The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[cactusjumper]

Oral tradition passed on by elders says that what are now known as Apaches (including Chiricahuas, Mescalero's, Jicarilla, Lipan, etc.), Navajos, Yavapai's & Hualapai's all came from a large common tribe from up north but split & scattered due to infighting. Some went to the plains, some what's now New Mexico, AZ, Mexico. No, this "up north" does not support the Bering Strait ice bridge theory, "north" means what is now northern AZ. The stories also claim the original tribe came across the pacific to this area, got sick eating Colorado River fish which is why traditionalists shun fish. There is a sacred cave in the Grand Canyon. There is no legend that says they originated in China except what has come from Whites history books. Kiowa-Apaches are a mix of small groups of Lipans & Kiowas who joined for mutual protection much like the remnants of the Chiricahuas joined w/ Tarahumaris in Mexico. Navajos didn't join Pueblo tribes (a few have inter-married now) - they did trade w/ & steal from them & in some ways stole part of their religion (mostly Zuni). Most AZ/NM tribes consider Navajos the Pollack's of the Injun world - silly, drunken, immoral, bozos... much like White men but not as greedy. Their main redeeming trait today is they make nice blankets & rugs. Spaniards (& other Whites) couldn't tell a Yavapai from an Apache from a Pima from a Navajo from a Tohono O'odham from a hole in the ground & their version of history is very screwed up... of course these are the same bunch who destroyed the healing arts, technology & history of the Aztecs, Mayans & Toltecs because they weren't based in Catholicism.

Injunbro,

I believe the DNA research supports the theory that the Apache/Navajo originated in China and Mongolia. It is likely that mankind evolved from Africa and spread into Europe and Asia from there. The Bering Strait Land Bridge seems like a natural way for the Asian migration to North America and spreading from there south and east. DNA and language are good evidence for that theory.

A good book on Navajo Creation stories is, "Dine bahane': The Navajo Creation Story" by Paul G. Zolbrod.

I don't believe all bands of Apache have the same oral tradition for their origin. You would know better than I.

Good post.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Injunbro]

It's very possible the American Indian originated in Mongolia/China. The book '1421' supports that but research shows by ship not the Bering Strait. The thought of a few million (or even thousand) coming across the strait w/out killing off all the game & starving out is ludicrous... & then wandering all the way to South America & the same problem would exist @ the narrows of Panama The Continental Rift theory where the continents split after the great flood has some merit. There is more than 1 creation story among Apaches (& most other tribes). One put the 'sacred cave where man entered this world' in the Grand Canyon, another in the northern Superstitions. Personally I don't totally buy into any of the theories but think there's some truth in many & a lot of BS also... sort of like get any number of people to tell the same story & all will come out somewhat different.

 

[cactusjumper]

It's very possible the American Indian originated in Mongolia/China. The book '1421' supports that but research shows by ship not the Bering Strait. The thought of a few million (or even thousand) coming across the strait w/out killing off all the game & starving out is ludicrous... & then wandering all the way to South America & the same problem would exist @ the narrows of Panama The Continental Rift theory where the continents split after the great flood has some merit. There is more than 1 creation story among Apaches (& most other tribes). One put the 'sacred cave where man entered this world' in the Grand Canyon, another in the northern Superstitions. Personally I don't totally buy into any of the theories but think there's some truth in many & a lot of BS also... sort of like get any number of people to tell the same story & all will come out somewhat different.

Injunbro,

Thank you for your reply.

I happen to like Menzies' theories but don't see "boats" as the only answer as to how the Asians got here. Following mammoths, who were probably under heavy pressure by hoards of hunters, could be one of the answers.

Menzies' theory of the migration down the west side of South America and then up the east side is backed up by the archaeological evidence.....mostly arrow and spear points. I believe they eventually crossed back over into the US which is bolstered by the same type of archaeological evidence, such as arrow points found in mammoth carcasses. As I recall, there were also old fire pits that added to the mix. Guess I will have to go back and reread his books.

As far as "killing off all the game", I believe that's what kept them moving. Compare that with the near extinction of the buffalo and the effect that had on the Native American tribes. Once the mammoth and buffalo were gone/scarce, the tribes had to find another source of food. IMHO, they were not "wandering", they were just keeping up with their primary food source.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Injunbro]

Some may have came across the Bering Strait but not all, nor populated South America via Panama. Any single theory will soon have serious problems. There are ancient stone statues in South America w/ Negroid features (some w/ only 4 toes)... where did they come from? The buffalo were the main food source for the plains Indians but were slaughtered by White hide hunters & on Sheridan's orders the army set fire to the grasslands weaken the buffalo & thereby the Sioux Indians who under Red Clouds leadership defeated them. Until recent years scientific types claimed man & mammoth were not here @ the same time... until a fossilized one was found w/ a spear point imbedded in a rib (Hereford, AZ 35+ years ago). I still think there's some validity to the continental rift theory & some to the Mongolian ships, etc..

 

[EarnieP]

Clovis points (from Clovis NM area) found with mammoth skeletons some 85 years ago.

Blackwater Draw Clovis points;

http://archaeology.about.com/od/clovispreclovis/a/blackwater.htm

 

[cactusjumper]

Clovis points (from Clovis NM area) found with mammoth skeletons some 85 years ago.

Blackwater Draw Clovis points;

Blackwater Draw - 12,000 Years of Hunting in New Mexico

Earnie,

I have a number of books that discuss this point, no pun intended, along with an Asian connection, but here is another Internet site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_point

Take care,

Joe

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Some really interesting information being shared by all.

I recall watching a British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) documentary some years ago regarding the remains of a "red-haired" gentleman that had been found either on the Northwest or Northeast coast of the States and was reputed to be several hundred years old but had been preserved to some degree.

There was a hullabaloo because the Injuns said it was one of "theirs" but scientists believed it was 'proof' that it confirmed the belief that the Scandinavians or possibly Celts from Ireland (monks) had crossed the Atlantic way before Columbus. Obviously there is other 'evidence' out there, but this case was fascinating as the Injun tribe involved had great influence and it brought a civil case against the university that was responsible for the excavation as it might have been digging on 'sacred' burial grounds.

I can't remember all the details, but the long story short, Injun won and the remains were buried in a river and no tests were conducted on the body.

There is plenty that exists where it does not conform to 'accepted' history, but it doesn't mean that the Egyptians, Phonecians or even 'Atlantians' were or had visited the New World.

Negroid features exist/ed with many Asians and it is a bit simplistic to say that certain statues or idols dis/prove one theory or another. This is sometimes done at the detriment of ignoring everything else that cannot be explained away.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Simple IPUK, They will lose many benefits if it can be proven that they were not the first in America

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Donny,

I get your point, however, the Injuns beat whitey to North America by millenia. It is the whiteys amongst themselves who are still determining who out of them, got there first.

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

AS I understood it was in the thousands of years.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/science/new-dna-results-show-kennewick-man-was-native-americ

As I understand the final decision was for political convenience, not necessarily the truth.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not sure how this topic (Apaches of the Southwest) ties in with whom or which group of humans arrived in the Americas "first", but like everything that IS related, it is COMPLICATED.
The land bridge THEORY seems like a good 'pat' answer as to how the American continents got peopled. However according to geologists, there never was any "ice free corridor" down through the continent-wide glacier that covered most of Canada, making an utterly impassible roadblock to any migrations (including by mammoths, horses etc) across Canada in the right time period to fit the Bering strait land bridge theory. I have NO doubt that animals DID cross that land bridge, but only when it was relatively ice-free. The genetic differences between American species of mammoths and mastodons from their Eurasian cousins are fairly solid proof that the species must have been separated for a long enough time to become different species.

The alternate THEORY has the first Americans coming by sea, and while crossing the open oceans probably was a very bad idea circa 10,000 BC, by simply following the coastlines, and edges of the ice pack (the northern polar ice cap extended well south into the Atlantic during the Ice Age) AND with the lower sea levels, the distances from Asia, and from Europe coming from the opposite direction, were shorter. Recent DNA studies have shown that up to one third of all Amerindians have EUROPEAN ancestry, and two thirds have Asian origins.

"Great Surprise"?Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

Even these ancient Ice Age colonists were NOT the first to arrive in the Americas and make it a home either. The oldest human remains found in the Americas appear to be most closely related to the Australoid peoples, (the Aborigines of Australia) and based on where these remains have been found, must have colonized South America first!

The suggested origin of the pre-Clovis Australoid population of the Americas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman

Even if we assign the Amerindians as having come, "from China", that is no clear cut genetic closed case! There were "west Asian" (European) people living in what is today China at least by the Bronze Age:
<This one was on Forbes magazine website but has been pulled, likely due to the politically correct issues it raised but is still available as a Google cache>

DNA Reveals These Red-Haired Chinese Mummies Come From Europe And Asia

Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age | BMC Biology | Full Text

Analysis of ancient human mitochondrial DNA from the Xiaohe cemetery: insights into prehistoric population movements in the Tarim Basin, China | BMC Genetics | Full Text

Bottom line is that the Americas have been a mixing bowl of the various races and peoples over the millenia. Still are. Who got here first? It is complicated! Oh and side thing here but saying "whitey" all the time is just like saying "redskins" or "darkies" other racist epithets. You can call it PC etc but if you are going to be against racism it helps if you are not being that way yourself. Humans apparently all started out from AFRICA, although there are alternate theories as well, and spread out from there.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco


　

 

[Interested Party in UK]

AS I understood it was in the thousands of years.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/science/new-dna-results-show-kennewick-man-was-native-americ

As I understand the final decision was for political convenience, not necessarily the truth.

Don,

Millennia is thousands of years..


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Bottom line is that the Americas have been a mixing bowl of the various races and peoples over the millenia. Still are. Who got here first? It is complicated! Oh and side thing here but saying "whitey" all the time is just like saying "redskins" or "darkies" other racist epithets. You can call it PC etc but if you are going to be against racism it helps if you are not being that way yourself. Humans apparently all started out from AFRICA, although there are alternate theories as well, and spread out from there.Oroblanco

I've always thought everybody is a mixture of races, in Bible times Moses married an Ethiopian woman so it's nothing new. I'm 1/2 White & 1/2 Redskin, neither term offends me, nor does "Darkie", etc.. If it bothers others please speak up, but I find the whole concept or racism the actions of morons. We have no power over where or what color we were born & it should have no bearing on anything. Each people have their strong & weak points. Injuns have reservations & early Spanish settlers have land grants to recognize their pre-existence to the country known as USA. My native family hasn't lived on a Rez (by choice) for 3 generations yet some whine about us getting 'privileges' they don't... weird.

 

[azdave35]

I've always thought everybody is a mixture of races, in Bible times Moses married an Ethiopian woman so it's nothing new. I'm 1/2 White & 1/2 Redskin, neither term offends me, nor does "Darkie", etc.. If it bothers others please speak up, but I find the whole concept or racism the actions of morons. We have no power over where or what color we were born & it should have no bearing on anything. Each people have their strong & weak points. Injuns have reservations & early Spanish settlers have land grants to recognize their pre-existence to the country known as USA. My native family hasn't lived on a Rez (by choice) for 3 generations yet some whine about us getting 'privileges' they don't... weird.

privileges ?

 

[Injunbro]

privileges ?

I've been told as Native Americans we all get free: housing, health care, food, vehicles, gov't subsidy checks, etc.. All untrue. Some tribal members in some places get some things such as vehicles when the operators of mines on Rez lands also own stock in auto manufacturers in place of rent. Casinos on certain Rez's contribute to the local economy a bit but the White owner/operators make the lions share. If we actually got all the freebies we'd be rich instead of working for a living, the average income on a Rez is about 1/2 the national average.

 

[azdave35]

I've been told as Native Americans we all get free: housing, health care, food, vehicles, gov't subsidy checks, etc.. All untrue. Some tribal members in some places get some things such as vehicles when the operators of mines on Rez lands also own stock in auto manufacturers in place of rent. Casinos on certain Rez's contribute to the local economy a bit but the White owner/operators make the lions share. If we actually got all the freebies we'd be rich instead of working for a living, the average income on a Rez is about 1/2 the national average.

lol...maybe you should have been half pima...the ones i know live pretty high on the hog

 

[wrmickel1]

I've been told as Native Americans we all get free: housing, health care, food, vehicles, gov't subsidy checks, etc.. All untrue. Some tribal members in some places get some things such as vehicles when the operators of mines on Rez lands also own stock in auto manufacturers in place of rent. Casinos on certain Rez's contribute to the local economy a bit but the White owner/operators make the lions share. If we actually got all the freebies we'd be rich instead of working for a living, the average income on a Rez is about 1/2 the national average.

Dude I Question your even Native American, because your talking shinola.

Wrmickel1

 

[T.C.]

Simple IPUK, They will lose many benefits if it can be proven that they were not the first in America

EXACTLY!! Kennewick Man is a great example.

Then there is the story of the "red-headed giants" that lived in Nevada. They supposedly preyed on surrounding Indins and were know to be cannibalistic. Story says they were all cornered in a cave and burned to death....

 

[T.C.]

Donny,

I get your point, however, the Injuns beat whitey to North America by millenia. It is the whiteys amongst themselves who are still determining who out of them, got there first.

IPUK

I would like to know who did the Mongolians displace when they trudged across the Bering land bridge??

 

[azdave35]

I would like to know who did the Mongolians displace when they trudged across the Bering land bridge??

exactly...the Apaches whine about how whitey stole their land...they stole it from someone when they got here...the only difference is the Apache are still around to whine..the people they stole from didn't live long enough to whine