Spanish Cache in Central Texas
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acedigger
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Welcome to Tnet fellow Texan. Georgetowns not that far from Brownwood. I actually have some family that lives in Georgetown. That city is growing like mad. I have always wanted to hunt the university thats there. It looks so inviting.cindy1576 said:
Goodluck with the mding and if your ever up this way pm me and I can show you a few places to hunt.
Southern_Boy
Hero Member
Man I love stories of treasure and I really hope you find what you are looking for. I have got to share with you guys the story of possibly the largest greatest treasure ever! Here it is and I hope one of you guys can find it...the treasure that is.
The Copper Scroll (3Q15)
"In the fortress which is in the Vale of Achor, forty cubits under the steps entering to the east: a money chest and it [sic] contents, of a weight of seventeen talents." So begins the first column of the Copper Scroll, one of the most intriguing, and baffling, scrolls to be found among the collection known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Sounding like something out of an Indiana Jones movie, the text of the Copper Scroll (3Q15) describes vast amounts of buried treasure.
Click the image to view an enhanced version.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was found in 1952 in Cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea, one of the few scrolls to be discovered in the place where it had lain for nearly 2,000 years. Most of what are called the "Dead Sea Scrolls" were found by Bedouin and sold through antiquities dealers, but this one was actually discovered by archaeologists--a rare occasion during those years. In ancient times the text of the document had been incised on thin sheets of copper which were then joined together. At the time it was found, however, the document was rolled into two separate scrolls of heavily oxidized copper which was far too brittle to unroll. For five years scholars and experts discussed ways of opening the scroll. Finally, they decided to cut the scroll into sections from the outside using a small saw. Working very carefully they cut the scroll into 23 strips, each one curved into a half-cylinder. Before it was cut, one scholar thought he saw words for silver and gold and suggested that the scroll was a list of buried treasure. Sure enough, when it was deciphered that scholar turned out to be right!
What about all that treasure? What is it? Has anyone found it? The answer to the last question is, no, at least that they are telling.
The treasure described in the Copper Scroll consists of vast quantities of gold and silver, as well as many coins and vessels. It is difficult to assess the value of what is described, since we are not sure what the weights in the scroll are actually equivalent to, but it was estimated in 1960 that the total would top $1,000,000 U.S.
With this great treasure list, you may ask, why isn't everyone out looking for the treasure? (And why hasn't Stephen Spielberg made a movie out of it?) The truth is, some people are looking for it, but it is not all that easy. To begin with, we do not know what all the words in the text mean. The text is in Hebrew, which is certainly a known language, but most ancient Hebrew texts that we have are religious in nature, and the Copper Scroll is anything but religious. Most of its vocabulary is simply not found in the Bible or anything else we have from ancient times.
Not only is the vocabulary of the scroll very technical, some of the geographical locations are unknown after so many years, many are too specific and some refer to places that no longer exist. Take some of the following examples:
"In the gutter which is in the bottom of the (rain-water) tank..."
"In the Second Enclosure, in the underground passage that looks east..."
"In the water conduit of [...] the north[ern] reservoir..."
There are those who have suggested that the treasure never actually existed, that the Copper Scroll is simply a work of fiction. Even if the treasure did exist, we do not know where it came from or who it belonged to. Some believe the scrolls refer to Temple treasure, hidden for safekeeping before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 C.E. Others believe the treasure belonged to the sect that lived at Qumran, a sect usually identified with the Essenes, a Jewish group mentioned in the work of the Jewish historian Josephus, who wrote in the 1st century C.E. However, these are just educated guesses. Who the treasure belonged to, and what happened to it, we may never know.
The Copper Scroll (3Q15)
"In the fortress which is in the Vale of Achor, forty cubits under the steps entering to the east: a money chest and it [sic] contents, of a weight of seventeen talents." So begins the first column of the Copper Scroll, one of the most intriguing, and baffling, scrolls to be found among the collection known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Sounding like something out of an Indiana Jones movie, the text of the Copper Scroll (3Q15) describes vast amounts of buried treasure.
Click the image to view an enhanced version.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was found in 1952 in Cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea, one of the few scrolls to be discovered in the place where it had lain for nearly 2,000 years. Most of what are called the "Dead Sea Scrolls" were found by Bedouin and sold through antiquities dealers, but this one was actually discovered by archaeologists--a rare occasion during those years. In ancient times the text of the document had been incised on thin sheets of copper which were then joined together. At the time it was found, however, the document was rolled into two separate scrolls of heavily oxidized copper which was far too brittle to unroll. For five years scholars and experts discussed ways of opening the scroll. Finally, they decided to cut the scroll into sections from the outside using a small saw. Working very carefully they cut the scroll into 23 strips, each one curved into a half-cylinder. Before it was cut, one scholar thought he saw words for silver and gold and suggested that the scroll was a list of buried treasure. Sure enough, when it was deciphered that scholar turned out to be right!
What about all that treasure? What is it? Has anyone found it? The answer to the last question is, no, at least that they are telling.
The treasure described in the Copper Scroll consists of vast quantities of gold and silver, as well as many coins and vessels. It is difficult to assess the value of what is described, since we are not sure what the weights in the scroll are actually equivalent to, but it was estimated in 1960 that the total would top $1,000,000 U.S.
With this great treasure list, you may ask, why isn't everyone out looking for the treasure? (And why hasn't Stephen Spielberg made a movie out of it?) The truth is, some people are looking for it, but it is not all that easy. To begin with, we do not know what all the words in the text mean. The text is in Hebrew, which is certainly a known language, but most ancient Hebrew texts that we have are religious in nature, and the Copper Scroll is anything but religious. Most of its vocabulary is simply not found in the Bible or anything else we have from ancient times.
Not only is the vocabulary of the scroll very technical, some of the geographical locations are unknown after so many years, many are too specific and some refer to places that no longer exist. Take some of the following examples:
"In the gutter which is in the bottom of the (rain-water) tank..."
"In the Second Enclosure, in the underground passage that looks east..."
"In the water conduit of [...] the north[ern] reservoir..."
There are those who have suggested that the treasure never actually existed, that the Copper Scroll is simply a work of fiction. Even if the treasure did exist, we do not know where it came from or who it belonged to. Some believe the scrolls refer to Temple treasure, hidden for safekeeping before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 C.E. Others believe the treasure belonged to the sect that lived at Qumran, a sect usually identified with the Essenes, a Jewish group mentioned in the work of the Jewish historian Josephus, who wrote in the 1st century C.E. However, these are just educated guesses. Who the treasure belonged to, and what happened to it, we may never know.
lisfisher
Hero Member
Tall tale or not, you'll have fun searching for it. That's what it's all about. Look at Barry Clifford who discovered the Wyhdah. It was nothing more than local folklore. He ended up not only finding the ship but treasure galore to boot. Good luck and don't let the snakes git ya!
rfb3
Newbie
Any update on finding the cave? I am in Pottsboro, and would like to help...
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acedigger
Sr. Member
- Thread starter
- #28
cedarratt said:
I will have to check into that. Can you give me a hint as to what it says? Just to get my mind wandering?
I have been out to the place but haven't been able to locate anything. The country is so rough and hard to get around on. There is bound to be something there just haven't found it yet.
cedarratt
Hero Member
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Basically a large Spanish mining expedition was headed back to Mexico when they were jumped by Indians. After losing a number of their expiation (it is assumed that there were several hundred people in the expiation) they were force to bury approximately 75 burro loads of gold bars in a cave on a creek some where in central Texas. Then the rest of the group continued on with only a small number of bars. They stopped at what is now Barton Springs in Austin and buried the gold but then were attacked again and all killed but a young boy who continued on towards Mexico before being picked up and take the rest of the way. Later he returned and searched for the gold but could not find it. Years when by when a drunk ranch owner who used to dig pits and cook beef to sale in town for whiskey money found the gold while getting ready to roast a cow. He then traded his ranch to a doctor who had be after it for a long time for a Studebaker (the wagon not the car) . The doctor while examining his new property found the pit with impressions of gold bars in the bottom. A few days later the drunk made a sizable deposit in old Spanish bar to a bank in Austin. Then bought a huge ranch and half interest in a bank up north in Oregon.
Also if you do buy the book don't bother looking for the Germans buried treasure as it was already found in the 1880's heres the rest of that story.
LOST GOLD AT LAMPASAS RIVER
The late 1870's were difficult financial times for the Turnbo family with the loss of Andrew Jackson. Stories have circulated that there may have been a fortune in gold on their homeplace; had they only been able to find it, they would have become wealthy.
In March 1964, author Harry Christmas published a story in Real West Magazine that tells of this lost fortune. The story as written talks of the Turnbo homeplace.
Christmas wrote: "Just halfway between Waco and Austin, Texas, is the town of Belton. Nearby flow the Leon and Lampasas Rivers, through the Turnbo neighborhood, as it was called in the 1860's near Youngsport. In that vicinity, in the late 1870's, there had been traditions of buried gold there and these stories drew great attention to the region. But always from outsiders, rarely did those folks living nearby pay any attention to the tales of buried treasure, regarding them as foolish stories without basis or fact."
"One day three Mexican marineos came to the region. When questioned, they pleasantly passed off most of the questions put to them. They revealed only one thing: they were searching for buried gold, a large, stone jar of the treasure and three metal chests of gold."
"The residents watched the searchers. For ten days the marineros paced off distances, checked their compass and hacked holes in the ground. Then they left, as suddenly and as secretly as they came. But they found no gold, the settlers saw to that as they peered through the brush at them day after day, night after night, watching them at their campfires."
"A decade passed, then another. The residents who had watched them tried to forget about the gold. One day young Urvin decided to visit his father at Bertram. In traveling from the Turnbo’s where he was employed at the time, young Urvin cut across the McBride settlement, crossing the Lampasas River. After crossing the river, he sat down upon a 'rock' to wring out his socks which were wet from the river crossing."
"The place upon which he had sat down appeared strange to him, round on top, as though man-made. He examined it. It was the top portion of an old stone jar. Prying loose the lid he peered within. It was filled to the brim with gold coins of many sizes and descriptions, some dating back to 1671. Urvin became sly, afraid for his great wealth, and he took a pocketful of the gold coins and covered the jar with earth and brush."
"That evening, while at his father's house, a neighbor named John Harte of near Florence who was visiting in the neighborhood discovered Urvin counting and inspecting the coins. Urvin told Harte that he had won the gold playing poker. But Harte disbelieved him, and he told a Mr. Stanley of his disbelief. Soon, many in the county area knew that young Urvin had a pocketful of gold coins, and the talk grew."
"Young Urvin and a brother, who was at his father's home at that time, returned to the Jar, leading a saddle horse with two morrals, or nose bags, thrown over the back of the saddle. These they filled halfway with the remaining gold coins then covered the Jar again with earth and brush. When they returned to Bertram, they told a Eugene Gahn and a man named McDonald of their find. These men spread the story."
"At Belton, the story did not go far until it reached the ears of Moses Whitsitt. He went immediately to the Belton Journal, telling the editor that young Urvin was wanted for theft. He told that a merchant named Atkinson of Florence, who had been a rare coin collector, was robbed of his collection. He further made the claim that young Urvin's alias was Maxwell."
How did this matter turn out? Mr. Christmas says he has no Idea. The story reached him while he was researching other fields. This much may be added to aid those who do search for buried treasure. And it will assure them of the fundamental reasons to search for the two mariners' chests containing the cargo of gold the Mexican marineros sought in the long ago. ~
In the Georgetown Sun. Thursday, August 13, 1885, appeared a letter from Holland, Texas. It was in response to an article, which had appeared earlier in The Sun, on Thursday, July 28, 1885, which described the discovery of the gold coins by Urvin.
It read:
Dear Sirs;
I found $11,300.00 in old Spanish coin and have it now In U. S. currency. As to my name It Is A. C. Urvin. I have both father and mother and two brothers to prove my connections...
I am now living in the neighborhood of Holland with G. T. Smith. I am no thief or robber. I will be In Belton this week and see you. I can prove as good a character, from my childhood down to this time, as any man In Texas.
Yours truly,
A. C. Urvin
"But what about the seamen's chests and the gold cargemento de navio? Did Urvin return and make the greater discovery, one of which he was most certainly unaware when he found the original stone Jar and its treasure? Or, did the stories of the metal chests of gold start after Urvin's Initial discovery of Spanish Sold coins?"
"These questions we must leave to those who study the matter further and pursue the treasure trail. They are only the most sketchy, fundamental facts about the lost gold Jar on the Lampasas. They are all that is known to this writer. The two newspaper stories are the only factual material, the balance of the story was gleaned from old timers who contributed bits of fancy and folklore." (From: Harry E. Christmas, "Real West Magazine", Editor: Philip R. Rand, Volume VII, No. 34 (March, 1964), pp. 17, 56.)
This magazine was brought to the writer's attention by W. A. "Doug" Turnbo who says he's heard nothing more of the gold. One thing is for sure, the Turnbos lost a hired hand named Urvin after his discovery.
Source:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~turnbo/tx/pg39.htm
Also if you do buy the book don't bother looking for the Germans buried treasure as it was already found in the 1880's heres the rest of that story.
LOST GOLD AT LAMPASAS RIVER
The late 1870's were difficult financial times for the Turnbo family with the loss of Andrew Jackson. Stories have circulated that there may have been a fortune in gold on their homeplace; had they only been able to find it, they would have become wealthy.
In March 1964, author Harry Christmas published a story in Real West Magazine that tells of this lost fortune. The story as written talks of the Turnbo homeplace.
Christmas wrote: "Just halfway between Waco and Austin, Texas, is the town of Belton. Nearby flow the Leon and Lampasas Rivers, through the Turnbo neighborhood, as it was called in the 1860's near Youngsport. In that vicinity, in the late 1870's, there had been traditions of buried gold there and these stories drew great attention to the region. But always from outsiders, rarely did those folks living nearby pay any attention to the tales of buried treasure, regarding them as foolish stories without basis or fact."
"One day three Mexican marineos came to the region. When questioned, they pleasantly passed off most of the questions put to them. They revealed only one thing: they were searching for buried gold, a large, stone jar of the treasure and three metal chests of gold."
"The residents watched the searchers. For ten days the marineros paced off distances, checked their compass and hacked holes in the ground. Then they left, as suddenly and as secretly as they came. But they found no gold, the settlers saw to that as they peered through the brush at them day after day, night after night, watching them at their campfires."
"A decade passed, then another. The residents who had watched them tried to forget about the gold. One day young Urvin decided to visit his father at Bertram. In traveling from the Turnbo’s where he was employed at the time, young Urvin cut across the McBride settlement, crossing the Lampasas River. After crossing the river, he sat down upon a 'rock' to wring out his socks which were wet from the river crossing."
"The place upon which he had sat down appeared strange to him, round on top, as though man-made. He examined it. It was the top portion of an old stone jar. Prying loose the lid he peered within. It was filled to the brim with gold coins of many sizes and descriptions, some dating back to 1671. Urvin became sly, afraid for his great wealth, and he took a pocketful of the gold coins and covered the jar with earth and brush."
"That evening, while at his father's house, a neighbor named John Harte of near Florence who was visiting in the neighborhood discovered Urvin counting and inspecting the coins. Urvin told Harte that he had won the gold playing poker. But Harte disbelieved him, and he told a Mr. Stanley of his disbelief. Soon, many in the county area knew that young Urvin had a pocketful of gold coins, and the talk grew."
"Young Urvin and a brother, who was at his father's home at that time, returned to the Jar, leading a saddle horse with two morrals, or nose bags, thrown over the back of the saddle. These they filled halfway with the remaining gold coins then covered the Jar again with earth and brush. When they returned to Bertram, they told a Eugene Gahn and a man named McDonald of their find. These men spread the story."
"At Belton, the story did not go far until it reached the ears of Moses Whitsitt. He went immediately to the Belton Journal, telling the editor that young Urvin was wanted for theft. He told that a merchant named Atkinson of Florence, who had been a rare coin collector, was robbed of his collection. He further made the claim that young Urvin's alias was Maxwell."
How did this matter turn out? Mr. Christmas says he has no Idea. The story reached him while he was researching other fields. This much may be added to aid those who do search for buried treasure. And it will assure them of the fundamental reasons to search for the two mariners' chests containing the cargo of gold the Mexican marineros sought in the long ago. ~
In the Georgetown Sun. Thursday, August 13, 1885, appeared a letter from Holland, Texas. It was in response to an article, which had appeared earlier in The Sun, on Thursday, July 28, 1885, which described the discovery of the gold coins by Urvin.
It read:
Dear Sirs;
I found $11,300.00 in old Spanish coin and have it now In U. S. currency. As to my name It Is A. C. Urvin. I have both father and mother and two brothers to prove my connections...
I am now living in the neighborhood of Holland with G. T. Smith. I am no thief or robber. I will be In Belton this week and see you. I can prove as good a character, from my childhood down to this time, as any man In Texas.
Yours truly,
A. C. Urvin
"But what about the seamen's chests and the gold cargemento de navio? Did Urvin return and make the greater discovery, one of which he was most certainly unaware when he found the original stone Jar and its treasure? Or, did the stories of the metal chests of gold start after Urvin's Initial discovery of Spanish Sold coins?"
"These questions we must leave to those who study the matter further and pursue the treasure trail. They are only the most sketchy, fundamental facts about the lost gold Jar on the Lampasas. They are all that is known to this writer. The two newspaper stories are the only factual material, the balance of the story was gleaned from old timers who contributed bits of fancy and folklore." (From: Harry E. Christmas, "Real West Magazine", Editor: Philip R. Rand, Volume VII, No. 34 (March, 1964), pp. 17, 56.)
This magazine was brought to the writer's attention by W. A. "Doug" Turnbo who says he's heard nothing more of the gold. One thing is for sure, the Turnbos lost a hired hand named Urvin after his discovery.
Source:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~turnbo/tx/pg39.htm
badweatherjohn
Jr. Member
My wife, from Mexico, told me the story that her father was hunting on the mexican side near the Big Bend area, and during a storm, made his way into a cave that he stumbled across......same thing you were speaking of, conquistador helmets and other armor, remnants of clothing, also spanish dabloons(?), he brought a coin home with him and had the coin for a long time, my wife remembers seeing it, it was large, but he has died since, and before he died the coin went missing, he had a lot of workers, so likely one of them got it, to the best of my knowledge he never returned to the site......but he was the type to not want to tell where it is located, so it wouldn't be disturbed, cause he said there were remains there as well.... i've stayed down in old mexico awhile, and heard numerous stories about other treasures, especially in the state of Coahuila......that place is a definite good place to go THing, once someone sees you with a detector, stories will flow
Red_desert
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I was wondering acedigger, what direction from San Saba your friend's property is... possibly having a Spanish cave on it?
I have been taking a good look at the area and there were plenty of rich silver caves near the Colorado River area, especially where the San Saba River joins it. The Spanish gold caches made near San Saba, are some of the largest I've ever read about. Did you find anything yet?
I have been taking a good look at the area and there were plenty of rich silver caves near the Colorado River area, especially where the San Saba River joins it. The Spanish gold caches made near San Saba, are some of the largest I've ever read about. Did you find anything yet?
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acedigger
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Red_desert said:I was wondering acedigger, what direction from San Saba your friend's property is... possibly having a Spanish cave on it?
I have been taking a good look at the area and there were plenty of rich silver caves near the Colorado River area, especially where the San Saba River joins it. The Spanish gold caches made near San Saba, are some of the largest I've ever read about. Did you find anything yet?
The property is actually on the Brown/Comanche county line. Not too far from San Saba. Maybe an hours drive.
I have not gone out there to look in a while. The rattlesnakes are way too thick right now to go walking around. You can literally see dozens of snakes just walking through the place. We always carry guns when we are out there just in case.
Old Dog
Gold Member
Oro Tag
Red_desert
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Oh, that is just North of the area where I was taking a look at with Search TerraServer. I use Google Earth also, but here is another map tool. With the TerraServer, I would get the map, then when it comes on you see the aerial photo. I clicked the Topo tab to start zooming in...helps to zoom out some to see where to go first...you might try it on your friend's property. Get in as close as you can with the Topo maps, shows old wells, roads, etc. Once you reach the limit for close up, by then clicking the Aerial tab...it has even closer aerial photos... maybe get in much closer to take a look. In the area North of Shaw Bend, the photos were so close you could see the rock rubble at the bottom of a hillside.
Here is the TerraServer link...
http://terraserver-usa.com/address.aspx
I checked the Topo maps up close where San Saba River runs into the Colorado River...all the way up to East of San Saba Peak, from North of Shaw Bend (across the river) down to Green Mountain which is just North of where the 2 rivers join.
Happy TH when you get there...yeah snakes, you got some of the biggest rattlesnakes.
Here is the TerraServer link...
http://terraserver-usa.com/address.aspx
I checked the Topo maps up close where San Saba River runs into the Colorado River...all the way up to East of San Saba Peak, from North of Shaw Bend (across the river) down to Green Mountain which is just North of where the 2 rivers join.
Happy TH when you get there...yeah snakes, you got some of the biggest rattlesnakes.
Try the Garden Ridge,TX Area...Everybody stopped there near the Cibolo Creek on the Old "Camino Real". I heard a story much like this one from several people. I would search a line from Selma to Comfort.However, there are many,many caves along the Edwards. Good luck! Also, I remember reading a story in the 80's of some fella named Gene Wade I believe who found several bars outside of Selma in the late 60's. Also-If it were me, stick to caves in accessible areas as loads were heavy,conditions were not good, and hostility more than likely existed.
Hey acedigger I know a History teacher at Cisco Jr College who can tell you the Spanish in central Texas (Brownwood and Cisco areas) and there was a LOT OF IT . He can be reached at the old Cisco City Hall. Also there is a man in Comanche need to talk with. This men know their stuff.
I live in Houston now but spent 45 years in Abilene.
I live in Houston now but spent 45 years in Abilene.
I know where one is - but I am just responding to this to watch the topic 8)
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acedigger
Sr. Member
- Thread starter
- #38
Hello everyone. I apologize for not keeping in touch with this thread but its been a long few months. I have been super busy with everything and haven't had any time to research this much. I need to get back out there but at this time there are so many rattlesnakes out, that I am hesitant on doing so. I did get a key from the landowner so I pretty much have free reign on the property whenever I like. I am researching several places right now that look promising but I am also trying to stay under the radar with the locals. The town I live in only has 400 people in it so word travels fast. I am also studying the signs and symbols of the KGC just in case there might be some relation.
A56digger -- Will you PM me the info on the guy in Comanche? I will try and get in touch with him.
A56digger -- Will you PM me the info on the guy in Comanche? I will try and get in touch with him.
Red_desert
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Hey acedigger, good to hear from you...if you get in contact with that person, might also try to quiz him about whether another Spanish mission existed around there...besides the San Saba Mission. It seems that between San Saba and the property you have just got access to, a couple places there...packs on mules carrying a load of gold had to be cached because they were in danger. In each case the mule loads of gold were on the way to a Spanish mission in the area. These caches were probably NE of San Saba but SE of your friend's property.
Anyway, good luck and happy TH'ing!
Anyway, good luck and happy TH'ing!
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acedigger
Sr. Member
- Thread starter
- #40
Red_desert said:Hey acedigger, good to hear from you...if you get in contact with that person, might also try to quiz him about whether another Spanish mission existed around there...besides the San Saba Mission. It seems that between San Saba and the property you have just got access to, a couple places there...packs on mules carrying a load of gold had to be cached because they were in danger. In each case the mule loads of gold were on the way to a Spanish mission in the area. These caches were probably NE of San Saba but SE of your friend's property.
Anyway, good luck and happy TH'ing!
Red,
Another place that I have unlimited access to is located on a river. I will not name this river but needless to say it is in some pretty rough country. The same family has owned the property for close to 100 years. Through one of the family members they told me that their granddad found a tree with 3 X's carved into it. He had heard of treasure tales in the area. He left and was unable to locate the tree later. He did find a human skull on the property. He took it to the local university and never heard anything else about it. They wouldn't tell him anything. He figured it to be indian but who knows. The place has alot of history on it and I'm at the early stages of researching this place. Like I mentioned earlier, I have way too many irons in the fire right now. But I will keep in touch.
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