Swift Silver??

[Curtis]

H Rebel,

Its all speculation, but I respectfully disagree, through the years I have posted several reasons why Swift would not go to the trouble of carrying coins into the wilderness melting them, and then carrying them back out. Number one: he could melt them on the ship they used to pirate the original coins, most ships had a forge, also used for cooking, so do it on the high seas or a deserted island. Number two: You would be taking a chance of getting wiped out going in, it was bad enough coming out. Their pack trains were large enough as it was without a bunch more of coins...200-250 pounds is about what mules could haul...etc.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

H Rebel,

Its all speculation, but I respectfully disagree, through the years I have posted several reasons why Swift would not go to the trouble of carrying coins into the wilderness melting them, and then carrying them back out. Number one: he could melt them on the ship they used to pirate the original coins, most ships had a forge, also used for cooking, so do it on the high seas or a deserted island. Number two: You would be taking a chance of getting wiped out going in, it was bad enough coming out. Their pack trains were large enough as it was without a bunch more of coins...200-250 pounds is about what mules could haul...etc.

COULD BE!

 

[KY Hiker]

I think most of the versions of journals refer to burying crowns and not generic coins. If 'dollars' are mentioned they most certainly are worth dismissing due to the supposed dates Swift was mining and/or minting coins. As I have done some more research of coins being found since 1780 through 1950s in newspaper articles in KY its interesting that most are silver, pre-1780 in date, and Spanish in origin. There are many that don't describe the coin or coins found other than 'old'. I understand that prior to our independence, Spanish, English and French coins were used throughout the colonies and were legal tender. If that is true, there would be no need for pirated loot (coins, ect.) to be re-minted into British crowns? I'm sure there is someone on Treasure.net that has knowledge of what was legal money in the 13 colonies. Of course silver bars or 'tugs' would need no minting.

 

[franklin]

I have to agree with KY Hiker, As I mentioned when someone put that in a book, the fact that he was arrested for counterfeiting and they had to release him because his coins had more pure silver(he had people that knew how to smelt) flies in the face of pirates.

Then he was also buying ships and putting them out for hauling cargo. If they were pirates they could have stopped on any deserted island and melted the stolen coins and made the new ones there (even could done it onboard) why take them down into KY and chance being killed or loosing it ...just stop at an island.

Swift and his men were smelting and making the coins down in NC on the Catawba River. Pirates that far inland will not be over-run by other pirates or government ships that way. Remember the story of the sabre fight between Flint and Fletcher and either between them or one of them had over 600,000 pieces of eight. Surely they did not make that many in Kentucky and haul them by pack mules to the Catawba Valley? Flint and Fletcher were not even the leaders unless they all shared alike the leaders should have had more pieces of eight? About 25 years ago, I contacted Michael Paul Henson and told him I was searching deeds for the land transactions of the Swift Party. I had found where at least ten of them had their homesites. If Flint and Fletcher had 600,000 pieces of eight surely the rest had a like amount. Henson said he had never thought about that angle into the treasure. I placed the maps of the homesites in Treasure Magazine for sale---------only one was purchased and I hope he has found a fortune in doubloons.

I found the home of Jefferies and had a real good metal detector deep signal only it is on Park Property and I did not get to dig. It should still be there or it could be an automobile buried in a root cellar very near the highway.

 

[Brushy Bandit]

I can only go by the information I've seen and I haven't seen anything in the journals or elsewhere that say anything but crowns. Counterfitting colonial coins is an interesting theory though. Ill let yall know when I find the caches.��

 

[KY Hiker]

Swift and his men were smelting and making the coins down in NC on the Catawba River. Pirates that far inland will not be over-run by other pirates or government ships that way. Remember the story of the sabre fight between Flint and Fletcher and either between them or one of them had over 600,000 pieces of eight. Surely they did not make that many in Kentucky and haul them by pack mules to the Catawba Valley? Flint and Fletcher were not even the leaders unless they all shared alike the leaders should have had more pieces of eight? About 25 years ago, I contacted Michael Paul Henson and told him I was searching deeds for the land transactions of the Swift Party. I had found where at least ten of them had their homesites. If Flint and Fletcher had 600,000 pieces of eight surely the rest had a like amount. Henson said he had never thought about that angle into the treasure. I placed the maps of the homesites in Treasure Magazine for sale---------only one was purchased and I hope he has found a fortune in doubloons.

I found the home of Jefferies and had a real good metal detector deep signal only it is on Park Property and I did not get to dig. It should still be there or it could be an automobile buried in a root cellar very near the highway.

Jefferies I have heard of in some versions of the journal. Fletcher and Blackburn I have heard of but never read those versions. Flint was a character out of Treasure Island... there must be more versions of the journal out there that I have not read! I definitely have never read about a sword fight or 600k in pieces of 8! So what are the sources of these versions and where can I find or read them? NC is not where Swift was from in the versions I have read, he was from Alexandria, VA. Someone steer me in the right direction please?

 

[franklin]

Jefferies I have heard of in some versions of the journal. Fletcher and Blackburn I have heard of but never read those versions. Flint was a character out of Treasure Island... there must be more versions of the journal out there that I have not read! I definitely have never read about a sword fight or 600k in pieces of 8! So what are the sources of these versions and where can I find or read them? NC is not where Swift was from in the versions I have read, he was from Alexandria, VA. Someone steer me in the right direction please?

What I have stated came from a Journal of Swift's by Michael Paul Henson. I believe he obtained a copy from Mrs. Rice who stayed at Martin's Cabin. Swift did live in Alexandria and one Jonathan Swift owned thousands of acres of land in Kentucky and was a member of Lodge 22 which was the Lodge of General George Washington. But whether the two are the same or not? I found Blackburn's homesite, Fletcher lived upon across a branch from Flint but all the way on top of a mountain ridge. Blackburn lived on a right hand branch from Flint on the opposite side of the creek up a large branch. And Jefferies lived on the top of the mountain behind Blackburn's. Guest lived down next to Walnut Cove, N.C. the others were scattered up and down the Catawba River. I have a land deed of James Fletcher and Blackburn. (Cannot remember his first name either Ambrose, Samuel or something like that. But anyway the Deed Book had been stolen and I have not been to Anson County to see if they have another copy of the Deeds?

 

[KY Hiker]

Hmmm ... Mrs Rice or was it Mrs Renfro? How did Swift of Alexandria know these folks in NC and why did he not have land along that river? As I recall Guest or Gist was the surveyor/explorer much earlier in KY like 1750? Wasn't Fletcher and Blackburn long hunters like Boon? Someone know where I can find M.P. Henson's book? Sounds like a hybrid version of the legend to me, I would like to read.

 

[franklin]

No Michael Paul Henson had the original copy when I purchased it. I no longer have it as I sold it. But his wife or son most likely still sell them. As for Gist or Guest. Nathaniel Guest was the one working with Jonathan Swift. He met in the Cumberland Gap with Daniel Boone and they had a disagreement and went their separate ways. Most likely Guest was trying to get Boone to join their band of treasure hunters. Boonesborough was built near where the mines were located. At least the fort was built where Christoper Gist, Nathaniel's father made a survey in the 1740's to 1750's and reported a wall of burnished brass and he quoted in his journal "IF this be gold it is the richest deposit ever found"

 

[KY Hiker]

Well I'm not going to argue who had the 'original' journal. As far as we all know it may not exist anymore, if it did at all. I still stand by the fact that, of the versions I have read, it was written after the fact of his travels, probably while he was searching to re-find the mine(s). With greed and paranoid behavior that many treasure hunters exhibit, it may have been destroyed or hidden away with no one knowing they had it. Henson's book was written in the early 1970s. Mrs. Rebecca Timmins thought she had the original given to her kin by Swift himself before he died. She was on the quest in the middle to late 1800's. Chances are it is a concocted story just as much as it is a true happening. The story varies so widely depending on who and where you hear it that if any of it is true its probably only some small nugget in the root of the story and all the other details added on for color later on. We are talking about a legend 260 years old now.

I would like to read the version you referred to, what is the name of the book so that I can look for it in the library.

 

[franklin]

Well I'm not going to argue who had the 'original' journal. As far as we all know it may not exist anymore, if it did at all. I still stand by the fact that, of the versions I have read, it was written after the fact of his travels, probably while he was searching to re-find the mine(s). With greed and paranoid behavior that many treasure hunters exhibit, it may have been destroyed or hidden away with no one knowing they had it. Henson's book was written in the early 1970s. Mrs. Rebecca Timmins thought she had the original given to her kin by Swift himself before he died. She was on the quest in the middle to late 1800's. Chances are it is a concocted story just as much as it is a true happening. The story varies so widely depending on who and where you hear it that if any of it is true its probably only some small nugget in the root of the story and all the other details added on for color later on. We are talking about a legend 260 years old now.

I would like to read the version you referred to, what is the name of the book so that I can look for it in the library.

They have been sold on Amazon but looks like they only had a limited amount and sold out. They may have some later. Or you may find one Ebay. Here is what the cover looks like.



They are printed by United Christian Printing Service, Louisville, Kentucky 40201 You may telephone them and see when there will be more copies.

 

[KY Hiker]

I thought that I read on here about that book/map in the book was bogus and just compiled from various versions? <<shrug>> I will look for it especially since I work in Louisville.

 

[Curtis]

If you Google Michael Paul Henson and books/publishers you might find another kind of rare/little known publisher of treasure books, been a long time...don't remember the name...but they had it in stock all the time...in fact both of his books on Swift...two different versions of the JS journal, but very similar..I think he had something like 13 versions.

There is also a version written by the last surviving member of the JS gang (lived longer than Swift..became a recluse) but it wasn't descriptive enough to lead anyone to the area from what I remember.

 

[franklin]

If you Google Michael Paul Henson and books/publishers you might find another kind of rare/little known publisher of treasure books, been a long time...don't remember the name...but they had it in stock all the time...in fact both of his books on Swift...two different versions of the JS journal, but very similar..I think he had something like 13 versions.

There is also a version written by the last surviving member of the JS gang (lived longer than Swift..became a recluse) but it wasn't descriptive enough to lead anyone to the area from what I remember.

You are probably referring to Michael Steely. He has a nice read on the subject especially the Pine Mountain area and that is where most people think the lower mines were located?

 

[Brushy Bandit]

I thought that I read on here about that book/map in the book was bogus and just compiled from various versions? <<shrug>> I will look for it especially since I work in Louisville.

This author was aware of 36 versions of the journal and lots of maps too.

 

[KY Hiker]

This is probably way late but shouldn't those various journals be discussed and compared on this forum? Seems to me that most of the problem of nothing being found over all these years is secrets and a lack of divulging information. So many individuals working alone for the past 200+ years. Most of this behavior is caused by greed or seeking some form of glory or credit. By refining down the common points of all these journals it could be deduced what was originally written and what was added on to or adapted later?

 

[shooterike]

The Swift tale is, I believe, is actually a KGC cover story based on some facts. Swift lived in Alexandria, Virginia, near George Washington. He was a merchant and owned a ship. Some of my ancestors also lived nearby, were merchants, had ships and also knew George Washington. Interestingly, a few were also Knights of the Golden Circle. I do genealogy and can prove these things. My occupation was in highway engineering and I had access to all kinds of maps not available to the public, such as ones that detailed underground mining and strip mining. Important, because of potential disasters such as cutting into deep mines and loosing bulldozers or dropping dynamite onto coal miners. NO modern highways can be built unless exactly what is underground is known. Geology maps were also very important as they detailed the types of rock and minerals in a given area. In short, the work and maps taught me that there are NO silver mines in Swift country today and there were NO silver mines then. The geology is just not there. If Swift had a lot of Spanish silver dollars in the back woods, it is because SOMEONE brought them there.

 

[franklin]

I have stated and believed all along that the story of silver mines was a cover-up for the privateering ships on the high seas. They were making some coins but the other coins came from plunder. Two men that are not in charge in no way could have had 600,000 pieces of eight. I have read and seen all of the geology reports on Kentucky. Yes there is silver but not in paying quantities most of those counterfeit coins had a lot of lead in them. The ones that had more silver content were from essay silver bars obtained in plunder.

 

[KY Hiker]

The Swift tale is, I believe, is actually a KGC cover story based on some facts. Swift lived in Alexandria, Virginia, near George Washington. He was a merchant and owned a ship. Some of my ancestors also lived nearby, were merchants, had ships and also knew George Washington. Interestingly, a few were also Knights of the Golden Circle. I do genealogy and can prove these things. My occupation was in highway engineering and I had access to all kinds of maps not available to the public, such as ones that detailed underground mining and strip mining. Important, because of potential disasters such as cutting into deep mines and loosing bulldozers or dropping dynamite onto coal miners. NO modern highways can be built unless exactly what is underground is known. Geology maps were also very important as they detailed the types of rock and minerals in a given area. In short, the work and maps taught me that there are NO silver mines in Swift country today and there were NO silver mines then. The geology is just not there. If Swift had a lot of Spanish silver dollars in the back woods, it is because SOMEONE brought them there.

If you truely believed this, then why would you bother to read this forum and not just stick to the KGC forum? I am not very informed on the whole KGC thing. I thought for some reason they are associated with confederate civil war era hidden gold and/or the KKK. I had no idea they pre-date this nations founding. Swift, if the dates are correct, was operating 100 years before the civil war.

 

[KY Hiker]

I have stated and believed all along that the story of silver mines was a cover-up for the privateering ships on the high seas. They were making some coins but the other coins came from plunder. Two men that are not in charge in no way could have had 600,000 pieces of eight. I have read and seen all of the geology reports on Kentucky. Yes there is silver but not in paying quantities most of those counterfeit coins had a lot of lead in them. The ones that had more silver content were from essay silver bars obtained in plunder.

Most likely the silver with richer amounts has been already mined. Mrs. Timmins had silver ore assayed from samples taken from Swift Camp Creek, it contained some gold as well. The problem with her not getting investors was how far they would have to dig before the silver content increased enough to make it worth while. No one seemed willing at that time (1870s-90s) to invest the time, money, and manpower to have a go at it. Probably working for a woman at that time had its stigma as well?