Still learning - are these worked edges? Additional requested pics

[BearCreek]

The first 4 pics are the full-size pics of the objects in my previous post. I included pics 5 and 6 to show the other type of things I'm finding. They are very smooth so how do you tell if they are smoothed by man or the creek? I also included a pic of where I found them. It is a steep curve in our creek that washes up rock bars and has a deeper pool thata washed up a large sand and rock mound. It is in NW Georgia. It originates in the Blue Ridge Mts. and drains into a large river not far from our property. Thank you so much for your help!

 

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[Charl]

You stated in the other thread by this title that being told something is a "natural rock" does not help you learn much. Let me explain one of the problems that exists. And it's a problem that is even tougher to solve on an Internet forum then in person. When I judge if a rock is an artifact or just a natural rock, the recognition on my part is pretty much immediate. I do not have to go through a long analysis in my mind, a check list to be checked. No, years of experience has made that unnecessary. My knowledge has become second nature. And therein is the problem. When knowledge, in this case distinguishing a rock from an artifact, has become second nature, it also becomes extremely tough to describe to a novice how the conclusions are arrived at.


For someone with enough experience distinguishing the difference, it's accurate to say "we just know". That does you little good, but the real problem is experienced eyes cannot give you the experience you need to be able to recognize. Can't do it, because the recognition is second nature, and can't do it because this is an Internet forum. So what, you say? What does a forum have to do with it? Well, you need to be taught live, in living color, in person. You need someone actually showing you a natural rock, and artifacts and attempting an education in person. Doing it here is well nigh impossible when all is said and done. Depending, in part, at what you're showing us. Education here is not 100% impossible, naturally. But compared to handing a rock back and forth? It's a very distant second choice compared to live.


This book is good at showing photos of how a rock is turned into an artifact through lithic reduction. Very few of the artifact guide books go through the trouble of showing one all the stages involved in turning a rock into a tool. So I recommend it to many folks, and not just the novice. It also illustrates many casual, crude artifacts that even experienced eyes miss because they are so casually crafted.

http://www.amazon.com/Artifacts-prehistoric-America-Louis-Brennan/dp/0811701743

The last two rocks in your post are just natural rocks. (I guess the elongated one could be an un grooved plummet, but it's unlikely. More photos of that one might lead to different conclusions). But, before I told you that, I wanted you to realize just how truly difficult it is to teach you why they are natural in the format of an Internet forum. It's incredibly difficult! I know they are just rocks from experience, but how do I teach you over the Internet?!!? Those rocks show no work. Some artifacts have all the flaking work removed and are ground to a finish, but what tools would those rocks represent? None! You have a great deal to learn, but most of it will be via experience and just cannot be taught here beyond phrases like "it shows no human alteration", etc. Terms and phrases that will mean little to you. Sometimes, the best solution is to latch onto an experienced collector and tag along, or visit them and their collection and learn things live, where it becomes somewhat easier. But nothing will ever replace experience.

Final thought: Experienced collectors are replete with second nature knowledge. Every bit born of experience. And few are geared to somehow find someway to convey second nature knowledge to someone with little to no knowledge. It's actually a big challenge when one's experience makes step by step analysis unnecessary. When I see a rock, I "just know" it's a rock. But how do I teach "just know" to someone without experience? The work and the effort is all on the experienced, and it is a huge challenge at times. This all novices need to understand.

 

[DigIron2]

You should write a book Charl. Not much into reading big posts but that one caught my attention. Well said! I think I see some notched serrations on the second one.

 

[BearCreek]

Thank you Charl I will check out the link you recommended. Learning links are very helpful! I agree, teaching someone on a forum is no comparison to having a person right there to share their thinking and answer questions. It may be forum accurate to say "we just know", but as a teacher, as well as a teacher of teachers, I've spent a career teaching students and educators to seek understanding of "why". It's a natural stone because..., that is from creek tumbling because..., etc. I think that if I post a pic of something that does not show work, perhaps someone would have a pic of something that does show work and could explain what they notice as far as the differences.

This response from Get-the-point was very helpful in helping me understand what omars are and what you would notice in a stone that is not an omar: "It is natural. A circular pattern would be at the hole if it was used as a firestarter. It shows no.evidence of pecking to form. A sharpening stone would show striation marks indicating back and forth motion. ......you can look at Omar's or rocks with holes and you will see countless identical examples.............".

I really do appreciate you taking the time to look at my pics and share your thinking on them. Thanks Charl!

 

[austin]

Remember how much experience we needed before they turned us loose to teach, especially at that higher level. Finding artifacts is the same. I started at the age of about 7 here in Texas and it does come to you over time. Old timers helped me, daddy helped me, hunting in real promising areas helped me, haunting museums, rock stores and shows helped me. Asking questions, reading books and just practicing everywhere I went helped me. I'm pushing 70, sometimes still hunt and am still learning. It's all fun and it's an adventure that lasts a lifetime. Just enjoy and whatever you do, don't quit posting and asking questions. I don't post because I have no camera or scanner and truthfully just love golf much more than MDing. Hole #15 at Brackenridge Park here has arrowheads all over the sides of the built up green. Used to pick them up and give them to the starter to give to his kid so I could play free all the time. Have given my finds to UTSA since I'm geezer age. But boy, what memories. You'll have them too. Just keep looking...

 

[Charl]

Thank you Charl I will check out the link you recommended. Learning links are very helpful! I agree, teaching someone on a forum is no comparison to having a person right there to share their thinking and answer questions. It may be forum accurate to say "we just know", but as a teacher, as well as a teacher of teachers, I've spent a career teaching students and educators to seek understanding of "why". It's a natural stone because..., that is from creek tumbling because..., etc. I think that if I post a pic of something that does not show work, perhaps someone would have a pic of something that does show work and could explain what they notice as far as the differences.

This response from Get-the-point was very helpful in helping me understand what omars are and what you would notice in a stone that is not an omar: "It is natural. A circular pattern would be at the hole if it was used as a firestarter. It shows no.evidence of pecking to form. A sharpening stone would show striation marks indicating back and forth motion. ......you can look at Omar's or rocks with holes and you will see countless identical examples.............".

I really do appreciate you taking the time to look at my pics and share your thinking on them. Thanks Charl!

Well, this is why I said it is not 100% impossible to teach a beginner something in a forum format. I'm sure Chris did a good job describing what an Omar is. But that's not hard to do. I was a teacher for a spell. Even got a degree in geology. But I taught History. But not without a lesson plan. Most of us here, myself included, are not teachers of how to distinguish rock from artifact. Most of us learned that through experience, and don't even remember the steps we may have had to go through in our minds to learn the distinction. To get to the point where recognizing when a rock was just a rock became second nature. In a way, you're still talking as if you think it must all be as easy as describing to someone what an Omar is. But it's often not that easy at all. Especially when we are not ourselves teachers of a subject that we no longer have to think through. Surely you understand how difficult it is to teach what has become second nature, and what may have become second nature knowledge decades ago?

In your original thread by this title, another poster told you early on to take anything said to you here with a grain of salt, because folks don't enlarge the photos. He was upset that people did not recognize he had artifacts showing amidst many ordinary rocks. Yet, if he knew they were artifacts, why was he grouping them with the non artifacts and asking if they were artifacts, if he already knew they were artifacts? IMO, that poster painted a broad stroke of this forum that was unfair. The novice bears some responsibility for teaching themselves. As in immersing themselves in real artifacts up the yin yang so as to know what they look like.

Another thing that should be kept in mind is that beginners with rocks don't show up once in a blue moon. It happens multiple times a week. Hence the inclination to make it short and sweet: "that's just a rock". And when the beginner says "why?", and we are not by profession teachers of the art of distinguishing rocks not altered by man from rocks altered by man, how do we go about teaching the difference? You may be expecting the kind of teachers that we collectors are not. Not everything, like an Omar, is simple to explain. And, because this happens multiple times a week, it is simply asking too much, IMHO, to expect there will always be detailed replies beginning "that's just a rock because...." You may be expecting too much patience on our part, as well as expecting everything is as easy to explain as an Omar. You ask for teachers, but is it fair to expect these teaching lessons upteen times, every single time a beginner shows up? I think it is expecting too much. If a beginner is told "visit and view as many collections of genuine artifacts as you possibly can", it puts the responsibility on the beginner. We will help as we are able, but the beginner has a responsibility to help themselves. Complaining that one should take what is said here with a grain of salt, as that one poster did, is a low opinion of the forum, and is absolving oneself of some responsibility to learn from many venues, not just an Internet forum.

If I had to teach the lessons you expect, multiple times a week on a forum, whether this one or others, would I? Would you? Over and over and over again?? Personally, I think it is asking a lot. Chris had an advantage. Explaining an Omar is not so hard. In general, it's not at all as easy as some expect it should be. Especially when one is asked to do so again and again and again....

I can give you some advice. Learn what flaked artifacts look like. Visit museums, view collections whenever you can find them, online, or in person. And leave rocks that are not flaked in the stream where you find them. Stop collecting them altogether. Start with learning to recognize flaked artifacts. The second of the first two pieces you showed us here, the same ones from the original thread, looks like it might be a worked flake tool. Leave the big smooth rocks be until you've learned to recognize what 99.9% of the artifacts you find will always be: flaked stone tools. Learn those first. You may find large ground stone tools someday, but it will always be a rare event. Start with flaked artifacts. The two pieces that began the original thread show you are on the right track in that respect. Stick with it, and for now, unless they are screaming "I am a full groove axe, collect me!!!", leave 'em be and stick to rocks that seem to show flaking. And, as I said, that second one might be a retouched flake, a flake blade, it may be artifactual!

 

[rock]

1st and 2nd could of been worked a bit. 1st looks like they couldnt use it and tossed it nice material though. 2nd looks like a flake tool that is broken in half. Flake tools were used as scrapers and made rather quickly used maybe once then tossed. Keep looking creek is small but might hold something for you. Beavers will dig the banks out for their homes and knock rocks and artifacts into the creeks and of course water erosion helps to when the creeks flood. Dont ignore the current flow in the middle artifacts will tumble and stick in the deeper sections more so that the rock bars. Get a pair of fishing glasses that will cut the glare and have a look. Hope you find a good one soon, good luck

 

[Charl]

Lol, ya gotta really like to read, to wade into my posts, lol. Sorry 'bout that, but once a writer, always a writer.....

 

[Charl]

BearCreek, maybe I can pretend to be a teacher of how to distinguish rock from artifact, and you tell me if I actually helped. That next to last photo. The big unevenly shaped rock. It's just a rock. So, why? Although you have not showed all sides, I will assume it shows unbroken skin everywhere. Therefore, it is just a rock due to 2 reasons: One, it does not have the shape of any known tool form. Two, the skin or cortex of the cobble is completely unbroken. And that's why it is just a rock, not an artifact. Notice that this explanation is bound to raise more questions for a beginner. What is skin? What is cortex? It is the unbroken surface of a weathered pebble or cobble. Once that cortex is broken, it then becomes a matter of deciding if it was broken by natural forces or human hands. Maybe all this helps. Or maybe it does not. But one can only go so far teaching these things in an Internet forum venue. My guess is that telling someone their rock shows 100% unbroken cortex will only go so far. Experience seeing rocks reduced via flaking will teach one far more, and the beginner has the responsibility of viewing genuine artifacts fashioned from rock until they go bugged eyed doing so.....

 

[Charl]

Here's your unmodified cobble again. Remember I said one reason you can know it's "just a rock" is because it does not conform to any known tool form. That helps to know. But then your responsibility comes into play. It's your responsibility to learn what all the tool forms crafted by Native Americans look like. Some are found coast to coast, like the various axe forms. But some may be restricted to certain regions, or certain cultures, or certain periods of time. My responsibility is not to provide illustrations of every single possible tool form for comparison to this rock. I really can only tell you what I have: it's only a rock because it conforms to no known tool form, and the cortex is unbroken. And we'll assume that cortex or skin also shows no usage. Because some rocks were just picked up as is, and then used as is. Like a crude grinding stone for example. Or a hammerstone. Might show usage, but also show it was never actually shaped by man before being put to use. Still a tool, just not altered by flaking or grinding.

So, to understand that this stone conforms to no known tool form requires that you learn what all the various Native American tool forms look like, so you can eliminate a rock like this yourself, without having to ask anybody....

 

[BearCreek]

Charl that is actually extremely helpful to me. When you are just learning you don't always know what questions to ask or where to start your journey. Just the sentence about unbroken skin/ unbroken cortex will send me out researching what that means, looking for examples and increasing my knowledge. I've been doing a lot of research on my own about the geology of my area, the origin and destination of my creek, the history of who lived in my specific area, the tools and artifacts that might be here, and the process used to create them.

The "potato" stone had several interesting characteristics that made me curious enough to pick it up. One side has a rounded beak like point, the direct opposite side has a raised circular area that looks as thought it was smoothed flat. The top midline area has a kind of scalloped ridge of small rounded points. There are also a few places where the surface/skin of the rock is broken as though it was used for something. It is a very hard stone and feels like a doctor's percussion reflex hammer when you tap it on your hand...although it is so hard and so heavy it could be used as a weapon or to break something. I love the mystery of interesting stones like this and have fun picking them up and trying to figure out what they are or are not. I'm happy to share detailed pics if anyone is interested.You have shared some great information with me about my "potato" looking stone that will help me further my knowledge and I'm really grateful.

I did some learning about the conchoidal fractures and went back and looked for the circular ripples like on a mussel shell on the black piece (black obsidian?) I found. I don't see any, but I also haven't found information on a similar looking tool that it could have been used for. That being said, I have two other pieces from the same area that are very similar in the way they are made. I need to learn more about the bulb of percussion and get some practice identifying it.

I haven't used a forum before and perhaps I was mistaken in what I thought a forum is for. I'm under no illusion that I'm chatting with geologists or archeologists, just people who also have fun looking for links to our past. While I don't expect beginner lessons or patience with beginner questions from anyone who doesn't wish to give them, I think you have some great information to share with beginners. I think you do a great job without a lesson plan and have enjoyed talking with you. Maybe someone would be interested in having a sub-forum and compiling some posts that address FAQ that beginners typically ask and some links that would help them get started.

I have had some great conversations with members who seem to enjoy sharing what they know with newbies like me. I have even found someone in my area to come out and help me with where and what to look for in my creek. At the end of the day I'm having fun and learning...even if my creek is full of nothing but wildy interesting natural rocks.

 

[Charl]

BearCreek, glad you found my suggestions useful. I would suggest, whatever state you live in, just start by googling "Native American stone artifacts of 'fill in state'" By far, the vast majority of artifacts will be flaked stone. Where bigger artifacts are concerned, like ground stone tools, learn the various tool forms common throughout the prehistoric past in North America and your own region of the country. There are many, but it is a finite number. When you're starting out, there is no substitute for seeing with your eyes as many genuine stone tools as possible, and as many examples, from the finest to the crudest.


The way to not go about it is to just pick up interesting looking rocks, or interesting shaped rocks, and then trying to learn if it's an artifact. Try to first learn what verified tools look like, see as many examples as possible of each type of tool form from your region. Make them as familiar as the back of your hand. Then, if you see a rock that makes a light go off, as in " hey, is that a celt, it looks like celts I've seen", collect that and inquire. But, otherwise, leave the big rocks alone until you are really familiar with all those larger tool forms. They will always be very rare finds regardless of your experience level. Instead, since 99% of what we all find will be flaked stone artifacts like projectile points, knives, scrapers, drills, etc. just concentrate on learning what man made flaking looks like. Those are the artifacts you will end up finding most often.

Learn the lithic types most common to your region, and then look for those type of rocks as you walk streams or corn fields after heavy rains. For example, there may be a type of chert or flint commonly used by natives in your area. Learn really well what that chert looks like. When you see a piece of it in the stream bed, jump on it! It may just be a flake, but you'll be learning to recognize it when you see it. And before you know it, you'll pick a piece of that chert up and realize you are holding a projectile point! You saw a piece of chert you learned was something to watch for, and bingo, you did it.

Not saying you are approaching things this way, but if you just pick up interesting rocks without first getting really familiar with what tool forms actually look like, you're going about things the long, hard way.

It really is all a function of experience. With enough time and seeing the real deal, in books, in collections, in museums, eventually things will " just click" and the day will come when you will "just know". You will have pulled yourself up by the bootstraps and find that you have become an experienced artifact hunter.

 

[sandchip]

Good looking creek that you need to walk from one end to the other after every heavy rain. I'd just about bet something good will turn up with edges that you'll have no questions about being worked. Good luck!