Spains policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre

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Oct 21, 2009
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Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Tesoros españoles bajo el mar

por Ignacio Arroyo Martínez, Catedrático de la Universidad Autónoma de Barcelona y presidente de la Asociación Española de Derecho Marítimo

El País, 29/12/2011

La acertada política española con relación a la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático está de enhorabuena. Recientemente se han producido unas decisiones judiciales que ayudan a despejar tres cuestiones fundamentales. ¿A quién pertenecen los restos naufragados, a los antiguos dueños o a los rescatadores? ¿Quién resuelve la controversia? ¿Existe una solución universalmente aceptada?
Preguntas tan sencillas exigen respuestas ciertamente complejas. Pero la sociedad de la información impone sus criterios de brevedad, a riesgo de incurrir en simplificaciones peligrosas.
Las reflexiones que siguen vienen al caso de una información general ya pasada y de otra reciente más concreta, pero una no se explica sin la otra. Me refiero a la vigencia del convenio internacional que protege el patrimonio cultural sumergido y a las recientes sentencias judiciales norteamericanas dictadas con ocasión del medio millón de monedas de oro recuperadas del fondo del mar y halladas entre los restos de la fragata española Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.
La comunidad internacional es consciente de la importancia del problema y ha tomado cartas en el asunto. Tras varios lustros de negociación, gracias a los auspicios de la Unesco, se firmó en París, el 2 de noviembre de 2001, el Convenio Internacional sobre Protección del Patrimonio Cultural Subacuático. El Tratado establece un régimen legal uniforme para que todos los Estados, adoptando los mismos criterios, eviten que las disparidades nacionales pongan en peligro el objetivo principal, y pacíficamente compartido, de garantizar y fortalecer la protección del patrimonio cultural sumergido.
La disciplina desgrana un conjunto de instrumentos que van desde la imprescindible cooperación entre los Estados hasta el acceso responsable del público, pasando por la preservación in situ, el empleo de medios propios de la arqueología submarina, la prohibición de la explotación comercial y el respeto de la inmunidad soberana de los buques y aeronaves de Estado. También trata de la legitimación de los distintos Estados interesados; a saber, el Estado ribereño, del pabellón, de la nacionalidad de los titulares y el de la nacionalidad de los halladores o salvadores. Facultades que varían según el lugar donde se encuentren los pecios: aguas interiores, mar territorial, zona contigua, zona económica exclusiva y plataforma continental o la alta mar. Combinación de factores que hacen harto compleja la disciplina.
La Convención se aprobó con 87 votos a favor, 4 en contra y 15 abstenciones, entró en vigor el 2 de enero de 2009, tras la ratificación de 20 Estados, y España la incorporó al derecho interno el 5 de marzo de 2009. Países tan importantes como Italia y Croacia, la han ratificado, pero Reino Unido, Francia y Alemania no. Estados Unidos ha manifestado su oposición por motivos técnicos, principalmente por la ambigüedad sobre la inmunidad de buques de Estado y porque en el momento de la firma no era miembro de la Unesco. En todo caso, sigue aumentando el número de países que la incorporan a su ordenamiento. Lo que ayuda a la consolidación progresiva del denominado derecho débil (soft law) y termina por convertirse en costumbre internacional, obligatoria entonces para los Estados no ratificantes.
Desde ese contexto general, vale la pena detenerse en las recientes sentencias de la Corte de Apelación del Circuito 11 de EE UU, fechadas el 21 de setiembre de 2011 y ratificadas por otra de 29 de noviembre, no solo porque dan la razón al Reino de España contra la empresa norteamericana de rescates Odyssey, en el famoso caso del navío Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, sino también porque ayudan a comprender mejor algunos aspectos de los interrogantes anteriores.
El buque se hundió en 1804 y parte de sus restos han sido recuperados en aguas internacionales cercanas al estrecho de Gibraltar, a una profundidad de 1.100 metros. Concretamente, 594.000 monedas de oro y plata y diversos pecios de valor cultural e histórico, como cañones, aparejo y otros cargamentos. Los expertos discuten el valor económico, entre 400 y 500 millones de euros. Pero al margen del valor venal y numismático, pues son monedas acuñadas en Lima en 1796, bajo el reinado de Carlos IV, tan admirablemente retratado por Goya, nadie pone en duda su valor cultural e histórico. Las monedas han permanecido intactas en el fondo marino durante más de 200 años.
El Reino de España se ha enfrentado, por un lado, a la empresa salvadora que alega el derecho marítimo norteamericano sobre hallazgos y salvamento (first came first served), según el cual los bienes abandonados y salvados pertenecen al salvador. Por otro lado, a 25 personas individuales, que sostienen ser herederos de los propietarios del cargamento. Y también ha intervenido el Gobierno de Perú, reclamando la propiedad soberana, pues el cargamento se fabricó en su territorio y por sus ciudadanos.
Los jueces federales norteamericanos, primero la Corte de Distrito de Tampa, Florida y ahora la Corte de Apelación, han dado la razón a España, reconociéndole tanto la propiedad de los pecios como del cargamento. Sin embargo, Odyssey ha anunciado un último recurso ante el Tribunal Supremo. Mas son pocas las posibilidades de éxito porque, a diferencia de nuestro sistema judicial, la casación debe ser autorizada por el mismo tribunal recurrido, y lo hace si tiene dudas sobre su propio pronunciamiento. Y, además, conviene recordar que superado ese filtro, solo prospera un centenar de los 5.000 recursos anuales que aproximadamente se formulan ante el Tribunal Supremo de los Estados Unidos.
No se trata de echar las campanas al vuelo, pero la noticia es buena para España y para el interés general porque viene a corroborar la doctrina anteriormente sentada en los casos La Galga de Andalucía y La Juno, fragatas españolas hundidas en 1750 y 1802 con toda su tripulación a bordo, y cuyos restos fueron rescatados en aguas que bañan el Estado de Virginia. En ambos casos, la sentencia fue inicialmente favorable a la empresa privada norteamericana (Sea Hunt), al entender que España había abandonado los restos, pero revocada por la Corte Federal del Cuarto Circuito porque las dos fragatas eran buques de la Armada y, por tanto, gozaban de inmunidad soberana. Y en ningún caso, España había hecho declaración expresa de abandono. Los derechos de salvamento fueron igualmente rechazados pues resultan improcedentes al tratarse de restos de vidas humanas. El Tribunal Supremo no admitió el recurso, zanjando definitivamente la propiedad a favor del Reino de España.
La doctrina sentada en los casos Mercedes, Galga y Juno, confirma que los buques de Estado gozan de inmunidad soberana y, por tanto, el Estado del pabellón conserva la propiedad, salvo que se demuestre que ha renunciado expresamente.
Pero al experto le llaman más la atención tres aspectos no menos relevantes.
Primero, que estos litigios se han ventilado siempre ante la jurisdicción norteamericana. Comprensible cuando los restos se encuentran en aguas bajo su jurisdicción soberana, pero sorprendente cuando se encuentran en aguas internacionales, o en aguas de otro Estado ribereño y los restos y sus reclamantes no son todos de nacionalidad norteamericana.
Segundo, que no siendo EE UU parte del Convenio de la Unesco, la sentencia corrobora los mismos principios, acercando el derecho marítimo norteamericano al derecho marítimo internacional.
Y tercero, feliz coincidencia, porque lo que de verdad se ha discutido no es tanto la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático sino la inmunidad soberana. Es decir, que los llamados "intereses del Estado" se imponen a los "intereses del privado".
Pero la cuestión de fondo, más allá del Convenio y de la jurisprudencia, sigue siendo la misma: ¿por qué debemos dar al Estado, y excluir al privado, el monopolio exclusivo de la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático? ¿Por qué esta manía de identificar interés general con titularidad pública o estatal? ¿Acaso una bien dotada fundación privada no puede proteger mejor, determinados bienes culturales, que un desvencijado museo municipal?


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TRIBUNA: MARIANO J. AZNAR
Patrimonio cultural bajo el mar

MARIANO J. AZNAR, El País 14/01/2012

El pasado 29 de diciembre de 2011, en estas mismas páginas, el profesor Arroyo llevaba a cabo un interesante análisis sobre algunas de las novedades que se están produciendo en el régimen jurídico de la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático. Advirtiendo, con razón, hallarse ante "preguntas sencillas que exigen respuestas complejas", el prestigioso catedrático de la Universidad de Barcelona planteaba entre otras las siguientes cuestiones: "¿A quién pertenecen los restos naufragados, a los antiguos dueños o a los rescatadores? ¿Quién resuelve la controversia? ¿Existe una solución universalmente aceptada?".

Efectivamente, son preguntas de respuesta compleja; y la brevedad que nos exigen estas páginas obliga a no elaborar argumentos excesivamente complicados. De ahí que el primero de los míos vaya en el título de esta tribuna: acaso debería hablarse de "patrimonio cultural", evitando el término de "tesoros".

Si hablamos de "tesoros" al referirnos a los restos y la carga de las tres fragatas españolas a las que se hace referencia, La Juno y La Galga -hundidas en aguas bajo jurisdicción estadounidense- y La Mercedes -hundida en la plataforma continental portuguesa-, estamos limitando la cuestión precisamente al ámbito en el que prefieren litigar las empresas buscadoras de tesoros (Sea Hunt y Odyssey, en esos casos): el del derecho marítimo, de naturaleza privada, y ante tribunales anglosajones en un proceso clásico de admiralty law donde lo que se discute es el derecho de hallazgo o el derecho de salvamento. Esto es, un proceso para reconocer un título de propiedad o un premio sobre objetos hallados en el mar.

Ello explica, en parte, el primer aspecto que llama la atención: que estos procesos se ventilen ante la jurisdicción norteamericana. Esta jurisdicción, históricamente favorable a los cazatesoros, tiene una vocación de extraterritorialidad que permite a cualquiera que expolie un bien cultural, indistintamente de donde se encuentra y bajo el pretexto de invocar el derecho de hallazgo o el derecho de salvamento (espuriamente aplicado aquí), recibir una compensación que en todos los casos ha obviado precisamente el valor cultural de los objetos saqueados.

Lamentablemente, ninguna de esas sentencias hace referencia al Convenio de la Unesco sobre la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático de 2001 o sus principios inspiradores, por otro lado aceptados expresamente por la Administración norteamericana. Tanto en relación con La Juno y La Galga como en relación con La Mercedes los tribunales estadounidenses han defendido un principio de derecho internacional público (y no de derecho marítimode naturaleza privada) cual es el de la inmunidad soberana de los buques de Estado hundidos, que opera en ambos casos impidiendo la jurisdicción de los tribunales estadounidenses sobre pecios que continúan siendo propiedad pública del Reino de España.

Los intereses privados que defendían las empresas buscadoras de tesoros pretendían un simple lucro mercantil con la comercialización de los objetos, contrario a los principios fundamentales de la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático. Los intereses del Estado coinciden aquí con el interés "público" de preservar para generaciones venideras una explicación más de nuestra historia común: aquella que traza las rutas, los contactos, la presencia y los desencuentros de España y Europa con el continente americano.

El mar es el mayor museo del mundo, y, sin embargo, muchos siguen sosteniendo -incluso jurídicamente- que cualquiera pueda llegar, apropiarse de cualquier objeto que en el mar se encuentre, descontextualizarlo de su espacio arqueológico y traficarlo con la finalidad de obtener un lucrativo negocio. El patrimonio cultural subacuático forma parte del patrimonio general de los seres humanos de esta y futuras generaciones y no debe regularse por un derecho marítimo que procura intereses privados sino por un Derecho Internacional Público que defiende intereses públicos. Asimismo, son los derechos internos igualmente públicos los que incorporan al dominio público dicho patrimonio, como lo hace la actual Ley 16/1985 del Patrimonio Histórico Español y lo hará, espero, la futura Ley del Patrimonio Cultural Español. El principio de inmunidad soberana, defendido tanto por España como por otras potencias navales (incluido Estados Unidos) implica que un Estado, salvo abandono expreso, mantiene sus derechos soberanos sobre todo buque de Estado hundido, indistintamente del lugar donde se halle e indistintamente del tiempo transcurrido desde su hundimiento. Sigue siendo propiedad pública, regida por el derecho público, que defiende y ordena los intereses públicos.

Una ordenada participación de lo privado en dicha protección es perfectamente posible y plausible, pero bajo esa óptica de gestionar y proteger un patrimonio de todos. De hecho, la futura ley general de navegación marítima tendrá que ser revisada en su borrador original (hoy decaído por el fin de la legislatura) para que figuras como el hallazgo, el salvamento marítimo, las extracciones o las remociones marítimas no se apliquen al patrimonio cultural subacuático en concordancia con lo que el Convenio de la Unesco de 2001 -ratificado por España y por tanto parte de nuestro ordenamiento interno con rango superior a toda ley salvo nuestra Constitución- exige a nuestro legislador.

Es interesante que ese Convenio siga recibiendo nuevas ratificaciones. Es igualmente interesante, como subraya el profesor Arroyo, que el contenido de dicho Convenio acabe convirtiéndose en derecho consuetudinario, obligando internacionalmente a los Estados más allá del vínculo convencional. De hecho, Estados Unidos, Reino Unido, Alemania, Noruega o los Países Bajos (Francia ratificará el Convenio en breve) ya han asumido unilateralmente dichos principios.

España, al ratificar el Convenio, lidera ahora mismo un grupo de Estados que entienden que la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático es una obligación urgente ante las amenazas que plantean no solo los buscadores de tesoros sino muchas otras actividades humanas en el medio marino. Lo interesante en este caso para España es que, sin fisuras hasta ahora, los dos grandes partidos políticos han participado de la misma idea y han sostenido con firmeza las reclamaciones ante los tribunales estadounidenses (el PP durante los asuntos de La Juno y La Gala, el PSOE durante el asunto de La Mercedes). Hasta ahora, pues, la protección del patrimonio cultural subacuático ha sido una política jurídica nacional que ha merecido un Plan Nacional. Sigue siendo un reto para el nuevo Gobierno que, estoy seguro, continuará por esta senda de proteger un patrimonio de todos.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/Patrimonio/cultural/mar/elpepiopi/20120114elpepiopi_4/Tes
 

CanadianTrout

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Here's what google translate said of Alexandre's post:

(I only know how to order beer in Spanish ::) )



Spanish treasures beneath the sea


by Ignacio Arroyo Martínez, Professor of the Autonomous University of Barcelona and President of the Spanish Association of maritime law


The country, 29/12/2011


The successful Spanish policy in relation to the protection of underwater cultural heritage are in luck. Recent judicial decisions which help to clear three key issues. Who owns the shipwrecked remains, the former owners or rescuers? Who solves the dispute? There is no universally accepted solution?
Such simple questions demand answers certainly complex. But the information society imposes its criteria as soon as possible, at the risk of incurring dangerous simplifications.
The reflections that follow are beside the point of a general information already past and another recent more specific, but one cannot be explained without the other. I am referring to the fulfilment of the International Convention to protect the underwater cultural heritage and the recent American judicial sentences passed at the time of half a million gold coins recovered from the bottom of the sea and found among the remains of the Spanish frigate Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.
The international community is aware of the importance of the problem and has taken letters on the matter. After several decades of negotiation, through the auspices of Unesco, signed in Paris, on 2 November 2001, the International Convention on protection of the Underwater Cultural heritage. The Treaty establishes a uniform legal regime for all States, taking the same criteria, to avoid that national disparities endanger the aim main and peacefully shared, ensure and strengthen the protection of the underwater cultural heritage.
Discipline utilizes a set of instruments essential cooperation among States to responsible for public access, ranging from the preservation in situ, the use of own means of underwater archaeology, the prohibition of commercial exploitation, and respect for the sovereign immunity of ships and aircraft of State. It is also the legitimacy of the various States concerned; namely, the coastal State, the flag of the nationality of the holders and the nationality of the halladores or saviors. Powers that vary depending on the place where the wrecks are: internal waters, territorial sea, contiguous zone, exclusive economic zone and continental shelf or the high seas. Combination of factors that make highly complex discipline.
The Convention was passed with 87 votes for, 4 against and 15 abstentions, came into force on 2 January 2009, following the ratification of 20 States, and Spain incorporated into domestic law it on March 5, 2009. Such as Italy and Croatia countries, have ratified it, but United Kingdom, France and Germany not. United States has expressed its opposition on technical grounds, mainly by the ambiguity on the ships of State immunity and because at the time of the signing was not a member of Unesco. In any case, it continues to increase the number of countries that incorporate it into their legislation. What helps the progressive consolidation of the so-called weak right (soft law) and ends up becoming customary international law, compulsory time for non-ratifying States.
From that general context, it is worth stopping in recent judgments of the Court of appeal of the 11 circuit of USA, dated September 21, 2011 and endorsed by another on 29 November, not only because they give reason to the Kingdom of Spain against the American firm of bailouts Odyssey, in the famous case of the ship Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, but also because they help to understand better certain aspects of the previous questions.
The ship sank in 1804 and part of his remains have been recovered in international waters near the Strait of Gibraltar, at a depth of 1,100 metres. Specifically, 594,000 coins of gold and silver and various wrecks of cultural and historical value such as guns, rigging, and other cargoes. The experts discussed the economic value, between 400 and 500 million euros. But apart from the venal and Numismatic value, since they are coins minted in Lima in 1796, under the reign of Charles IV, so admirably portrayed by Goya, nobody puts in doubt its cultural and historical value. The currencies have remained intact on the seabed for over 200 years.
The Kingdom of Spain has faced, on the one hand, the company saving which alleges the American maritime law on findings and rescue (first came first served), whereby goods abandoned and saved belong to el salvador. On the other hand, to 25 individual people, who claim to be heirs of the owners of the cargo. And also spoke the Gobiern

*****************************************************************************

and....

GALLERY: MARIANO J. AZNAR
Cultural heritage under the sea


MARIANO j. AZNAR the country 14/01/2012


On December 29, 2011, in these same pages, Professor Arroyo carried out an interesting analysis of some of the developments taking place in the legal regime for the protection of underwater cultural heritage. Warning, rightly found before "simple questions requiring complex responses", the prestigious Professor of the University of Barcelona posed among others the following questions: "who belong the shipwrecked remains, the former owners or rescuers?" Who solves the dispute? There is no universally accepted solution? "."


In fact, they are complex to answer questions; and as soon as require us that these pages requires not produce excessively complicated arguments. That is why the first of mine goes in the title of this rostrum: it should speak of "cultural heritage", avoiding the term of "treasures".


If we speak of "treasures" to refer to the remains and the burden of the three Spanish frigates which makes reference, the Juno and La gauge - sunk in the waters under jurisdiction American - and the Mercedes - sunken on the continental shelf Portuguese-, we are limiting the question precisely to the sphere in which prefer to litigate the action of treasures (Sea Hunt and Odyssey) companies(, in such cases): the law of the sea, private nature, and courts Anglo-Saxons in the classic process of admiralty law where what is discussed is the discovery or the right of salvage. This is a process to recognize a title or an award on objects found at sea.


This explains, in part, the first aspect that attracts attention: that these processes be aired before the American courts. This jurisdiction, historically favorable to the treasure hunter, has a vocation of extraterritoriality which allows anyone to it expolie a cultural asset, regardless of where he is and under the pretext of invoking the discovery or the right of salvage (spuriously applied here), receive a compensation which in all cases has just ignored the cultural value of looted objects.


Unfortunately, none of these statements refers to the Unesco Convention on the protection of the underwater cultural heritage in 2001 or its inspiring principles, on the other hand expressly accepted by the American administration. Both in relation to the Juno and the gauge on the Mercedes us courts have defended a principle of public international law (and not of right marítimode private nature) which is the immunity sovereign of the sunken State vessels, operating in both cases from the jurisdiction of us courts on wrecks that continue to be owned in the Kingdom of Spain.


Private interests defending action treasures companies wanted a simple commercial profit from the commercialization of the objects, contrary to the fundamental principles of the protection of underwater cultural heritage. The interests of the State agree here with the "public interest" to preserve for future generations one explanation of our common history: one that trace routes, contacts, presence, and the misunderstandings of Spain and Europe with the American continent.


The sea is the largest museum in the world, and however, many continue to maintain - even legally - that anyone can come, appropriating any object found at sea, decontextualizing their archaeological space and trafficking with the aim of obtaining a lucrative business. Underwater cultural heritage is part of the overall heritage of human beings in this and future generations and should not be regulated by a law of the sea that seeks to private interests but by a public international law that defends public interests. Also, are also public internal rights which incorporate public domain this heritage, as does the current law 16/1985 of the Spanish historic heritage and will do so, I hope, the future law on Cultural Heritage Spanish. The principle of sovereign immunity, defended both by Spain and by other naval powers (including United States) means a State, except for express abandonment, maintains its sovereign rights on ship sunk, irrespective of the place where halle and State regardless of the time elapsed since its collapse. It remains publicly owned, governed by public law, that defends and ordered public interests.


Orderly participation of the private in such protection is perfectly possible and plausible, but from that point of view of managing and protecting a heritage of all. In fact, the future will
 

Shawmen

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage


Alexandre~ FYI this forum, thread, board, AND website are in ENGLISH, so please translate before posting... so someone else doesn't have to FOR YOU...

UNESCO is a joke, literally...Pretty much more of the spreading the wealth rhetoric (On someone else's dime and hard work of course)...

96% of the recovered shipwreck artifacts/treasures/data in the entire world would not happen if it were not for the private "for profit" salvor...who else is going to divuldge so much time and effort at their own expense for NOTHING?? The Archies of course, but unfortunately their bankroll is non-existent at best...

With the way things are going in this seriously screwed up world, Black Swan incidents will escalate, albeit in a much more clandestine manner...Mow the grass, gather the clippings, and take 'em back to the house...then we'll bitch about who's yard it was...

It is GOING TO GET where everything was a beach find, and if it doesn't pull the coin, into the smelter it goes...sad but true. Kudos to the guy up in JAX...stealth...run silent, run deep...come from behind the moon unannounced...watch out!! ($20 to whoever remembers where that last line came from)

While I'm up on my soapbox I guess I'll repost my thoughts on Spain...


Bottom line, Warships DO NOT carry fare paying passengers...

The ships in the 1715 fleet were functioning in a Cargo ship role, with the armament aboard being used for their own self protection. Would anyone here classify the cargo ships sailing in the Gulf of Aden, that have armed security aboard to protect against Somali pirates, as being Warships??? I don't think so.

Spain could do it's FAILING economy a whole lot of good by inking some salvage agreements on it's vessels sunken in foreign waters around the globe.

Just my two cents...
(Copper not Zinc)


Bottom line here folks...The Archies, Spain, Unesco, and every other orginization trying to squash the private entity from bringing up what it is they are seeking in the first place, would find themselves in a much more happy place if they would just let the private side do what it does, with fair compensation for their costs and efforts...

I personally have no problems at all with the best finds going to the museums/coffers of whomever is deemed the rightful partner in the expedition...but damn it all to hell, Evelyn...someone has got to pay for the fuel, equipment, wear and tear depreciation, divers, slip fees, spare eye patches, beer and liquor, bail bondsmen and strippers!! Azz, grazz, or gazz...nobody rides for free!!

STEP UP to the plate my "I SO GIVE A DAMN" friends...I'll be more then happy to bring it up for you...for a nominal fee.

GOOD hunting to ALL...

P.S. You can find some really good prices on smelters on Ebay!! :icon_pirat:

P.P.S. Ivan, I'm still trying to find my rebuttal to the St. Auggie storm/wreck theory... I believe it's in this 1715 Fleet book by Burgess, but having to re-read the first few chapters to find it. Will advise. No disrespect to you, as I greatly value your opinion here!


P.P.S.S. Cornelius, the wife advises I saved some of the "the wind" models/graphics from your old thread on a old computer at the house...unfortunately I'm on station till the 13th of February...will re-post them once I get home...That was a really great thread, maybe it'll get some fire under it again once I get 'em back on here...

Feb-RU-ary...that's kinda like Wed-NES-day...If you didn't have a nun beating you across the back with a yardstick at the chalkboard, you may not have ever remembered its proper spelling...Kinda goes along with my theory that, if you never had a working rotary phone in the house, chances are you're a "Occupy whatever" Idiot...
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Shawmen said:

Alexandre~ FYI this forum, thread, board, AND website are in ENGLISH, so please translate before posting... so someone else doesn't have to FOR YOU...

If people here are saying they are looking for Spanish ships and they do not know how to speak Spanish.... I would say they do not know what they are doing... ;)
 

aquanut

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre,
Your arrogance is showing...
 

cornelis 816

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Sep 3, 2010
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre. Why do you think we all have to speak Spanish ? How many do you think speak Dutch , knowing that Holland was one of the major players in the 16th and 17th century . Boy , you sure dropped on my opinion for you . Cornelius
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

cornelis 816 said:
Alexandre. Why do you think we all have to speak Spanish ? How many do you think speak Dutch , knowing that Holland was one of the major players in the 16th and 17th century . Boy , you sure dropped on my opinion for you . Cornelius


Cornelius, I manage to read a bit of Dutch. I have too, since I am researching the VOC Schoonhoven (I know where it wrecked).

I also speak French (it comes in handy for reading French records and archives), Spanish (have too, since we have a lot of Spanish wrecks here), a bit of German (had 4 years of it, managed to almost forget it all) and English.

Aquanut, if one doesnt speak Spanish, how is one suposed to do research?

Anyhow, I found it and posted it. Sincerely, I didnt went to all the trouble of having Google Translator going over it. Canadian Trout was curious enough to go and he did it.
 

aquanut

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre,
Research doesn't have to be a one man operation my friend. The old saying "No man is an Island" comes to mind!
Aquanut
 

tarpon192

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

aquanut said:
Alexandre,
Research doesn't have to be a one man operation my friend. The old saying "No man is an Island" comes to mind!
Aquanut
Very well put. I hope he understands - since it is in ENGLISH.
Another crony - thats my 2 bits.
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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Oct 21, 2009
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

aquanut said:
Alexandre,
Research doesn't have to be a one man operation my friend. The old saying "No man is an Island" comes to mind!
Aquanut

Aquanut... I am sure you can confirm some operations that have gone wrong due to poor research... I, for myself, like to research first: it saves me time and a lot of trouble. I prefer to delegate surveys underwater than to delegate historical research - but that's me.

There's also the money thing. Do you know how many people can search for and read documents such as this one? Not many, maybe a handful of people, worldwide. Do you know how much they charge you? Believe me, it saves me a lot of money.
 

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aquanut

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Jul 12, 2005
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre,
Unlike you, I prefer delegating historical research and performing the underwater research myself. There are good people available for historical research either willing to help, out of friendship, or those that would care to share their efforts for a share in the adventure. I also understand that simply being fluent in the spanish language is not the same as correctly deciphering the archaeic spanish in the archives. Misinterpretations come easily, as Mel Fisher found out the hard way.
Aquanut
 

Dell Winders

Sr. Member
Jan 18, 2012
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Archival research makes for good stories about the events. Has any shipwreck researchers viewed the Vatican archives? I'm confident the documents contained there would be more revealing than the Spanish archives. Dell
 

Shawmen

Jr. Member
Sep 7, 2010
61
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Tango Charlie
Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage


Dell~
REALLY glad to see you back above the humble radar...hope you and Ms. Trudy are both well...Please consider starting a thread with your pics from "back in the day", so folks here can FULLY appreciate your experience and knowledge!! Albeit it you may do things a might bit differently today, your past T-hunting endeavors are ones to be proud of!!

Welcome back aboard!!
 

Dell Winders

Sr. Member
Jan 18, 2012
412
241
Haines City, FL
Primary Interest:
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Thank You Shawman. It's too much effort for me to go through that loss again. My presence here may only be temporary.

Cold weather caught up with me before I could get a boat ready for water exploration. I'll be traveling this weekend to survey a possible Confederate/KGC land depository. My dream is to be back on the water again.

The Bahamanian senate voted to lift the Shipwreck moratorium and they have started to review applications. We have had our lease application in for over a year. I'm hoping good things will come from this.

I've donated the Rudder post, along with some other artifacts to a museum on Green Turtle Cay, Abaco. Also, I'm providing locations for them to recover shipwreck artifacts, and maybe Treasure, locally. I supplied them with a magic wand to help find Treasure. Sea's are too rough to do anything there now. but at the first chart location I provided, they found a 12 lb cannon ball, hand fanning under 18 inches of sand. This cannon ball is probably not Spanish, so I don't think I am taking anything away from Spain's cultural heritage . Dell
 

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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

tarpon192 said:
aquanut said:
Alexandre,
Research doesn't have to be a one man operation my friend. The old saying "No man is an Island" comes to mind!
Aquanut
Very well put. I hope he understands - since it is in ENGLISH.
Another crony - thats my 2 bits.
Simple minded People, No wonder SOME treasure hunters get such a bad name.
Ossy
 

cornelis 816

Sr. Member
Sep 3, 2010
466
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Who are you calling SIMPLE MINDED PEOPLE ? Cornelius
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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Oct 21, 2009
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435
Lisbon
Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Dell Winders said:
Archival research makes for good stories about the events. Has any shipwreck researchers viewed the Vatican archives? I'm confident the documents contained there would be more revealing than the Spanish archives. Dell

I have! As a matter of fact (and this is almost breaking news) a team of Portuguese historians has spent several years at the Secret Archive of the Vatican and has published three index volumes on the Vatican documents related to the Far East, the Atlantic Islands, Africa and Brazil:

http://www.esferadocaos.pt/pt/catalogo_detalhe_arquivossecretos135.html
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Jul 27, 2008
1,107
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

cornelis 816 said:
Who are you calling SIMPLE MINDED PEOPLE ? Cornelius
The People that only care about finding and selling treasure with disregard to the history !
But if the shoe fits.
Ossy
 

cornelis 816

Sr. Member
Sep 3, 2010
466
47
Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Listen Ossy . Pertaining to this thread you called some of us Simple minded . I asked you to name the people you are calling simple minded . Your remark ,, if the shoe fite ,, reflects unto me . Who are the other people you called simple minded ? Be a man and back up your statements . I for one am very insulted by you . Cornelius
 

mad4wrecks

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Dec 20, 2004
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Re: Spain's policy on Underwater Cultural Heritage

Alexandre, thank you for posting the most recent link. I am sure the Vatican archives hold some wonderful surprises, and are a treasure unto themselves. You are very fortunate to have been allowed access.
 

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