Stone Bowl

[tonykidd]

Unearthed this stone bowl. It had a broken stone pipe, scraper and a hammer stone/pestle in the bowl. I save the dirt to have analyzed for contents. I haven't been able to find anything resembling this anywhere on the web. Pretty cool.

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[rock]

Just going to throw this out there doesnt matter where it lands and I mean no disrespect to anyone. Maybe just maybe somebody had collected them as their collection and passed away or something then the family decided just to bury all of it to get rid of it. Just my 2 cents

 

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[tonykidd]

Just going to throw this out there doesnt matter where it lands and I mean no disrespect to anyone. Maybe just maybe somebody had collected them as their collection and passed away or something then the family decided just to bury all of it to get rid of it. Just my 2 cents

Anything is possible, but they'd have to have a hell of a collection to spread it over the area. It's about 50 yards by 50 yards for thrbdecorative stuff, but the points are scattered for hundreds of yards square.

 

[monsterrack]

Tony I would love to read ANY report done by the state on this site. Also you do know that we can enlarge these photos to a great degree and in doing so the copper nuggets and the snake #1 copper wire looks to be a plant to me. I have unearthed a lot of items in sand, clay, loess soil and that's not the way they look when you uncover them, some of your items are almost in a boot print and has for the patina, a little sulphur and sodium nitrate will do the same to copper, but if you can post some papers by the state which there should be a ton of by now, I will eat my words and post them all over the internet. with I am sorry.

 

[tonykidd]

Tony I would love to read ANY report done by the state on this site. Also you do know that we can enlarge these photos to a great degree and in doing so the copper nuggets and the snake #1 copper wire looks to be a plant to me. I have unearthed a lot of items in sand, clay, loess soil and that's not the way they look when you uncover them, some of your items are almost in a boot print and has for the patina, a little sulphur and sodium nitrate will do the same to copper, but if you can post some papers by the state which there should be a ton of by now, I will eat my words and post them all over the internet. with I am sorry.

This is private property, and there are no state archaeologists on site. We have consulting archaeologists off site, but they are not allowed on the property. Not my land, not my rules. As far as planting things, think what you want. I've shown you exactly what we found in the state it was found. Draw your own conclusions; I don't care. I don't know you people, i could care less if you're impressed, so I can't think of a reason to lie to you. I thought this forum was for sharing and informational purposes, but I have been proven wrong. Believe me, I understand how mind boggling this is, and how many of these things go against conventional wisdom. This is in the middle of nowhere, and when I say nowhere, I mean nowhere. I guess I could have purchased all of these things from somewhere and distributed them 20 or 30 years ago before the trees were planted, waited, then began "discovering" them again. That is a possibility, and I guess some people feel the need to do those sort of things. We are having the copper tested for origin. We are having a piece of the hafting wood from a copper spear point carbon dated at UGA because they have the most time specific dating and the people at Florida State recommended we send it there for more accuracy. I am meeting with arguably the most renowned expert in the country on notched points in March. We are having the contents of the bowl scanned, x-rayed and run through a mass spectrometer to analyze the content. When those are done, we'll have some reports. Until then, everyone can scream "fake" all they want, if it makes them feel better. But you know, I've been involved from the beginning in a once-in-a-lifetime experience excavating the burials at the Lake Jackson Mound complex and Mound 3, the burial mound. We unearthed the bodies of 1,000 year old Indians, and we kept all of the burial goods. They were, and still are, unbelievable. You can read about it anywhere. If any of you want to travel to Tallahassee to see them, I can drag them out and you can hold them, photograph them, even have your picture taken with them. Hell, we even had the head archaeologist for the state come by in May to do all of the above. But..and maybe because of this, I would never question what anybody posts on this forum. Call it naïveté or whatever you like, but having "been there and done that" once before, and knowing that there are things out there that nobody has seen in an area or suspects are in an area maybe gives a different perspective. So, I will bid you guys Adieu. Good luck in your future finds.

 

[unclemac]

Mexican Volcanic Stone Molcajete Grinding Bowl | eBay

this is just getting silly....

 

[Bow Only]

There has always been an apparent influence and relationship between nearly identical artifacts in the southeast and Central America, so it isn't much of a stretch to link them. This wasn't a complete molcajete; the pestle was missing and replaced with a smooth rock. This wasn't a "lost" item, but rather some sort of a cache. Fun stuff!

If you could further expand on this, I've studied the Mississippian Culture and even the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex. What identical artifacts are both in the southeast and Central America? If you say the maces, masks, or headdresses, those are only found on large mound complexes and are all Mississippian era finds. That's a far cry from a logged area in the middle of nowhere that seems to predate ceramics.

One could argue that the funeral wares at the Buck Mound most certainly had Meso-American influence, but you do understand the quandary the Buck Mound created? It is far from "normal."

 

[The Grim Reaper]

So you are admitting to digging Burials and removing the artifacts. Was this done by the state or just you and some guys digging Mounds.

 

[tonykidd]

If you could further expand on this, I've studied the Mississippian Culture and even the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex. What identical artifacts are both in the southeast and Central America? If you say the maces, masks, or headdresses, those are only found on large mound complexes and are all Mississippian era finds. That's a far cry from a logged area in the middle of nowhere that seems to predate ceramics.

One could argue that the funeral wares at the Buck Mound most certainly had Meso-American influence, but you do understand the quandary the Buck Mound created? It is far from "normal."

I can only speak for what we've found. It is apparently pre-ceramic, and I can't explain it. Just because something hasn't been discovered yet or seen in an area doesn't make it any less real. Hell, last year the Clovis theory that people had banked entire careers on was blown out of the water (no pun intended) by the discovery at Page-Ladson outside of Tallahassee. They sound hysterical now, and are still desperately clinging to what they built their careers on, and watching it slip away.
There is a great thread here on this site where Mayan influences are debated. I'm not at all saying there is a Mayan influence here, but a basalt bowl is definitely not from here (although if you read the thread someone comments about one being found in Florida). Nor do I think it was directly brought to this site from Meso-America. I think it was traded for by this particular band of Indians because they wanted it, simple as that. I'm off-topic.
I mainly see the influence in Mississippian era artifacts, to be sure. The different motifs and figures are too similar to be coincidental, in my opinion. Now, where it originated I can't say. I brought this up with an archaeologist about a year ago when we found a stone bird effigy that looked to have a central American influence:
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The ideas and theories seem to be set in stone, and until something concrete is discovered, the influence will be dismissed or just ignored. When we get the analyzed results of the contents of the bowl, it will tell the tale. I myself have no doubt about the age.

 

[tonykidd]

So you are admitting to digging Burials and removing the artifacts. Was this done by the state or just you and some guys digging Mounds.

No, if you read the reports it was all done legally but how it happened was very strange. The Mound complex was owned by the State of Florida, but 3 mounds were on private property of two different landowners. Mound 3, the burial mound, was on the property of a family friend. He wanted it removed because it was in the way of the planned expansion of his shop. He owned a land clearing service, so the expansion of his warehouse was important and the mound was in the way. He tried to make a deal with the State, but they reneged and made him mad. He went ahead with the removal of the burial mound one day, and began hauling loads of dirt to customers. A customer called the Sheriff's Office when they found some human remains, and after some investigating the Sheriff's Office determined that they were old and suggested the customer call an archaeologist. Instead, the customer called the owner of the mound who had supplied them with the dirt. He, in turn, and knowing our family was interested in artifacts, called my father. We, of course, were thrilled. We began excavating and doing as much as we could do as avocationals. We were working from the side in, on basically the sheer face of a mound that had been almost cut in half. It was very cool. We unearthed six burials, then called in Calvin Jones, a well known and very respected state archaeologist who we then introduced to the landowner. The landowner eventually came around and allowed the continued excavation, but in a time frame that was way too short to do a complete and extremely thorough investigation. Being involved in that and watching the techniques and discoveries from inches away was unforgettable. One of my favorite memories was standing next to the sheer face and seeing a hint of green just above my head, and tentatively poking it. It was some sort of deteriorating fabric, and hundreds of pearl beads showered down on my head. Quite amazing. I appreciate your concern for my seeming illicit activities and your need to try to discredit me, but I wasn't born yesterday. I've got nothing to hide, so poke away.

 

[tonykidd]

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

That's my favorite part as well.
Fortunately, this was done pre-1990, when the law was enacted. The same practice would be illegal today, even on private land.
You'd probably be surprised to know the number of Indian mounds that were pushed over and plowed under in the fields around here years ago. There are also plenty that are undocumented on private land. You won't catch me digging in them.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Not trying to discredit you at all. Just making sure it was all on the up and up for this site. We don't need grave robbers on here boasting about it. It's not good for the site or the other members. If it was all done legally then that's fine.

 

[Tpmetal]

loving this tony, I love when peoples realities get shattered.... so I will patiently wait for your tests and to see what the critics have to say then. Keep on posting those finds I want to see more! Don't let them discourage you.

 

[Charl]

So you are admitting to digging Burials and removing the artifacts. Was this done by the state or just you and some guys digging Mounds.

I think the Native American Grave Protection and Repatriation Act(NAGPRA)makes it illegal to excavate graves and retain the artifacts. Museums are being required to return burial goods to associated tribes, if there are tribes that can show cultural association.

https://www.nps.gov/archeology/tools/laws/nagpra.htm

 

[tonykidd]

I think the Native American Grave Protection and Repatriation Act(NAGPRA)makes it illegal to excavate graves and retain the artifacts. Museums are being required to return burial goods to associated tribes, if there are tribes that can show cultural association.

https://www.nps.gov/archeology/tools/laws/nagpra.htm

You are correct. We've been through all of that, even going so far as to meet with the tribal council leaders of both the Seminole Nation and Miccosukee Indians, and they inspected our artifacts. Since they are prehistoric, they have no known tribal or cultural affiliation and therefore there is no claim of ownership with any tribe or clan. Most modern tribes are an amalgam of many others, and although they share similarities in customs and rituals with other tribes nationally, none of them claim affiliation with others. Apparently there is also an ongoing DNA typing being sponsored by the Mormon church, and it's my understanding that they are attempting to make a connection between the American Indians and the lost tribes of Israel. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

loving this tony, I love when peoples realities get shattered.... so I will patiently wait for your tests and to see what the critics have to say then. Keep on posting those finds I want to see more! Don't let them discourage you.

No realities shattered here. Tony actually brought all of this skepticism on himself. His very first post about any of this was a group of obvious modern India Agate Points that you can buy on EBay for less then a buck each. He not only posted that he dug them on this site, but he defended them vehemently that they were real, ancient artifacts. Unfortunatley, he lost a lot of credibility among collectors such as myself who have collected for over 50 years because of this incident. Almost all experienced collectors nowadays know how to spot these obvious fakes since they have flooded the market in the past 15 years or so. That makes me wonder why I guy who says he 40 years of experience didn't recognize them as such. I do understand now that he has been talking to another member and finally came around to the idea that they are modern and had to be planted there. So that brings up the possibility of other items being planted there. How or why we may never know, but if someone went to all the trouble to hike all the way out there and plant fake Points they could plant other items as well.

 

[tonykidd]

No realities shattered here. Tony actually brought all of this skepticism on himself. His very first post about any of this was a group of obvious modern India Agate Points that you can buy on EBay for less then a buck each. He not only posted that he dug them on this site, but he defended them vehemently that they were real, ancient artifacts. Unfortunatley, he lost a lot of credibility among collectors such as myself who have collected for over 50 years because of this incident. Almost all experienced collectors nowadays know how to spot these obvious fakes since they have flooded the market in the past 15 years or so. That makes me wonder why I guy who says he 40 years of experience didn't recognize them as such. I do understand now that he has been talking to another member and finally came around to the idea that they are modern and had to be planted there. So that brings up the possibility of other items being planted there. How or why we may never know, but if someone went to all the trouble to hike all the way out there and plant fake Points they could plant other items as well.

I never came around to the fact that they were modern, I asked what he was seeing to assume that they were modern. The large point is not at all uniform like the obvious fakes I've since studied. In the future, I do know that I will never contact that particular individual again, especially since he didn't have the decency to even respond to an email. They will be inspected in person by arguably the most knowledgeable expert in the U.S. on notched points in March. I'm exhausting every resource for these artifacts. As far as planting, I still cannot see any possible way, unless it was done prior to the previous trees being planted decades ago, on a remote, inaccessible site. The effort would have been Herculean. It will all be moot with two simple lab test results: the carbon dating of a piece of hafted wood and the spectrometer results of the contents of the basalt molcajete bowl. I'm just looking for answers, I've given you all the pertinent information I can. If those two tests come back as being modern, or even the last 100 years, I'll stand on a soapbox and proclaim that I am an idiot and got completely fooled. If they come back as I suspect, which is thousands of years old, then we have a major quandary with accepted theories.

 

[theviking]

loving this tony, I love when peoples realities get shattered.... so I will patiently wait for your tests and to see what the critics have to say then. Keep on posting those finds I want to see more! Don't let them discourage you.

Well aren't you just full of sunshine. Do you usually make it a habit of defending people who post obvious fakes, or do you just not know any better? Educate yourself on Artifacts from North America before your reality gets shattered.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I never came around to the fact that they were modern, I asked what he was seeing to assume that they were modern. The large point is not at all uniform like the obvious fakes I've since studied. In the future, I do know that I will never contact that particular individual again, especially since he didn't have the decency to even respond to an email. They will be inspected in person by arguably the most knowledgeable expert in the U.S. on notched points in March. I'm exhausting every resource for these artifacts. As far as planting, I still cannot see any possible way, unless it was done prior to the previous trees being planted decades ago, on a remote, inaccessible site. The effort would have been Herculean. It will all be moot with two simple lab test results: the carbon dating of a piece of hafted wood and the spectrometer results of the contents of the basalt molcajete bowl. I'm just looking for answers, I've given you all the pertinent information I can. If those two tests come back as being modern, or even the last 100 years, I'll stand on a soapbox and proclaim that I am an idiot and got completely fooled. If they come back as I suspect, which is thousands of years old, then we have a major quandary with accepted theories.

So even after all the evidence presented to you on that thread, with pictures, links, Joshua's very precise posts and close up pictures to show you the obvious drilling technique used, and nearly everyone that posted there except for mogi and tp something or other telling you they are India Points and you still think these may be real ancient artifacts?

 

[Jeff H]

Pier 1 tribe?

That was a real LOL.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Thanks.