Strength of Evidence

[bigscoop]

I know there are a lot of you out there who could write volumes on the various treasure legends discussed in these forums, but if you had to pick just a couple based on strength of existing evidence alone, which ones would you pick as the most likely to possibly still exist today?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi big scoop:

1) Tayopa

2) El Naranjal

3) La gloria pan

4) The Zimmerman gold bars

5) The German WW-2 submarine in the sea of Cortez.

6) The Apache gold bench placer

7) Capsized sailing ship just loaded with Gold and Silver bars for transport to Acapulco. Capsized in sight of land.

8-50) just more stories to be checked, all with physical substance also.

And lots more, all from Beth & Roy Decker -- Oro.--

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

That is an interesting question amigo, and gracias compadre Don Jose', Dueno el Tayopa. We all have different standards of what evidence is convincing for us, so you may well disagree on some or all of these;

1 King Solomon's Tomb <Ha! Bet you thought I was going to put "mines" right? He did say based on the evidence alone!>
2 Genghiz Khan's Tomb
3 Tomb of the First Emperor of China <not really lost of course but I can't wait to see!>
4 Tomb of Alexander the Great
5 Cleopatra's Tomb (the seventh, last and best of course)

All of these are real, historical persons, all their tombs (except one) remain un-discovered, and all were very rich in their day. King David, who may have had nearly as much gold & silver as his son Solomon, suffered the indignity of having his tomb plundered by a later king of Israel who needed money. This fact at least suggests that Solomon likely had a fairly large treasure entombed with him too.

In lost mines, sticking to the criteria;

1 Lost Dutchman mine
2 Lost Purisma Concepcion mine (this was even photographed)
3 Lost Topaz mine of Devil's Head (A US Bureau of Mines report was even done on this one)
4 Lost Standoff Bar (was well known and NOT lost 1876-78, today no one knows where it was)
5 El Naranjal

In sunken treasures

1 Atlantis (no I don't buy the Minoan-Thera theory)
2 Sunken ships - there are MANY well documented treasure ships around the world, most remain lost, a short list at
http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/treasure_ships.htm
3 The lost city of Helike

Other

1 The lost Ark of the Covenant
2 Art thefts/heists, extensive list and many very well documented (like the Nazi looting of Europe) a list on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_theft
3 Confederate gold & silver, vanished at the end of the Civil War
4 Robberies here are some large ones (partly recovered) http://www.2spare.com/item_60496.aspx

I could go on here with a lot more, but you asked for only a few - I get the impression that you may believe there are only a few that are true, and remain un-found Bigscoop? There are literally thousands amigo, it would fill books just to list them; in fact there is a 'US Treasure Atlas' series and it required ten books just to list the lost treasures (and ghost towns) of the USA alone! To find any one of them requires research (homework) and luck.

I would be interested in reading your list Bigscoop too if you would not mind sharing, thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[bigscoop]

I know there are a lot of you out there who could write volumes on the various treasure legends discussed in these forums, but if you had to pick just a couple based on strength of existing evidence alone, which ones would you pick as the most likely to possibly still exist today?

Wow guys! I'm Impressed! But I guess I should have asked, "the more notable, or classic legends within the U.S.?" My oversight. I'm from a very small dot on the U.S. map and sometimes when I post things I often forget that the internet is an international crowd. Also, I guess when I hear "treasure legends" or follow them in these forums it's usually in reference to those in the U.S. As for me, my interest in these more notable U.S. legends only goes as far arm chair entertainment and personal curiosity.

Oroblanco, in terms of the entire world, I'm sure there's many that are real. But of those classic legends within the U.S., as of today, I'm gonna have to stick with with very few. However, I hope I live long enough to find out that I'm wrong and I sincerely support everyone in their pursuit of these legends. I think it's all very fascinating and I love to see the passion being poured into these pursuits. "Live the adventure!" I always say. "The adventure is 90% of the fun & real value anyway."

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,
I just peeked at your profile but it doesn't say what your state is, and I don't care to put you on the spot that way - so may I ask what state would you be interested in, if there were any good lost treasures to hunt for there? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[bigscoop]

Hola amigo,
I just peeked at your profile but it doesn't say what your state is, and I don't care to put you on the spot that way - so may I ask what state would you be interested in, if there were any good lost treasures to hunt for there? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

At presnt I am stranded in Indiana, parents (both 83), father has advancing dementia & heart issues, mother has bad knees, brothers and sisters live out of state. I was close & single so I moved (got voted) back home to do 24/7 care, home/yard maintenance, etc., back in 2007. The goal/plan was to get them to Florida in the same gated retirement community where my sister lives but conditions kept getting worse and now it is out of the question, so here I am, in Indiana, "the worst place on earth for someone with a treasure hunting hobby." In 2006 I logged 77'000 miles of travel pursuing my hobby, last year I logged only 1200, so huge change to my world. Recently came back to TNet just so I could stay in touch with the hobby. Have plans to do a Michigan trip in July (if I can get coverage here) for a week but that is about the limit to my traveling for now until things change here, which is very unlikely. At present it is very rare that I can get away for more then a few hours at a time. So, hence this particular question, gives me something to do once the day has come to an end here and I have some quite time. It is absolutely killing me not being able to pickup and go at the drop of a hat like I use to do. Just trying to keep the juices flowing. And if I don't get into the water soon and hear some "beep, beep" I'm going to have to buy myself a punching bag! Hope this explains my sudden popping up on Tnet and some of the recent post. Suddenly I'm in extreme envy of everyone who's still pursuing their passion for the hobby. I'm sure there's a lost gold mine somewhere in my parent's small Indiana back yard but I just haven't found it yet, and believe me, I've looked! lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy: You posted Atlantis, ?? It is no longer lost, remember we found it in here. We already have identified it's site. It is at the junction of the three plates, the North American, African, and the European Eurasian one. Actually in the Terceira rift.

It is just about where ancient legends place it, and of about the same size.

Now get Big scoopp to dive on it, only 12,000 ft deep so a scuba should be ok, he he he

You can sit in for him while he's doing it. Also congratulate him for doing a very tough, thankless job and suggest that he in turn suggest to the other family members that they contribute a bit of $$$ to help cover the expenses and provide a live in nurse from time to time.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Hola amigo,
I just peeked at your profile but it doesn't say what your state is, and I don't care to put you on the spot that way - so may I ask what state would you be interested in, if there were any good lost treasures to hunt for there? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

At presnt I am stranded in Indiana, parents (both 83), father has advancing dementia & heart issues, mother has bad knees, brothers and sisters live out of state. I was close & single so I moved (got voted) back home to do 24/7 care, home/yard maintenance, etc., back in 2007. The goal/plan was to get them to Florida in the same gated retirement community where my sister lives but conditions kept getting worse and now it is out of the question, so here I am, in Indiana, "the worst place on earth for someone with a treasure hunting hobby." In 2006 I logged 77'000 miles of travel pursuing my hobby, last year I logged only 1200, so huge change to my world. Recently came back to TNet just so I could stay in touch with the hobby. Have plans to do a Michigan trip in July (if I can get coverage here) for a week but that is about the limit to my traveling for now until things change here, which is very unlikely. At present it is very rare that I can get away for more then a few hours at a time. So, hence this particular question, gives me something to do once the day has come to an end here and I have some quite time. It is absolutely killing me not being able to pickup and go at the drop of a hat like I use to do. Just trying to keep the juices flowing. And if I don't get into the water soon and hear some "beep, beep" I'm going to have to buy myself a punching bag! Hope this explains my sudden popping up on Tnet and some of the recent post. Suddenly I'm in extreme envy of everyone who's still pursuing their passion for the hobby. I'm sure there's a lost gold mine somewhere in my parent's small Indiana back yard but I just haven't found it yet, and believe me, I've looked! lol

Although I'm sure it's very difficult, my hat's off to you for taking on the responsibility of caring for your elderly parents!

If I can give you one small bit of advice, pick a few "legends" you believe have merit (if you haven't already) and immerse any off time you have when you wish you could be out exploring in doing research on your legends. Build up a collection of pro and con documentation, make contacts by e-mail, forum, phone, etc... with folks who are interested in the same places and basically do everything you can from your home to reach the point where if/when the day comes that you've researched every aspect you can. That way, when the day comes, you'll be far more prepared than many other folks to put your feet on the ground in the RIGHT places.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

big scoop, Cubber is a very good friend and does make good sense from time to time. hehehehh

As for a good one perhaps Beth, Oro can fill you in on one that they won't have time in this life to take on. If they don't , ask El Senor Cubber or I, perhaps we can keep you busy.

How about a two legged member of the Dinosaur family about 12 ft tall? Catch two alive and --------------Fame and fortune.

You can use cubber for bait, since they obviously are carnivores.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[bigscoop]

I have weekly visiting nurses but it's just for dad's blood draws and to make sure everything is in check, an hour visit once a week.
The way I see it, they would do it for me, and even have a time or two, so I can live with the duty, I just miss being able to get out more. If I were in Arizona, Florida, somewhere on the east coast, etc., it wouldn't be so hard to take. But Indiana?

Which is kind of why I'm making some changes in my daily routines, trying to find things to occupy my free time here at the house and also to fill the personal void. I though maybe if I came across a couple of credible lost treasure legends that interested me I'd start dogging them from the house and then if I got a chance to get away I'd maybe go explore them a bit. But, I'd maybe have only a week or two all year to get away so it would have to be something fairly close, say within a 6 - 8 hour drive max. Not so far that I couldn't easily get back here in half a day if I needed to. Everything I've researched in the past is too far away, along the coastal states or out west, need to find something credible within a 500 mile radius that's worth the chase. Kind of hard to stay motivated to continue researching something that's too far away when you know the current situation could go on for several more years. So I'm just fishing around, hoping something closer to home will strike that right cord. But geeezzzz, like I said, I'm in Indiana, not exactly the best location for the situation at hand.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Bigscoop (and everyone, plus our smart-aleck Don Jose, aka Tropical Tramp),

I am sorry to hear about how things are for you and your family, you are obviously from the "old school" and don't believe in just dumping our parents. I agree with your outlook on this 100% and it says a lot about you, that you are willing to help in what may be the hardest part of life.

I wouldn't put Indiana at the very bottom of the treasure hunters lists, just think what it would be like to live somewhere that it is completely illegal to metal detect or even dig, like some European countries. So even though they may have fantastic lost treasures, they may as well be on the Moon and will slowly dissolve into the environment so no one will ever see them.

Indiana probably has a lot of small town carnivals in the summers, no? Beth & I have had some pretty good luck with carnival grounds, rodeo grounds and fairgrounds. Even little county fairs sometimes have a history of over 100 years. A lot of people won't believe it, but Beth & I got over eight pounds of silver from one little fairgrounds, and it had been "combed over" by several other detectorists - we were even told not to waste our time on it! You won't 'strike it rich' but it is excellent practice and with a little luck, profitable.

Now to get to the 'real meat' - large treasures in Indiana. It is not my 'area of expertise' but just a quick check in the US Treasure Atlas, Vol 4, we find there are some that might just light your fire a little bit.

#2 A shipment of silver bars captured from the CSA in NC by Union troops was buried near Griffith and has never been recovered. A good source to track this one down is the Official Record of the Civil War which is online at
http://digital.library.cornell.edu/m/moawar/waro.html
...also check with local Historical Societies to locate Civil War encampments, with an eye to any which were near Griffith and the end of the war.

#7A Big Jim Colosimo was a gang leader in Chicago dealing in bootlegging operations and prostitution. He was fascinated by diamonds and carried pockets full wherever he went. When he met a new passion, a showgirl named Dale Winter, he claimed that he no longer needed the accumulated gems and buried them "outside Crown Point". Rival gang leader Johnny Torrio had Colosimo liquidated in typical gangland style and the hoard of diamonds, worth an estimated $800,000 at the time, <1920> went unrecovered.

A thorough search of the Chicago newspaper archives will turn up some leads on this one, and a visit to the county courthouse in Crown Point (for Lake County) to look for landowner records of the surrounding lands - and be sure to look for property in the name of his paramour Dale Winter, as it is possible that he did not put it in his own name but used hers. Here is a site with links to many online free newspaper archives http://xooxleanswers.com/newspaperarchives4.aspx
Wiki article on Colosimo (says he was not involved in bootlegging and this was the cause of his being rubbed out)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Colosimo
Excellent article on Colosimo with photos
http://www.myalcaponemuseum.com/id50.htm

#88D In 1791 Arthur St Clair led 2000 US troops into battle with the Indians that ended in disaster, over 600 soldiers dead and scores more wounded; As the army fled the battlefield, they left their guns, cannons and equipment behind. Some of the men took the time to bury their valuables hoping to return and recover them, but they didn't. St Clair ordered the payroll (which had not yet been paid) to be buried before abandoning the field, and likewise this has never been recovered. The battle took place near Ft Wayne.
Good article on the battle
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=557
Wiki article on St Clair's Defeat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Clair's_Defeat

This is barely scratching the surface - Indiana has LOTS of great lost treasures, just have to take the time to do the research. You might be pleasantly surprised at how many supposedly "mythical" or "made up" lost treasures are factual, including right in your own back yard. There is a tremendous amount of history that just never made it into the history books - Beth & I even found a stone fort that dated to the Rev war period, <in PA> which was not listed or even mentioned in any of the 'conventional' history books, only word of mouth from the people who lived in the area. Indiana has a lot of history, and during those centuries a lot of treasure has gotten lost there. I highly recommend picking up a copy of the United States Treasure Atlas Vol 4, by Thomas P. Terry; it will give you a lot of leads to track down.
Specialty Publishing Company
PO Box 1355
Lacrosse, Wisconsin 54602

I don't know about how much gold there is to find in Indiana, I think that most gold there is 'glacial' in origins, which means brought there by glaciers from elsewhere, but still even so, some nice nuggets have been found there. To hunt glacial gold, you will need good maps of the 'terminal moraines' and try to metal detect right along the very tops of the moraines - for some reason the nuggets end up there, or detect along the gullies that have cut into the moraines. Here is a good map showing where to find these glacial moraines
http://igs.indiana.edu/geology/maps/historic/indGlacial.cfm
....you might have better luck just using a gold pan or sluice however, for some of the gold will be fine (down to flour size) and in nature only 2% of gold occurs in the form of nuggets. You might also find this pamphlet helpful for finding Indiana gold (*and diamonds)
http://igs.indiana.edu/survey/bookstore/bookstoredetail.cfm?Pub_Num=C12
<from the intro paragraph>
"Most people do not think of the Midwest as an area in which either gold or diamonds are found. The mention of gold usually brings to mind a grizzled old prospector up a gulch on a lonely mountain in Colorado or a team of gold seekers along Bear Creek near Dawson, Alaska. Indiana gold, although not plentiful, has been found in sufficient quantities mostly along streams in Morgan and Brown Counties to keep interest in recovering the yellow metal alive for more than 135 years."

You might start looking at Indiana differently once you start finding some of that yellow metal or DIAMONDS!

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I wish you well in your efforts to be helpful to your parents and you can be sure that they appreciate it; I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS here is a map showing locations in Indiana where gold and diamonds have been found (38 diamonds recorded by the IGS, many have not been reported to them however)

from
http://www.earlham.edu/~scottna/EconomicGeology.htm

Good luck and good hunting buddy, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[bigscoop]

Thanks for all the replies and info, that in itself is quite inspiring.
As for Indiana, in this state you're pretty much limited to private land and the usual city parks, etc. I have several thousand acres of state land right out my back door but I can't take a metal detector on it. Same is pretty much true of most of the waterways in Indiana. However, I do have access to hundreds of acres of farmland and I've been looking into these areas quite a bit lately, but just in terms of the usual old home sites etc., hope I might I learn of an event worthy of checking out on a few of them.

And yes, there is gold and diamonds in the rivers and streams here and just recently they changed a few laws allowing better access to the prospecting of these resources. But these are glacial deposits and the overburden here in most places is very deep. Most of the diamonds and gold are found using dredges. But I have been looking into a few locations that I know of.

Access to any of the historical locations such as the St. Clair defeat and even most of the early events around all the old forts is also strictly prohibited in about all cases. So I think for now I'm going to stick to the local private land stuff until something else comes along that trips my trigger, I'm sure that somewhere in all this farm land there's got be something in the ground that's worth a good hard chase, I just have to find what that is? I have heard tell of a couple interesting possibilities but I have to find any evidence of their actual existence other then, "he said, she said" and most of that has been very vague at best. Hard telling what I might run into eventually?

Anyway, thanks again for the replies, encouragement, and info. By the way, the rumor around here is that the Peralta Stone actually leads to my backyard. Only have a few spots of turf left so I should find that hidden mine any day now. Backhoe is on the way!

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,
I just wanted to add one thing, on St Clair's payroll; most battlefield parks (all that I have ever visited anyway) include lands that cover only where the actual fighting took place. In most cases, the various army camps, marshalling areas etc are NOT included in the parks and are thus not restricted - though probably in private hands, at least there is a chance of getting permission. With the paychest for the army, while this would not be an amazing amount of money today (in face value) the US coins of that period are quite rare and valuable. St Clair's HQ would have been behind the battle front, in fact the paychest would have been kept in the camp rather than packed along to participate in the struggle. I know, shouldn't be posting this info in public but I don't know where St Clair's army had camped the night before the battle and this would be the place where the pay chest would have been buried, or somewhere along the route of retreat after the battle on the path to the fort where the men re-grouped (just read it and can't recall the name - a senior moment). So it is very likely not buried somewhere ON the actual battlefield, but not many miles away either. This is the case with a similar incident (Braddocks payroll, buried after his defeat in PA in the 1700s) and you can only find such 'tidbits' by researching the memoirs, diaries, letters etc of people whom were involved in the actual battle. Anyway this is why I included that one as a suggestion for a good lost treasure in Indiana, there are many others, everything from a member of Jesse James gang to John Dillinger. You are on a good track if you concentrate on those local, not-well-known and smaller treasures too; a lot of folks didn't trust banks and buried their money - the old "post hole bank" system (heck I don't trust banks TODAY either) and a mason jar full of silver dollars is quite a nice treasure IMHO.

Good luck amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO: side thingie, I have been wondering who to get for typing my memoirs and the story of Tayopa, congrats.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[bigscoop]

ORO: side thingie, I have been wondering who to get for typing my memoirs and the story of Tayopa, congrats.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Send me all your notes, photos, maps, etc., and I'll be happy to do it for you.

 

[Cubfan64]

RDT - I've been making more sense lately with alot of posts

As far agreeing to be "bait" for any carnivores, my sprinting days were over back in college, so no way am I volunteering for that duty!!

bigscoop - You're right that Indiana isn't exactly a hotbed for treasure hunting ideas, and it sounds like restrictions are pretty tight around there. There's always searching farm fields for native american artifacts - I know Indiana still has alot of promise there! In addition, although it's further away than you probably want to go, you could start doing research on Upper Michigan and the fur trade and see if you can locate some old camps - I think there are legality issues surrounding finding and collecting artifacts from them, so you'd have to look all that up, but it might be a fun pasttime.

 

[Cubfan64]

ORO: side thingie, I have been wondering who to get for typing my memoirs and the story of Tayopa, congrats.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Send me all your notes, photos, maps, etc., and I'll be happy to do it for you.

Ooooooh - and I'm an EXCELLENT editor - Oro, you can forward the chapters to me for accurate proofing!!!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Beth: they seem too eager to help?? Can we trust them, say with the yeah many million dollars of the Zimmerman gold bars? I know that I can trust ORO, since he knows that I have a complete effigy of him already made with rusty pins.

Don Jose de La Mancha (el sheltered naive, chaste saint)

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose, el gringo de La Mancha wrote;

ORO: side thingie, I have been wondering who to get for typing my memoirs and the story of Tayopa, congrats.

Wow compadre - you have seen my writing, and STILL offer congrats! I am not sure whether to be flattered and honored, or to wonder if you actually read the long-winded blather that I habitually write & have lowered your standards accordingly!
Sign me honored-puzzled,
Oroblanco