting it here.

Spanish military history would be awesome, envisioning such a buckle holding a belt and Toledo steel dirk! But, alas that is not the case. Unless of course the early Spanish were into swimwear fashion!



CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Here's a 1930's vintage Janzten swimsuit with the very same anchor design T&W buckle formally attributed to a circa early 1800's Spanish Dirk Belt.


CC Hunter

 

[danimal03]

nice research CC Hunter. I was thinking there should be some sort of record if they were turn of the century or so. The photos are 100% proof positive that these are swimsuit buckles from early/mid 20th century. I saw the John Powell link several years back and have seen it subsequently referenced as the 'Spanish dirk belt plate' on other sites. Once something is misidentified it often gets reposted and the misinformation is spread. same thing in the old Civil War reference books that are misidentified that are still referenced to this day. to me the wreaths and their life preserver design look 100% 20th century. But I had never previously seen the wreath before CC Hunter's post. I had only seen pictures of the tongue maybe two times.

I am sure we will see these again and this is a nice thread for reference in the future. thanks CC Hunter!

 

[CC Hunter]

The Diving Girl logo seen on the right of the blue swim trunks, is the company mark of Janzten.

Jantzen © Timeline


There were slight variations in the logo style over the years. This particular logo as seen on the swimwear with the anchor T&W buckle, appears to date between 1928 and 1948.

Jantzen © The Icon


CC Hunter