Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

A number of years ago Roger Newkirk, a well respected Dutch Hunter....from Texas, met met Chuck Kenworthy for lunch in Apache Junction. At the meeting, Chuck told Roger that he had hired Eugene Lyon, the man who found the documents that led to the Atocha, and that he was the one who found the "King's Code" for him.

Roger had tried to get into contact with Professor Lyon for confirmation, but had never made the connection. I told him I would also try, and perhaps between the two of us we would get lucky.
I did get lucky, and had a very nice conversation with him, probably lasting 20 min. or so.

He told me he had had one phone contact with Chuck who wanted to know if he had any information concerning a specific sunken gallion in the, Caribbean that Chuck was looking for. I asked him, specifically, if he had searched for the "secret" code of the Spanish King.

Professor Lyon gave me an emphatic no. He had never looked for such a code, found one, or even heard of it. That ended any trust, for me, in Kenworthy's claims. His primary interest was sunken treasure.

Just take another look at paragraph 4.....Does it seem logical to you that such a code would have been made LAW, meaning thousands of claims in the New World had to adhere to it, and yet not one copy of such a document has ever been found?

It was created to sell Kenworthy books.

Good luck,

Joe
_________________________________

Here is one of Roger's posts on the subject:

Roger Post subject: Eugene Lyon ProfilePosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:23 pm


Part Timer

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm
Posts: 329 I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".

Eugene Lyons is a very respected researcher and archaeologist in his field. He has served on several Museum Board Of Directors and has been on the teaching/research staff of several universities. He has been recognized by the King of Spain, the Dominican Republic President, and a number of recognized organizations. I would believe that his credentials and integrity are excellent and he did not "lift" documents from the archives and maintain this level of recognition. Eugene worked in these archives for 20 yrs and would not have jeopardized his access to them.

If you would like to read a little further on Eugene Lyon, check out these web sites:

Eugene Lyon - Director of Center of Historic Research at Flagler College, St. Augustine, FL (Retired professor)
http://www.staugustine.com/flagler/lyon.shtml

Eugene Lyon - Mel Fisher Museum Board of Directors
http://www.melfisher.org/genelyonboard.htm

Eugene Lyon - Amelia Research & Recovery LLC
http://www.ameliaresearch.com/pages/crew.htm

Roger
______________________________________

There is a lot of information on the subject on the LDM Forum. Just do a search for "Lyon".

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....p?f=1&t=653&p=9146&hilit=Kenworthy+lyon#p9146

 

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[Springfield]

Thanks, Joe. Kenworthy's pulp book claims (yes, I have all his books too) seem to have formed a bedrock of belief for many argonauts, despite the glaring lack of any sort of validation of his so-called 'King's Code'. Of course, my skepticism is hotly contested by the true believers who post in other catagories on TreasureNet, even though nothing has come from these fantasy discussions short of a burning of bandwidth. When a guy like me, many of whose beliefs tend to land out of comfort zones for many, shows doubt about 'treasure theory', well, ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Kenworthy's fans have become almost cult-like. No one seems to be able to see the logic problems connected with the "Kings Code". Not one treasure hunter, or anyone else for that matter, has been able to produce a single authenticated historical document with those "instructions" written on them.

Having seen the CD of Kenworthy explaining how he "solved" the Stone Maps, I am left with the same feeling as most of the people who attended that farcical show.........I also was embarrassed for the man.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal Croves wrote <in reply to our mutual friend Cactusjumper>

I think a more important question is "which book about Spanish treasure symbols were they describing?"... on Garry's link.

There were only two books on Spanish treasure symbols that were available at that time as far as I know;

Early Spanish Treasure Signs and Symbols by William Mahan, circa 1963, based on his research on Padre Island and elsewhere,
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Spanish-treasure-Signs-symbols/dp/B0007EHEGW
and
Early Spanish Treasure Signs and Symbols by Dr D.B. O'Higgins, circa 1920 <may be earlier> based mainly on research in Latin America

Both are scarce, the second especially so and I am still looking for a copy. From what I have been told (cannot confirm) the information in both of these books is at variance with what Kenworthy has assigned for meanings, but that is purely hearsay as I cannot confirm or disprove it. If I were to place bets, my money would be on Mahan's work as the book being referred to in the document on Garry's site.
Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper/Oroblanco
Absolutely amazing information that you are sharing. Every time I think that I am getting caught up with my reading list something new surfaces. Thank you both! Let me see if I can dig up a copy of either book.. it would answer many questions. I wonder if Mike Kenworthy has anything to offer regarding his fathers research? Chuck certainly had the respect of a few educated professionals.

 

[gollum]

Kenworthy's fans have become almost cult-like. No one seems to be able to see the logic problems connected with the "Kings Code". Not one treasure hunter, or anyone else for that matter, has been able to produce a single authenticated historical document with those "instructions" written on them.

Joe,

I don't know if I would call it "cult like", but unlike the great majority of Treasure Hunting Experts out there, Chuck Kenworthy actually found treasures. We've been over the finds several times, and they don't need to be repeated here. Its not just me or my good friend that says so. Another close friend of Chuck's. A man named Dr. Lambert Dolphin. He was the head Physicist at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) for almost thirty years. To this day. Lambert speaks very highly of CK.

http://ldolphin.org/rpl/ch5.html

Lambert was with Chuck, along with other highly placed members of SRI, namely Bill Beatty, SRI's Senior Mining Engineer. In answer to Joe's statement about why no other treasure hunters have come up with the "King's Code" information. How many other treasure hunters have researched documents pertaining to land based treasures in Seville, Mexico City, or any of the other Archives? 99% of every treasure research project involves looking for ship manifests, maritime hearings wherein lie the locations of sunken ships, and everything else involving TREASURE ON SUNKEN SHIPS. Kenworthy didn't do any of this himself. He threw a bunch of his money around to archivists all over the world. I (personally) have never heard a name mentioned. I can only go by what he wrote, which was that he started receiving copies of documents from several archives. I know what your friend said, and can't vouch for what was or was not said. I haven't spoken with Dr. Lyon about the subject (Joe, I assume you did get the chance to speak to him). Maybe I will get the chance some time.

Mike

PS

Chuck's son is named Charles/Chuck "Tiger", and the subject of treasure hunting is a very sore one with the family (I don't know that it would be proper for me to expound on that).

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

There are times when I repeat stories that I have heard. When I do, I give the source crediit.

When I say I talked to the original source, you can take it to the bank. While I may be mistaken in what I conclude, I don't ever lie. You may also take that to the bank. More than a few people have disputed what I have claimed as fact. Each and every time, I can bring the source to the table, except for the few times they have wished to stay out of the conversation.

You may assume whatever you wish. I did talk to Professor Lyon, and he did not provide Kenworthy with the "King's Code" as Chuck claimed to Roger. Like you, I will always try to contact the best source, if they are still alive and have done so many, many times.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I have never thought that you have lied in any discussions we have ever had. While I don't know you personally, I have always given you the benefit of the doubt in anything you have claimed (whether you provided proof or not).

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Gollum,
"Chuck's son is named Charles/Chuck "Tiger""

Do you know if Chuck had two sons? His book is dedicated to: "Also to my son Michael, "Mountain Man Mike," whose alerness energy and dedication has located numerous Spanish/Mexican treasure trail monuments."

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

You will find a little more here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forum/shipwrecks/archives/treasurehunting/19990808/messages/1000404.shtml

The Roger mentioned is Roger Newkirk, who I mentioned in an earlier post.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I also do not believe in the existence of such a "Kings Code".
Nor am I trying to defend any claims made by Kenworthy about Dr. Lyon having given him a copy of the codes.
But having read and re-read the accounts of what Roger was told.
I can only see where Kenworthy claimed that the codes he had were originally obtained as copies of Lyon's research.
Not necessarily from Lyon himself.
Could Kenworthy have simply been wrong as to the original source,from which his copies were made, being Lyon ?

Regards:SH.

 

[gollum]

Hal,

Chuck A. had seven children if memory serves me correctly. If I am not mistaken, Chuck N. was the most involved in treasure hunting.

Mike

 

[gollum]

I also do not believe in the existence of such a "Kings Code".
Nor am I trying to defend any claims made by Kenworthy about Dr. Lyon having given him a copy of the codes.
But having read and re-read the accounts of what Roger was told.
I can only see where Kenworthy claimed that the codes he had were originally obtained as copies of Lyon's research.
Not necessarily from Lyon himself.
Could Kenworthy have simply been wrong as to the original source,from which his copies were made, being Lyon ?

Regards:SH.

If Chuck actually told Roger that he received the documents from Dr. Lyon, and Dr. Lyon was telling Joe the truth, the Kenworthy must have lied for whatever reason.

I think it is also just as possible that Dr. Lyon might have gotten some heat from the Fishers. See, at the time he was being paid to research the Spanish Archives for the Fisher Family. If he was also taking money from Kenworthy for doing the same research, that could very well have been seen as a conflict of interest by the Fisher Family. A good reason for him to deny ever having done any research for Kenworthy. Also a good reason for Kenworthy to write in his books that he received the documents from more than one anonymous archivists, with no mention of Dr. Lyon.

There are a few possibilities, but Tiger's not talking and Chuck A. has passed.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal Croves wrote

What I find confusing is that several on this site have dismissed Kenworthy's explaination of the lines and dots that make up the "trail" as an invention, however the stones predate Kenworthy's work. If the stones are a hoax then just where did the artist source the use of this very specific feature? Any ideas? Perhaps O'Higgins book will provide a few answers.

Barry Storm had included some treasure symbols in his book which came out 1939 (Trail of the Lost Dutchman) on page 102, without any explanation as to where he got his info either but it does predate the stones discovery. I do not own O'Higgins book but perhaps it was the source used to get the idea for specific symbols? I would appreciate if you would share what you find, whether it has symbols which conforms to or does not conform to the symbols found on the stone tablets.

What is odd concerning Kenworthy and the Kings code (for me) is not so much that his claimed source has proven not true, but that some DO confirm that a Kings code did exist, adding that it was the laughingstock of Europe at the time. As I have not found any source to confirm that there ever was a Kings code, nor any European reference that alludes to it, I wonder where it originates? Is it purely an invention of Kenworthy's, and if so, what were Mahan and O'Higgins basing their research on? Did Kenworthy get his source info from Mahan and-or O'Higgins?

More questions than answers (as usual) but perhaps some progress can be made.
Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

Oroblanco,
If there is anything in that title that can help us to unwrap this mystery I will certainly share it here on this site. I am having a difficult time dismissing Kenworthy's work as it seems logical enough. And he had a few influential friends who I don't believe would have associated themselves with a charlatan. He does however admit to investing money in his researchers which is always something to be considered. Give it a week and we should have some insight into the book.

 

[kanabite]

hi Oro,
guess i might as well say something here that i have long been suspect of .
kind of in a hurry , and not sitting anywhere close to my research so it is possible someone may have to correct my assumptions .i have long thought that the source for one of kenworthy's last books ,think it is called lost treasures of old Mexico or something , was the codex Mendoza / BTW not sure if you could call it the kings code , cause the king never got his translation , i believe the french seized the kings copy on the high sea . but Mendoza himself had a copy . and back then it would have been just connecting the dots to find the more ancient places that the goodies had come from for who knows how long .
also i read once that the tribute role in the mendoza codice is not a complete work .
sure would have been a plus for the Spanish to find the places the shinny stuff had been coming from, as appose to wandering around looking for virgin ground to mine . oooops I got to go , working nights for the next little while , but always a pleasure to talk to you ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal Croves wrote

What I find confusing is that several on this site have dismissed Kenworthy's explaination of the lines and dots that make up the "trail" as an invention, however the stones predate Kenworthy's work. If the stones are a hoax then just where did the artist source the use of this very specific feature? Any ideas? Perhaps O'Higgins book will provide a few answers.

Barry Storm had included some treasure symbols in his book which came out 1939 (Trail of the Lost Dutchman) on page 102, without any explanation as to where he got his info either but it does predate the stones discovery. I do not own O'Higgins book but perhaps it was the source used to get the idea for specific symbols? I would appreciate if you would share what you find, whether it has symbols which conforms to or does not conform to the symbols found on the stone tablets.

What is odd concerning Kenworthy and the Kings code (for me) is not so much that his claimed source has proven not true, but that some DO confirm that a Kings code did exist, adding that it was the laughingstock of Europe at the time. As I have not found any source to confirm that there ever was a Kings code, nor any European reference that alludes to it, I wonder where it originates? Is it purely an invention of Kenworthy's, and if so, what were Mahan and O'Higgins basing their research on? Did Kenworthy get his source info from Mahan and-or O'Higgins?

More questions than answers (as usual) but perhaps some progress can be made.
Oroblanco

Roy,

I was the one who wrote that.......kinda. I was quoting Simon Singh, one of the best crypologists in the world. It comes from his book, "THE CODE BOOK: The Science of Secrecy from Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography". From pages 28-29 he writes this:

[Towards the end of the sixteenth century the French consolidated their codebreaking prowess with the arrival of Francois Viete, who took particular pleasure in cracking Spanish ciphers. Spain's cryptographers, who appear to have been naive compared with their rivals elsewhere in Europe, could not believe it when they discoveed that their messages were transparent to the French. King Philip II of Spain went as far as petitioning the Vatican, claiming that the only explanation for Viet's crypanalysis was that he was an "archfiend in league with the devil".

Philip argued that Viet should be tried before a Cardinal's Court for his demonic deeds; but the Pope, who was aware that his own cryptanalysts had been reading Spanish ciphers for years, rejected the Spanish petition. News of the petition soon reached cipher experts in various countries and Spanish cryptographers became the laughing stock of Europe.]

Everyone was reading Spanish cyphers (codes). Considering how transparent their codes were, it becomes even harder to imagine that "The King's Code" could have remained out of sight and secret for so long.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal Croves wrote

And he had a few influential friends who I don't believe would have associated themselves with a charlatan.

I agree, but would add one word to that sentence - "...would have knowingly associated themselves with a charlatan." A person of very high intelligence and outstanding character may well be taken in by a charlatan, and this continues to this very day. I look forward to hearing what you discover, thank you in advance.

hi Oro,
guess i might as well say something here that i have long been suspect of .
kind of in a hurry , and not sitting anywhere close to my research so it is possible someone may have to correct my assumptions .i have long thought that the source for one of kenworthy's last books ,think it is called lost treasures of old Mexico or something , was the codex Mendoza / BTW not sure if you could call it the kings code , cause the king never got his translation , i believe the french seized the kings copy on the high sea . but Mendoza himself had a copy . and back then it would have been just connecting the dots to find the more ancient places that the goodies had come from for who knows how long .
also i read once that the tribute role in the mendoza codice is not a complete work .
sure would have been a plus for the Spanish to find the places the shinny stuff had been coming from, as appose to wandering around looking for virgin ground to mine . oooops I got to go , working nights for the next little while , but always a pleasure to talk to you ....

Thank you for the tip, now have a name to work with which does help. It seems perfectly logical that there must have been requirements for marking mining claims just as we have today, but there has been a great deal of misinformation widely circulated that getting to the truth of the matter has become problematical. It is good to see you posting again amigo, I hope all is well with you and looking forward to your posts. One last thing, don't work too hard - you know how bad that makes the rest of us look!

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I was the one who wrote that.......kinda. I was quoting Simon Singh, one of the best crypologists in the world. It comes from his book, "THE CODE BOOK: The Science of Secrecy from Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography". From pages 28-29 he writes this:

[Towards the end of the sixteenth century the French consolidated their codebreaking prowess with the arrival of Francois Viete, who took particular pleasure in cracking Spanish ciphers. Spain's cryptographers, who appear to have been naive compared with their rivals elsewhere in Europe, could not believe it when they discoveed that their messages were transparent to the French. King Philip II of Spain went as far as petitioning the Vatican, claiming that the only explanation for Viet's crypanalysis was that he was an "archfiend in league with the devil".

Philip argued that Viet should be tried before a Cardinal's Court for his demonic deeds; but the Pope, who was aware that his own cryptanalysts had been reading Spanish ciphers for years, rejected the Spanish petition. News of the petition soon reached cipher experts in various countries and Spanish cryptographers became the laughing stock of Europe.]

Everyone was reading Spanish cyphers (codes). Considering how transparent their codes were, it becomes even harder to imagine that "The King's Code" could have remained out of sight and secret for so long.

Thank you Joe for clearing that up, I could not recall whom had mentioned it but it does make sense. Virtually all countries have had requirements for marking out the boundaries of mining claims (even back to biblical times) so Spain almost certainly must have had some kind of system set up; with Kenworthy's version being questionable as to sources, it would seem that there is a real need for some research on the matter. I hope that someone is working on this, as it would go a long way to clear the air.

Roy

 

[somehiker]

Interestingly,the use of the word "cipher" has arisen once more.
As used in the "codes",are ciphers numbers,letters or symbols....or all three ?

As far as what appears on the Stone Maps,I have doubts that any are taken from this type of coding.
I have posted many photos of what can be seen in what I believe to be the proper location in the field,relative to their position on all five of Tumlinson's stones.

Here is one more...which illustrates my interest in the additional hole which seems to be present on only the "bumper photo" of the Trail Stones as found.

Plus a bonus shot which likely explains the "MEX"...rather than "MEXICO" which is present (also at a corresponding location on site) on the Priest side of the H/P Stone.

Regards:SH.

 

[natchitoches]

here is some info. on the Codice-Mendoza
http://www.oocities.org/a1ma_mia/codex/

http://www.amazon.com/Codice-Mendoza-Spanish-Kurt-Ross/dp/8476280025

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Mendoza

also know as La coleccion Mendoza and Codice Mendocino